[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[Sturtzilla]

I side out Hymns against Belcher and All Spells and bring in any blue cards in my board because I know my plan is mull to Force of Will. Turn 1 combo decks and Sneak and Show are both matchups where Thoughtseize is better than Hymn, but Hymn is still strong against Sneak and Show. Spell Pierce is also good in these matchups. Either or both would be good out of the sideboard. I run Envelop in my board, so that comes in. For All Spells, all grave hate comes in even though they could be transforming into Belcher. The deck is powerful but isn't consistent, so I don't devote any special slots to beating it. If I needed to do that, I would run Mindbreak Trap or Faerie Macabre.

12 Post is a 50-50 matchup. The mono-green version is somewhat unfavorable due to the added threat of Dark Depths. Can't win 'em all. Better luck next time.

The only match up that I felt was really poor was Sneak and Show. I think I need to work on my plan for boarding there a little bit. Thanks for your take on the MU. I think the 12Post match was winnable. I think I got a little unlucky/my opponent got a bit lucky and I made a subpar call on how to move from the mid to late game. So I will try to keep that in mind for the future. Oops All Spells is awful. I don't even understand how it is a deck. More than half of the format plays Force of Will. Lots of decks play Spell Pierce, Daze, Thoughtseize... the list goes on. The last time I played against this guy, He tried to go off on T1, I Forced, on my turn, I played a Grafdigger's Cage and he scooped. Like why would you play this garbage?

[ESG]

Oops All Spells is awful. I don't even understand how it is a deck. More than half of the format plays Force of Will. Lots of decks play Spell Pierce, Daze, Thoughtseize... the list goes on. The last time I played against this guy, He tried to go off on T1, I Forced, on my turn, I played a Grafdigger's Cage and he scooped. Like why would you play this garbage?

Many people are attracted to strategies that feel broken. When you kill your opponent Turn 1, that's a very powerful feeling. Some people want an "easy mode" for Magic, and a Turn 1 combo deck can provide that, because there typically is not much thought beyond that first critical turn. Other people -- gamblers, let's say -- get their kicks in playing a high-risk, high-reward deck. Most of the time, All Spells is putting you all-in on the first turn, so that's probably a rush for players who like that. All Spells is still one of the cheapest decks in the format, so there's that, too. I don't play MTGO, but I understand the deck is far more prominent there than in paper.

[wcm8]

This is just an idea.

Delver is by far our worst creature. I know.

Maybe we can swamp delver out for that new green dude since it puts a beating on TNN as well as other creatures in the format minus goyf.

Since this eats up our 1 drops, we can replace the hymn, which people are already complaining about, for 4 thoughtseizes so it gives us more turn 1 plays.

I agree that Delver is a bit underwhelming in this deck in comparison to RUG, but one of its major purposes is maintaining a healthy Blue count for Force of Will. If you start dropping the tempo angle for more midrange threats, then why even bother playing cards like Daze, Hymn, Stifle, etc? Might as well drop that angle of attack altogether and play BUG Cascade. 5G is going to be tough to cast in a decent timeframe, and difficult to cast in multiples. It's also yet another creature that suffers from graveyard removal.

I am well aware that TA's earlier incarnations didn't have access to Delver, but I think it's now one of the stronger elements in the deck and the second-best turn 1 play behind DRS.

Realistically, you're not going to be casting Hooting Mandrills until turn 3 at the absolute earliest. In which case, perhaps you'd be better off dropping Delver for TNN if you want to mix up the threat base and play something more robust.

To be under consideration for Team America, you have to be better than the following, in roughly this order:
1. DRS
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Delver
4. V. Clique
5. Dark Confidant
6. TNN
7. Tombstalker
8. Snapcaster Mage
9. Nimble Mongoose
10. Baleful Strix
11+ Unusual sideboard creatures (Thrun the Last Troll, Kitchen Finks, Scavenging Ooze, Obstinate Baaloth, Terravore, Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake, Hidden Gibbons, etc.)

It's fun to get excited about new cards, but Team America is a collection of the best and most efficiently-costed cards in the Legacy cardpool. This deck, perhaps more than any other is going to have an extremely high barrier of entry.

[ESG]

I agree that Delver is a bit underwhelming in this deck in comparison to RUG, but one of its major purposes is maintaining a healthy Blue count for Force of Will. If you start dropping the tempo angle for more midrange threats, then why even bother playing cards like Daze, Hymn, Stifle, etc? Might as well drop that angle of attack altogether and play BUG Cascade. 5G is going to be tough to cast in a decent timeframe, and difficult to cast in multiples. It's also yet another creature that suffers from graveyard removal.

