[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Higgs]

I would play first Duress, so we have BB floating, then Cabal Therapy to be sure to hit even multiples and then with the remaining B Dark Ritual, Cabal Ritual, LED, Tutor --> PIF loop :)
Is that correct? :D

I would lead with Duress as well and am pretty sure it's most obvious yet the wrong option :) ok what if he fows the duress? Is he hiding a second fow (not likely), a flusterstorm (could be) or hiding a dead hand? It would be less likely to get countered if you lead with Therapy but then you can miss and be looking at a hand with Clique, Flusterstorms or whatever.

[wonderPreaux]

Thanks for taking the time to reply in such depth. I will agree that it is dubious whether or not it is actually justified running multiples of a sideboard card that basically only comes in against one particular matchup. When it makes sense to me online, it is because Miracles is by far the most popular, competitive legacy deck on mtgo. Even if I end up really liking it I'm not completely sure it deserves a spot in my paper sideboard. With that being said, Miracles have had a rise in popularity during 2014 so I don't think it's necessarily unreasonable.

I can definitely relate to the online meta, I play solely on MTGO and encounter Miracles once per daily on average. However, you also have those Delver decks that come up, or fringe/midrange decks and the like, I can't help but feel that MTGO pushes versatility more than paper since events are more frequent and trying something off-beat is as simple as clicking a different deck.

On to your analysis. I will concede that saying they have "no way" to remove it is a bit of a stretch, but out of the methods you mention I think only Venser deserves a fair mention. And it is, to my experience, a minority of miracles lists that run Venser. If the miracles player is siding in Wear//Tear (unbeknownst of the Storm player bringing in City of Solitude, but simply to kill a wayward LED) then I'd say that's wrong in the first place and that we shouldn't be hedging against bad sideboard choices by miracles players as it will be a minority that make them. The same can be said for Council's Judgment. What Miracles player in their right mind will keep any copies of that card in against Storm after sideboard?

My thought process is that there's often a game 3 against Miracles and that the Miracles pilot would pivot to answer what hate they see. Much like you'd see more Terminus/StP from them once they've seen your Pyromancer game 2, I'd also expect to see enchantment removal if they've seen your City of Solitude. Wear//Tear is especially damning because it can not only remove City, but also allows them to fix Counterbalance on 1 AND 2 while they set up to seize control after removing your city (the latter reason being the rationale some use to bring in Wear//Tear blind). I'm not saying City of Solitude is bad because removal exists, I'm just saying that it is removable and that is an issue you have to confront.

I also think it's important to say that bringing City of Solitude does not mean I stop bringing in Abrupt Decays, Young Pyromancers or extra storm cards. For these reasons my miracles games tend to go semi-long and the plan is, that by the time City of Solitude is probably castable (turn 3-5) they have already lost some of their counter magic from discard or from burning it on other relevant spells such as Young Pyromancer. Either that, or I already have a Young Pyromancer in play, in which case sticking a City of Solitude puts them in a worse position than they are already in due to limiting their use of Top.

I understand that you're bringing in additional cards on top of the City, my point there is that you'd think having a big sideboard bomb would mean you wouldn't have to bring in so many cards, right? Like, my analogy was how GY hate for Dredge/Reanimator is all silver-bullets so you get away with running ~3 cards, but you're siding, what, 6~9 cards still with City of Solitude? If you're committing that much sb space to a matchup then I believe it would necessitate most/all of those cards being relevant to multiple matchups just for the sake of keeping your sideboard functional. If the greatest impact of City of Solitude is that it just gives you more bombs to drop, I can't help but feel you could still achieve that with cards that put in work in multiple matchups.

I agree that we'd still want to answer Counterbalance/Top lock, but as in my example, beating that softlock is quite possible with City out as they are being forced to either shut down our 1 or 2 mana spells. Shut down the 2 mana spells and we get to dig for decay. Shut down 1 mana spells and we get to either just go off with tutor, cabal rits and LED or drop a Young Pyromancer and get to work. Of course they can mind-game us and we can mind-game them and it's not a sure thing by any stretch that we will always come out on top. But given the slow nature of their deck I'd contend that it's a valid approach. As I said, unless they are very far ahead on the board - and by that I mean have a jace out + CB/Top or have a clock on us (like a Clique, or a batterskull or the likes) - then a resolved City of Solitude gives our game plan a pretty huge boost.

I understand you can beat Counterbalance on a fixed value, but every time you call it wrong, you're losing a card of varying relevance to you. Yeah it's great when you call it right and just wreck them, but when you're paying to interact and can lose roughly half the time, the EV of that makes it seem like a losing proposition in the long run, especially if you are paired against someone who does have a method of removing the City or has something like Batterskull.

