[Deck] BUG "Shardless" Control

[infiniteJ]

The correct answer to all these questions is "It depends" (2p2 rep). Depends on your build and manabase and on their build and manabase. It depends on their sideboard plan and on history.

My perspective: I play the no discard in the main list. Discard is deceptive. When you are behind on board it is terrible, and shardless often plays from behind in the early turns. Legacy's power level is so high and there are so many cantrips that spending your turn and cards to attack their hand can be counterproductive. I'm not saying it can't be good, but that on balance I like to leave it in the board. I also prefer to leave in force of will in some number in most matchups.

So I've finally settled on a list I'm pretty comfortable with but I'm having some issues working out how to sideboard. I realize some of these might be noob questions, but I'm new to legacy (only have about a year of exp) and am a total noob with this deck (only played about 20 games with it). I also realize that every situation and sideboard choice can be different depending on deck "quirks" and the way an opponent is playing/sideboarding, I'm just looking for some broad-strokes advice on these questions moving forward until I get enough exp to know exact numbers/situations. Thanks in advance!

1. When do you add extra SB discard? Only against combo?
   All of it comes in vs combo in my list. I board in usually a small number of thoughtseize vs miracles to snipe REB or top on the play. I keep in all force of wills to hard counter entreat (and occasionally jace). Do not counter terminus unless it wins the game. I don't force top blind. This is controversial. I also bring in a couple vs stoneforge decks.
2. Are there decks where Hymn is better than Thoughtseize, and vice-versa?
   Yes but I don't play Hymn. I've been running meddling mage to good success. Hymn is one of my favorite cards but I don't like the variance and the BB mana cost. Be wary of misdirection out of losset miracles, but I don't like it much vs miracles anyways.
3. Do you take out Jace against decks like ANT, RUG Delver?
   Yes. I leave in vs BUG delver, especially if they have tombstalker.
4. Do you take out Lili against Elves and D&T?
   No. I leave them in as expensive 3 mana edicts. I find lilly to be fine to good vs DNT. Just be wary of wilt leaf liege. It is only a 2 of and you can check for it with thoughtseize. Ironically, lilliana is one of the few ways most lists have to actually kill a 4 mana 4/4 outside of tarmogoyf combat. One easy way to close out games vs these decks is to deluge into lilly.
5. Do you keep FoW in against any non-combo decks? (RUG Delver or Miracles)
   Yes. Yes.
6. When do you take out the Shardless/Visions package? Any times where it's only Visions or only Shardless?
   I never board out Shardless. I think elves is the only matchup I have boarded out all the visions before. Vs combo I'm boarding out 4 decay 2 deluge sylvan sylvan a land a jace etc to bring in the meddling mage package and spot discard[/B]
7. If you must have them, Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? If not, what do you add? Extra Lili?
   Spell pierce>flusterstorm in today's meta. I don't see much storm and hitting sneak attack is huge. That said, I don't rock either.

I should

[btm10]

So I've finally settled on a list I'm pretty comfortable with but I'm having some issues working out how to sideboard. I realize some of these might be noob questions, but I'm new to legacy (only have about a year of exp) and am a total noob with this deck (only played about 20 games with it). I also realize that every situation and sideboard choice can be different depending on deck "quirks" and the way an opponent is playing/sideboarding, I'm just looking for some broad-strokes advice on these questions moving forward until I get enough exp to know exact numbers/situations. Thanks in advance!

1. When do you add extra SB discard? Only against combo?
   I MD between two and four Thoughtseizes and zero Hymns; I bring in Duress against Burn, and Duress (2-3) and any remaining Thoughtseizes against combo and Blade variants. I tend to do some Duress/Thoughtseize interchange against Miracles because looking at their hand is frequently valuable, but I'd rather use my life to draw cards with Sylvan Library
   
2. Are there decks where Hymn is better than Thoughtseize, and vice-versa?
   Storm and Sneak and Show, but Meddling Mage can help a lot in those matchups. I'm still sort of torn between Meddling Mage vs. more discard, but as others have said, Hymn's time has really come and gone. The randomness factor is real, and for ever game you steal with Hymn, you'll waste a Cascade or BB to make Brainstorm marginally worse.
   