I am well aware that TA's earlier incarnations didn't have access to Delver, but I think it's now one of the stronger elements in the deck and the second-best turn 1 play behind DRS.

Realistically, you're not going to be casting Hooting Mandrills until turn 3 at the absolute earliest. In which case, perhaps you'd be better off dropping Delver for TNN if you want to mix up the threat base and play something more robust.

To be under consideration for Team America, you have to be better than the following, in roughly this order:
1. DRS
2. Tarmogoyf
3. Delver
4. V. Clique
5. Dark Confidant
6. TNN
7. Tombstalker
8. Snapcaster Mage
9. Nimble Mongoose
10. Baleful Strix
11+ Unusual sideboard creatures (Thrun the Last Troll, Kitchen Finks, Scavenging Ooze, Obstinate Baaloth, Terravore, Sower of Temptation, Gilded Drake, Hidden Gibbons, etc.)

It's fun to get excited about new cards, but Team America is a collection of the best and most efficiently-costed cards in the Legacy cardpool. This deck, perhaps more than any other is going to have an extremely high barrier of entry.

One large drawback to the Delve creatures is you can't realistically play them with Dark Confidant. That being said, I can imagine a list where Hooting Mandrills would get the nod over some of these other creatures. I wouldn't be playing it, but I think it's playable.

[Zombie]

Many people are attracted to strategies that feel broken. When you kill your opponent Turn 1, that's a very powerful feeling. Some people want an "easy mode" for Magic, and a Turn 1 combo deck can provide that, because there typically is not much thought beyond that first critical turn. Other people -- gamblers, let's say -- get their kicks in playing a high-risk, high-reward deck. Most of the time, All Spells is putting you all-in on the first turn, so that's probably a rush for players who like that. All Spells is still one of the cheapest decks in the format, so there's that, too. I don't play MTGO, but I understand the deck is far more prominent there than in paper.

If I wanted to gamble with a broken deck I'd play TES though :/

[YamiJoey]

Can we stop discussing why someone might want a deck that you consider bad but has performed well? When Rogues was first suggested and I had no way of playing a real deck I tested it out, alongside stuff like 4-horsemen. It was a very effective deck, and sugnificantly more consistent then you're making it out to be. People will play it, we don't care about it. Sometimes it will get you, most of the time we're the best deck in the format to beat it. (Or one of, at least.)

[Sturtzilla]

Can we stop discussing why someone might want a deck that you consider bad but has performed well? When Rogues was first suggested and I had no way of playing a real deck I tested it out, alongside stuff like 4-horsemen. It was a very effective deck, and significantly more consistent then you're making it out to be. People will play it, we don't care about it. Sometimes it will get you, most of the time we're the best deck in the format to beat it. (Or one of, at least.)

You make two good points. The first is that while a deck may just fold to a number of cards that are frequently played in a given metagame, people may still play the deck. The game is about more than winning or playing the "best" deck. Many will play decks that they find fun (which may or may not [here it would certainly be not] be different than my opinion) or simply have access/budget for. Not to derail the thread, but I would like to see any information on the deck Oops All Spells doing well. If I recall, Adam Prosak Top 8-16ed an SCG Open and then it has never again put up results. I would love to know if it has had more success than that. Shoot me a PM if you turn anything up. Additionally I was not speaking to the validity of Rogues or Four Horsemen... so I am not sure what that has to do with anything. The second being that we should get back onto the topic of BUG configurations, sideboards, reports... and other things BUGy.

[Dragonslayer_90]

You make two good points. The first is that while a deck may just fold to a number of cards that are frequently played in a given metagame, people may still play the deck. The game is about more than winning or playing the "best" deck. Many will play decks that they find fun (which may or may not [here it would certainly be not] be different than my opinion) or simply have access/budget for. Not to derail the thread, but I would like to see any information on the deck Oops All Spells doing well. If I recall, Adam Prosak Top 8-16ed an SCG Open and then it has never again put up results. I would love to know if it has had more success than that. Shoot me a PM if you turn anything up. Additionally I was not speaking to the validity of Rogues or Four Horsemen... so I am not sure what that has to do with anything. The second being that we should get back onto the topic of BUG configurations, sideboards, reports... and other things BUGy.

Here you go: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14079&iddeck=103567. Now stop BUGging us about irrelevant decks! lol. jk jk. I don't think my friend Sturtzilla meant to call people stupid for playing decks like Oops all spells. I think initially he was just carrying on the hilarious rant about the deck he spewed to me on the way home from our lgs on Tuesday. Even glass cannon decks like oops and belcher can put up results every now and then with the right metagame and pilot. Our lgs metagame is probably not the best for such a deck and the fact that the pilot of the deck at our lgs is not particularly good doesn't help either.