Now, with all of this said and done I'm not saying that City of Solitude is for sure the right fit, but I am enjoying what I'm getting to do with it here during testing and will continue to test it out for a while yet.

I'll see about giving it a try too, like I said, I love what the card does, I'm just trying to figure how many slots it's worth and what slots it'd be replacing.

[Surfinbird]

After some testing i've built this list. It seems very consistent and the sideboard is working fantastically:

1 Ad Nauseam
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal ritual
4 Brainstorm

4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian probe
4 Infernal tutor
4 Duress
3 Cabal therapy
2 Preordain
1 Past in flames
1 Tendrils of Agony

1 Sensei's divining top
4 Lion's eye diamond
4 Lotus petal

4 Polluted delta
2 Misty rainforest
2 Bloodstained mire
2 Underground sea
1 Volcanic island
1 Tropical island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp

SIDEBOARD:

3 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt decay
3 Dread of night
3 Chain of vapor
1 Massacre
1 Sensei's divining top
1 Empty the warrens

Today i've been playing a couples of hours in cockatrice and i've won all the matches: Canadian, Team America, 2x Death and Taxes, Burning reanimator, bUrg Delver, BUG tempo (stifles), 2x Miracles.

I usually side in 2 chains of vapor against Team America to bounce shamans (and then go to pif kill) or ocasional null rods and graffidgers cage. Do you think it's correct? Should i do the same against Canadian? (they usually play 1-2 cages) I don't think so since we can prepare a tutor chain against them.

[Togores]

How u sided vs bug delver?


also sidding chains can always be good. Its never gonna be a bad card, even bouncing a delver o making more storm. But usualy the card u shafe for this situational card are worser.

[sawatarix]

Yesterday i tested against 3 different miracle players and surprisingly i had good results.
2:0 + 2:0 + 2:1= 60 in games


while g1 was always the same (go off as quickly as possible before they drop counterbalance+ top)
i tested different sideboard options through all the postboard games.

against the first miracle player i boarded in:
+ 2 city of splitude
+ 3 Tendrils of Agony
+ 3 Abrupt Decay
- 7 discard
- 1 Ad Nauseam

it was far from ideal,i know.
all cities got countered obviously because i took out all discard spells.
however i won via double tendrils.

against the second miracle player i boarded:

+ 2 city of solitude
+ 3 tendrils of agony
+ 3 abrupt decay
- 4 LED
- 1 Ad Nauseam
- 2 theraphy
- 1 Lotus Petal

i doubled city of solitude with infernal tutor and cast them in my comboturn.The first one catched a force of will and the second one got also countered.in the same turn i won via tendrils played from my hand (natural tendrils are pretty good because they ignore countermagic except flusterstorm )


against the third miracle player
boardings changed again:

+ 3 Tendrils of Agony
+ 4 Abrupt Decay
+ 1 Krosan Grip
- 4 Lions Eye Diamond
- 2 Lotus Petal
- 2 Cabal Therapy

i cut city because in the previous games it was nothing more than a "discard-spell" which catches a counterspell.
instead, more outs to permanents came in.
basically you play "land go" until you have a full grip with 1-4 tendrils in your hand.
Cast decay on counterbalance at Eot and then go off on your turn,this strategy is called grinding station (nothing new but it still works pretty good).

overall i'm satisfied with the matchup how it is right now but also believe that there are also other ways to win against the most popular control deck.

[Togores]

I have been playing the second tendrills in side since a while (I have cutted it niw to test other things) amd they came in prety often vs miracles, esper, canadian (changing for the nauseam) and burn where u can make a small tendrills to stay alive while u search for the other. They where generaly great. I played 2 then 1 in side. Obv this plan the mire tendrills the better.

The only problems where:
A flusterstorm
B ppl countering a ritual that makes not get to 8 mana.

Also a big problem is decay. Usualy you wanna decay eot. But then u dint have 8 cards in your turn to go off wich is the perfect aproach.

Also with this plan playing multiple sdt main makes it better.

[Surfinbird]

How u sided vs bug delver?


also sidding chains can always be good. Its never gonna be a bad card, even bouncing a delver o making more storm. But usualy the card u shafe for this situational card are worser.

I sided in 2 chain of vapor, 1 empty the warrens and 1 sensei's divining top. 1 Gitaxian probe, 1 Cabal ritual, 1 Duress and 1 Bayou went out, but i'm still not sure about taking out the last 2 cards

[Togores]

Takingg lands vs a deck that has so much fun discarting lands with hymn. Wasteland styfle and daZe seems a bad idea immo.
Weird out boarding that must be said >.<

[Surfinbird]

I didn't want to side out any preordains since we need the maximum number of cantrips to beat discard. Maybe i should take out another gitaxian probe, put they are too good:(

Which cards would you side out?