3. Do you take out Jace against decks like ANT, RUG Delver?
   Against ANT/TES he's too slow, but I bring in a Clique to keep the blue count up for Force, especially if I'm not running Meddling Mage. Against RUG he's generally too expensive. In all other matchups, I keep him in.
   
4. Do you take out Lili against Elves and D&T?
   3 mana Edict against Elves is fine, though not ideal. I keep her in, but I only have 2 Deluge/2 Golgari Charm/1 Cage postboard. If you have Mages, she's probably cuttable. Liliana is a real beating against D&T.
   
5. Do you keep FoW in against any non-combo decks? (RUG Delver or Miracles)
   Yes. Force has been inexplicably underrated by the Legacy community for years because of card disadvantage, and we can definitely afford to give a little bit of that up. Well placed Forces win games, period. Jund is the only matchup where I seriously consider bringing them out
   
6. When do you take out the Shardless/Visions package? Any times where it's only Visions or only Shardless?
   I only run 3 Visions main, but Shardless generally stays in no matter what, and Visions only comes out when I have enough blue cards to bring in to support Force while not being concerned about needing more draw or pitching SB cards
   
7. If you must have them, Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? If not, what do you add? Extra Lili?
   I'm only just looking into the SB counters now, but I'd say Pierce - Blood Moon and Sneak Attack (and to a lesser extent, Rest in Peace) are too good against us to not be able to hit them. Previously, I'd bring in Hymns against combo alongside Mages and/or Revokers

[infiniteJ]

BTM had a good response.

I should add to the force of will discussion:

It is fairly important and not often too difficult to not walk your force of will into a daze or spell pierce effect. Keep track of your RUG delver opponents habits and brainstorms. Often times they will shuffle back in dazes as the game goes on and their hand becomes easy to read.

Additionally, hard casting force of will is extraordinarily common with this deck in the late game, especially vs miracles. Even not against miracles, this scenario comes up often: AV goes off, opponent REBS or counterspells, you hard cast force of will. Or, as in a recent game vs BUG nic fit where I had extra mana from vet explorer (2 basics woo), AV goes off, opponent flashes in notion thief, you brainstorm into force but no second blue card, hardcast force.

-IJ

[mtgmafia]

So I've finally settled on a list I'm pretty comfortable with but I'm having some issues working out how to sideboard. I realize some of these might be noob questions, but I'm new to legacy (only have about a year of exp) and am a total noob with this deck (only played about 20 games with it). I also realize that every situation and sideboard choice can be different depending on deck "quirks" and the way an opponent is playing/sideboarding, I'm just looking for some broad-strokes advice on these questions moving forward until I get enough exp to know exact numbers/situations. Thanks in advance!

1. When do you add extra SB discard? Only against combo?
2. Are there decks where Hymn is better than Thoughtseize, and vice-versa?
3. Do you take out Jace against decks like ANT, RUG Delver?
4. Do you take out Lili against Elves and D&T?
5. Do you keep FoW in against any non-combo decks? (RUG Delver or Miracles)
6. When do you take out the Shardless/Visions package? Any times where it's only Visions or only Shardless?
7. If you must have them, Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce? If not, what do you add? Extra Lili?

I have wrestled with the board a lot, and wanted to share that in testing, meddling mage has overperformed for me so far. That being said, if you've only been playing legacy for a year, this may be a bad choice for you as you have to be very in tune with your opponents card choices. I have moved away from hymn as I feel that unless you are cascading into it, it seems to slow your development and board presence more than I would like. The double black often forces your mana to be awkward more often as well.