Anyways, I'll steer the thread back in the right direction. I know I said I'm taking a break from delver for a little while and I am, but that doesn't mean I'm not thinking about different ways to play BUG Delver. Currently, in my free time I've been testing a stifle list:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stifle
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Ponder
4 Wasteland
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
1 Sylvan Library
3 Tarmogoyf
3 Thoughtseize
1 Bayou

SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 2 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Marsh Casualties
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 3 Disfigure
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Engineered Plague

With what little testing I've done I feel like the deck has a lot of play and flexibility, but seems a tad underpowered compared to tap out lists. I think to answer to this problem I sense is actually upping the threat count a little more. I'm thinking of a threat suite similar to John Wiley's so that means bringing Dark Confidant back. I may even cut True-Name though since it doesn't seem as good as I want it to be. Also, one thing to note is that this deck is soft to a resolved True-Name Nemesis preboard. In otherwords I guess I'm missing Liliana of the Veil. Maybe it's possible to play 1 or two in the main? What do you guys think?

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

I am currently running 3 Dark Confidant in my deck, and I have no desire to remove them. I like the speed that BOB offers with the interactions with Sylvan Library and Brainstorm. The deck just seems faster and deadlier.

[Sturtzilla]

Here you go: http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14079&iddeck=103567. Now stop BUGging us about irrelevant decks! lol. jk jk. I don't think my friend Sturtzilla meant to call people stupid for playing decks like Oops all spells. I think initially he was just carrying on the hilarious rant about the deck he spewed to me on the way home from our lgs on Tuesday. Even glass cannon decks like oops and belcher can put up results every now and then with the right metagame and pilot. Our lgs metagame is probably not the best for such a deck and the fact that the pilot of the deck at our lgs is not particularly good doesn't help either.

Thanks for the link. I was not at all calling people stupid. I was calling the deck stupid... for that matter I still am calling that deck stupid. If a deck loses consistently to a single counter spell or piece of discard... it probably doesn't really belong in Legacy. Take that nonsense to the casual tables. Take this all for what that is worth as it is only my opinion. You were basically hyperventilating during said rant.

As for the proposed list... when I was playing Wiley's list, I really liked Confidant and was much less thrilled with TNN. I think TNN has uses but I think due to CMC and card advantage I would go with Robert. TNN is chunky... and makes me sad in combo match ups.

[YamiJoey]

My current deck:

Permanents: 15
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells: 25
4 Brainstorm
2 Disfigure
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Force of Will

Lands: 20
4 Wasteland
9 Fetchlands
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island

Sideboard
1 Deathmark
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Golgari Charm
1 Life from the Loam
1 Dismember
1 Pithing Needle
1 Bitterblossom
1 Jace Beleren
1 Liliana of the Veil

The deck feels so powerful post-board, but I'm wondering what I can do to help it feel more like it's executing a plan in G1. It seems to just be screwing around making Creatures and attacking with some countermagic support. I get that's what the deck is, but it doesn't feel like RUG Delver just making them unable to play Magic, and it doesn't feel like it used to before I played Stifle where I could outgrind Jund. Should I be cutting the Stifles for some discard, and cuting a TNN, or both? I used to have one main, one board. I love my game 2's, especially against the slower decks - I'm not sure I can lose that - and Vs Combo the deck's super powerful because it's Delver. Should I just be cutting Stifles from this build? They've sort of felt awkward.

I'll cut Stifles. :(

[Dragonslayer_90]

The deck feels so powerful post-board, but I'm wondering what I can do to help it feel more like it's executing a plan in G1. It seems to just be screwing around making Creatures and attacking with some countermagic support. I get that's what the deck is, but it doesn't feel like RUG Delver just making them unable to play Magic, and it doesn't feel like it used to before I played Stifle where I could outgrind Jund. Should I be cutting the Stifles for some discard, and cuting a TNN, or both? I used to have one main, one board. I love my game 2's, especially against the slower decks - I'm not sure I can lose that - and Vs Combo the deck's super powerful because it's Delver. Should I just be cutting Stifles from this build? They've sort of felt awkward.

I'll cut Stifles. :(

I had similar issues and feelings with my similar list posted above. What I did to change that is Cut the TNNs for a couple Dark Confidants. In initial testing I seemed to have liked this change a lot. Our deck does not abuse TNN as well as the Stoneforge decks so it often just feels like blue troll ascetic with some more upside. I think Dark Confidant is probably better than TNN for this deck in many respects so maybe cut TNN for Dark Confidant in your list as well? Also, it maybe worth fitting in some thoughtseizes as a proactive complement to Stifle.

[YamiJoey]

Is there room for cutting the TNN's and a Stifle for a Thoughtseize, then? Does that look like a deck to you?

[Dragonslayer_90]

Is there room for cutting the TNN's and a Stifle for a Thoughtseize, then? Does that look like a deck to you?

With your configuration I would worry that the deck would not have enough threats making those changes. The reason that Team America typically plays 14 creaures as opposed to RUG's 12 is because we do not have any untargettable creatures like Mongoose except for the occasional two-of TNN so we have to make up for that by having some more threats. I have known people to only play 12 actual creatures in Team, but they also usually have Liliana of the Veil maindeck in addition to Sylvan Library, which are threats in a different sense. Maybe try cutting the TNNs, a Stifle, and either move a force to the board or cut a land for Three Thoughtseize and either another Sylvan, Tombstalker, or Dark Confidant. I've been getting by with 19 lands with no three drops in my main deck. At least when not playing Liliana of the Veil maindeck I feel fine with 19 lands.

[Teknique]

Decided to play Team America at SCG Atlanta after placing 20th (6-2) at SCG Syracuse with a very similar list.
Ended up placing 17th in Atlanta, going 7-2. I'm not going to post match details because I didn't take many notes, nor do I have much time to think about it and write it up now. I can try to answer any specific questions you may have though.

List:
Creatures: (16)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dark Confidant
2 True-Name Nemesis

Spells: (26)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
3 Stifle
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
3 Ponder
2 Disfigure

Lands: (18)
4 Flooded Strand
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea

SB:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disfigure
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Force of Will
1 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Divert

Matches by Round:
1 (W): Miracles (2-1)
2 (W): UB Tezzeret (2-1) Had punishing fire package, not sure if that's standard for the deck.
3 (L): Maverick (0-2) I misplayed a few times, but it was just murder anyway.
4 (L): Tin Fins (1-2) G3 I have cage in play and thoughtseize his AD. Next turn he draws the 2nd AD, kills cage, kills me.
5 (W): Infect (2-1) G3 he almost gets there with a lone hierarch. Infect has a lot of play, and the results obviously show it
6 (W): UR Delver (2-1)
7 (W): Team America (2-0) I think this was also a stifle build
8 (W): MUD/Welder (2-0)
9 (W): RUG Delver (2-0)

For those who are curious, my losses in Syracuse were to Gerard Fabiano on Shardless BUG, and John Wiley in the stifle build mirror.

I've played miracles since before it was a real deck, but lately wanted a change of pace. This was only my 3rd event with the deck (ATL, SYR, and 1 Local) and I've never played the discard version, so I can't provide too much insight, but this deck is a lot of fun and I think a very solid competitor.

[Jo11ygrnreefer]

Quick question, how did you feel about the Dark Confidant and True-Name Nemesis in the playlist, and how they performed???

[Teknique]

Quick question, how did you feel about the Dark Confidant and True-Name Nemesis in the playlist, and how they performed???

Bob is great. The flavor text is apt. He is valuable as both bait (to clear removal and allow beaters to get through) and as a self contained engine and clock, which I'll happily throw any of the other creatures under the bus to clear the way for bob. He's never bad unless you're a turn away from dead. I can see the argument for Wiley and others starting to run 3, but I think 2 is sufficient.

TNN is in my opinion the worst card in the deck, and I'm not sure it's necessary other than to have more threats and increased blue count. It's always underwhelming when I cast it, and the matchups where it seemed best (Delver mirrors) is when you're least likely to be able to cast it, or resolve it. It usually just feels like a waste of a turn. This build is more reactive and tapping out for a 3/1 is less than stellar. Honestly, I cast it more times as counter bait so I could immediately drop drs + bob/goyf/sylvan the next turn and win.

[carnifex]

I don't think anyone could argue that the thesis might be overblown, in the end (the author admits that he may be overzealous). But this article is interesting:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Of-Tarkir.html

It's select so it should be free for those without premium membership.

What do people think about his claims regarding the impact of Treasure Cruise on BUG Delver?

[FoolofaTook]

I don't think anyone could argue that the thesis might be overblown, in the end (the author admits that he may be overzealous). But this article is interesting:

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...Of-Tarkir.html

It's select so it should be free for those without premium membership.

What do people think about his claims regarding the impact of Treasure Cruise on BUG Delver?

What exactly do you want to pull out of your list for a Sorcery speed draw 3 that you'll probably feel pressed to tap out for on turn 3 fairly often?

If I saw easy pulls from the list to get Treasure Cruise in it would be no problem but I'm not pulling Ponder for it and after that you're removing business for reload and that's usually a bad deal.

Without the 2-4 Ponders your odds on casting Treasure Cruise in a timely manner are pretty low.

[Dice_Box]

There are better options over that thing. Library, Bob, Sign in blood...