[mtgmafia]

Since we're talking a lot of sideboard options, I thought I'd share that I was testing a few weeks ago with my buddy Stephen who is a solid miracles player. I was asking how much he liked null rod in my board against him. He asked why I wasn't playing needle instead. It has been way better for me so far. I've liked how it plays vs sneAk and show, it is a better top deck against miracles as it can it more cards, and is a little bit of help vs other decks as well. Seems to play a more versatile role than the null rod did.

[rancOr_]

I think they are both equally good, Null Rod can come in versus ANT,.. aswell. But that sure is a valid point. I agree with meddling mages and no hymn, works best for me too.

[tescrin]

Well i mean rod is debatably better against equip decks. If they run EE it can be better there. It helps in storm and such.
Needle is better for belcher itself (but worse if you get a T2), if you get lucky mana denial, or like to target, Sneak, and other random things.

I think having 1 of each would be worth it potentially. I will say I've never been impressed with my own Needle/Revoker effects out of the board though.

I've been randomly hosed by Rod when I sided in EE in a Junk deck against Shardless. His splash hate slowed my ability to deal with his guys substantially; so remembering how many players use EE in the side is a thing as well.

[Dragonslayer_90]

@InfiniteJ: I'm curious is your no discard build similar to Lejay's? If so how different is it? I'm thinking playing a no discard build with discard in the sb is better for an ultrafair meta like the one we seem to have at the moment.

[infiniteJ]

Since we're talking a lot of sideboard options, I thought I'd share that I was testing a few weeks ago with my buddy Stephen who is a solid miracles player. I was asking how much he liked null rod in my board against him. He asked why I wasn't playing needle instead. It has been way better for me so far. I've liked how it plays vs sneAk and show, it is a better top deck against miracles as it can it more cards, and is a little bit of help vs other decks as well. Seems to play a more versatile role than the null rod did.

I've always played needle over null rod bc sneak and show is more prevalent than storm. I 1 mana vs 2 is not insignificant. Also many miracles players have moved away from eng explosives so that angle is not important. Shutting down equipment out of DNT would be the big draw for me of null rod but that's not usually the issue as our plan there is to kill all their guys.

-IJ

[infiniteJ]

@InfiniteJ: I'm curious is your no discard build similar to Lejay's? If so how different is it? I'm thinking playing a no discard build with discard in the sb is better for an ultrafair meta like the one we seem to have at the moment.

I'm playing usually anywhere between 70 to 75 of his 75 and have been for a year or more now.

4 deathite
4 tarmogoyf
4 shardless agent
4 ancestral vision
4 brainstorm
4 foce of will
4 abrupt decay
3 Lilliana
2 jace
2 toxic deluge
1 maelstrom pulse
1 sylvan library
1 flex spot (he runs ponder. I'm looking for anything else as I have not been impressed at all with ponder)
22 land
swamp
forest
4 wasteland
bayou
trop
4 underground
10 fetch

sb
4 meddling mage
1 savannah
3 thoughtseize
1 duress
1 night of souls betrayal
1 spot removal (I ran disfigure in NJ invitational/open, he runs STP which I can see the merit of and might try this weekend).
2 cage (or nihil spellbomb which is only necessary vs loam/fire decks).
1 pithing needle
1 anti miracles card-He now runs the aforementioned null rod but this has been Jace and notion thief in the past. This week I ran Jace Memory Adept. I have even tried Dissolve.

Lately also I've been sneaking a tarpit into the main for a wasteland or underground to help combat miracles.

The miracles matchup used to feel real strong with this type of build. Lately it's feeling closer to even with their blasts, councils judgement and keranos. I may try bitterblossom or garruk although I'd prefer a permanent win condition that doesn't pop out creatures and is not blue. Any ideas?

-IJ

[Dragonslayer_90]

Cool. Thanks for the reply infinitej. I'm trying to wrap my head around Lejay's build. Lately I've been playing shardless a lot more and, like I said earlier, I think a no discard-main version is better atm so I'm on board with that. However, I can't wrap my head around playing 4 wasteland in this deck still. Maybe I need to test more. In testing Lejay's build it feels like I have to mulligan more than I'd like because I don't have enough color sources in hand. Maybe there is something wrong with how I'm playing the deck. Do tell how 3-4 wasteland has been working out for you.

[DalamarTheDark]

Played in a tourney in New England yesterday, utilizing Shardless BUG. I've only been playing this deck for about a month now; and while I'm not new to Legacy, I am new to this deck and taking Legacy more seriously (I prefer Eternal formats).

I managed a 4-2-1 record, losing to Reanimator in the win-and-in (for me, not for my opponent - he didn't want to concede) match.

That said, I have some questions:

1. How is the BUG matchup vs the Lands Deck(s) suppose to go? I drew with the blue version (Intuition). Game one, DRS ate all his Darth Depths and I used Jace's ultimate; Game two, Punishing Fire ate all my DRS and I died to a 20/20 in turn 4 of extra turns.

How do we sideboard (I don't use the Meddling Mage sideboard)? What are the key cards?


2. What's the plan versus the various Deathblade/Stoneblade decks? This would have been a draw as well, had my opponent not graciously conceded because his ride was leaving (thanks guy!). Nevertheless, many cards are shared and both decks are very grindy. How should this go and how should we board?


3. How the hell does Shardless BUG beat Reanimator?


4. Is there a way for Shardless BUG to mitigate the Stifle/Wasteland plan of the various Delver decks? is Delver suppose to be a good or bad matchup for Shardless? I always assumed good, due to the deck's great ability to grind and efficient removal. But one Delver deck absolutely ate me alive.

Thanks in advance and all your assistance helping me to learn this fantastic deck for GP NJ!

[btm10]

Played in a tourney in New England yesterday, utilizing Shardless BUG. I've only been playing this deck for about a month now; and while I'm not new to Legacy, I am new to this deck and taking Legacy more seriously (I prefer Eternal formats).

I managed a 4-2-1 record, losing to Reanimator in the win-and-in (for me, not for my opponent - he didn't want to concede) match.

That said, I have some questions:

1. How is the BUG matchup vs the Lands Deck(s) suppose to go? I drew with the blue version (Intuition). Game one, DRS ate all his Darth Depths and I used Jace's ultimate; Game two, Punishing Fire ate all my DRS and I died to a 20/20 in turn 4 of extra turns.

How do we sideboard (I don't use the Meddling Mage sideboard)? What are the key cards?

Lining up your graveyard hate and disruption with their draw is important. DRS will take over most games if you keep them off of Punishing Fire or just draw multiple Deathrites. In game 1 you just race - favor cascades into Goyf or Vision, sandbag Force + blue card, and Jace is just ok. Liliana's ultimate is great, but the other two modes are lackluster. Game 2 Pithing Needle is great out of the board, as is Surgical Extraction, but make sure they can't dredge Loam or recur Fire before going for the Surgical. Sylvan Library is great both pre and poatboard.

2. What's the plan versus the various Deathblade/Stoneblade decks? This would have been a draw as well, had my opponent not graciously conceded because his ride was leaving (thanks guy!). Nevertheless, many cards are shared and both decks are very grindy. How should this go and how should we board?

Hold up DRS to stop Snapcaster shenanigans, and protect Goyf from Swords with your countermagic. Use discard to stop Batterskull, but the rest of the equipment can be Decayed easily and other than TNN, their creatures aren't very threatening. I just bring in Clique, Pluse, and Krosan Grip, with the outgoing cards being determined by thier configuration. I also like Needle against Deathblade if you expect Explosives or just want another way to hose SFM. Golgari Charm is good against either TNN or Supreme Verdict. These are favorable matchups overall, because they're playing a bad deck, and you're not.

3. How the hell does Shardless BUG beat Reanimator?

DRS and counters preboard. Don't remove Decay postboard, and bring in Cages. Play around Daze, and Liliana is basically just an Edict. The Strix version is stronger overall in this matchup. Postboard, you must stop Show and Tell in addition to reanimation. Clique, Thoughtseize, and especially Duress is good. Hymn is bad.

4. Is there a way for Shardless BUG to mitigate the Stifle/Wasteland plan of the various Delver decks? is Delver suppose to be a good or bad matchup for Shardless? I always assumed good, due to the deck's great ability to grind and efficient removal. But one Delver deck absolutely ate me alive.

Always fetch on their upkeep if you are afraid of Stifle, and make your fetch for a basic count. If you have Strixes, they make this matchup way easier than it is with Deluge, but Deluge is still fine. Sometimes you just get Delvered, though. Against RUG, I'd say it's close to 50/50, maybe a hair better. Against BUG, it's closer because they have a better lategame.

Thanks in advance and all your assistance helping me to learn this fantastic deck for GP NJ!

I'll post my current 75 sometime soon.

[LarsLeif]

Cool. Thanks for the reply infinitej. I'm trying to wrap my head around Lejay's build. Lately I've been playing shardless a lot more and, like I said earlier, I think a no discard-main version is better atm so I'm on board with that. However, I can't wrap my head around playing 4 wasteland in this deck still. Maybe I need to test more. In testing Lejay's build it feels like I have to mulligan more than I'd like because I don't have enough color sources in hand. Maybe there is something wrong with how I'm playing the deck. Do tell how 3-4 wasteland has been working out for you.

I've been playing the Lejay version of the deck for some time now and I do believe that 4 Waste is the right way to go. Yes there are some more mulligans but it's important to remember that we are not a pure control deck, in a fair amount of games we are a pretty aggressive midrange/tempo deck. In those games we need the tempo/resource denial that wasteland provides.

[litenkatt]

where can i find lejays version?

[Dragonslayer_90]

where can i find lejays version?

Somewhere you can find Modo daily results. Here's his most recent version: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/246643#online

[btm10]

As promised, what I'm currently working from:

Creatures (13)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Shardless Agent
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Vendilion Clique

Disruption/Removal (11)
4 Force of Will
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge

Draw/Manipulation (8)
4 Brainstorm
3 Ancestral Vision
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ponder

Land (22)
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
3 Underground Sea
3 Wasteland
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
1 Forest

Planeswalkers (4)
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

Sideboard (15)
4 Meddling Mage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Duress
2 Pithing Needle
1 Krosan Grip
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Sylvan Library
1 Savannah

I'm not a big fan of Lejay's sideboard (beyond Savannah/Meddling Mage) or of limiting the MD disruption to Force, but that's my preference for more ways to interact with combo preboard. I think if you're playing in the broader US meta, Strix might be better than Deluge both as a blue card and is better against Delver decks, but Deluge is markedly better against D&T and Elves.

[litenkatt]

What's the reason we don't play dark confidant at all? I've seen BUG delver play him, but I don't think he necessary belongs in tempo decks only

[trollking21]

What's the reason we don't play dark confidant at all? I've seen BUG delver play him, but I don't think he necessary belongs in tempo decks only

Thoughtseize and toxic deluge already drain your life and dark confidant plus jace and force and several 3 drops seems bad. Furthermore ancestral visions and jace out CA most other decks.

[wcm8]

If Dig through Time and/or Treasure Cruise end up being 'real' cards, I think BUG Control should reconsider if the Agent/Visions 'engine' is still worth running. That's 8 slots of clunky midrange that also forces the deck to be built around it (e.g. no reactive counter-magic that isn't FoW due to cmc concerns).

Instead, if DTT or TC become the card advantage slots, we can then consider running Snapcaster + low cmc disruption and also be able to function at instant speed instead of running a purely tap-out strategy. I also wonder if the old Deedstill cards could make a comeback: Life from the Loam + Smallpox seem a lot better if you're running 'Ancestral Recall' to restock your hand. Perhaps Intuition or Entomb could serve as tutor effects. Anyways, just something to consider.