[Togores]

I didn't want to side out any preordains since we need the maximum number of cantrips to beat discard. Maybe i should take out another gitaxian probe, put they are too good:(

Which cards would you side out?

I already play 2 sensei main deck and 0 sb, Also I like a lot duress against decks with hymn, cause its a really good catch card to get rid of hymn or if they have not u can get any other card. Its a catchall in counterpart to Canadian where u just wanna a ton of mana and therapys to get rid of theyr fows.

I would side out 1x preordian, but I dont know if something else. Its really hard to side vs bug delver.

Some ideas?

[Tav]

I said it on the last page but my board for bug is +3 pyro, -2 preordain, -1 cabal ritual. Bug delver is so good at attacking us from multiple angles, be it discard, mana, our gy, or our life, but it takes their nut draw to be able to hit us from all angles at once. That's why I like the pyros against them as it lets us diversify our threats. Say they keep a noncreature counter heavy hand, we can go to work on pyro, but if maybe they keep an aggressive hand we can attack via pif, or if they go for our gy we can look for a ad nauseam. It's all about not running face first into the plan that they are best prepared for.

As for what I bring out I fully believe preordain is still the weakest card in the deck, although maybe 1 preordain is better in than the 3rd cabal ritual.

EDIT: I actually said I took out the sdt the other day but I was tired and sick and that is just wrong.

[Surfinbird]

Another question: Which is the best gameplan against Deathblade? How do you side against them?

I side like this:

+1 Sensei's divining top
+2 Chain of vapor (leaving the third in the sideboard, is it ok?)
+1 Massacre

-1 Gitaxian probe
-1 Bayou
-1 Cabal ritual
-1 Lotus petal

[sawatarix]

there are some cards in the deck wouldn't board out - gitaxian probe is one of them, i've never ever boarded them out so far (only if i do crazy experiments but that doesn't happen that often)

[Surfinbird]

there are some cards in the deck wouldn't board out - gitaxian probe is one of them, i've never ever boarded them out so far (only if i do crazy experiments but that doesn't happen that often)

How do you side against deathblade?

[Togores]

Played locals today 4 rounds.

2-0 elfes (my opp g2 made pithing on my led yeay!)
2-0 affinity (here my opp made a chalice on one, i went, led, cabal ritual, infernal, cabal ritual crack led so my second has ******** and he goes envelope my infernal, ok gets countered by his chalice. PIf gg
0-2 elfes, Im missing a ritual to go off and my opp after i discarted his hand has just a visonary, driad, and drs. He draw atacks passes. Draws plays the fresh drawn cradle and the last turn natural order to hoof me.

I mull to 6 keeping, ritual, led, bayou, therapy, brainstorm, duress. I duress petal pass. He makes an elf I draw play the braisntorm of the petal, brainstorm lock me and die.
Would you have played the card in another sequence? or even mull that hand?

1-2 bug
g1 I just roll over him and his not fliped delver.
g2 I go eot and nauseam, he forces it (I knew this forcé) I had pif in grave due to and hymn, I go led cabal ritual pif and he had another fow and I die to his guys.
g3 I had 2 led 3 lands (i fetch) 1 petal and a therapy. I ponder seein petal, brainstorm, ponder keep the cards like so and draw the petal. I go petal therapy (he had: fow, pierce, Liliana, hymn, goyf and a unknown card) He forces with another forcé. and I drop all my artifacts going hellbent. he drops goyf, I brainstorm, keep ponder shuffle, Ponder, shuffle, draw another ponder play it, shuffle draw aritual that gets hymn. I draw another ritual. then draw a gitaxian If i draw a tutor I still live and he had drawn blue card and fow. So I just die.

I still dont know how to beat bug delver, fucking hate that deck...


So thas it, bad beats vs elfs and unlucky draws vs bug >.<

[Surfinbird]

I've been thinking a bit about our current mana base, which usually looks like this:

8 Fetchlands
2 underground sea
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island
1 island
1 swamp

We are playing 2 green duals only to play abrupt decays and sometimes xantid swarms. In game 1s, they are used as wasteable islands or swamps, and against pairnings where we don't side in either decays or xantids they do the same work in G2 and G3. Let's see the pairings where this cards are needed:

Abrupt decay:

- Miracles: They don't run wastelands, playing only a tropical should be enough.
- MUD, GWB Zenith: They run wastelands, but both are not tier 1, 2 or even 3.

Xantid Swarm:

- Reanimator, Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Merfolks: The same as miracles, they are not running wastelands.
- Canadian, Patriot: They run wastelands, but lots of players argue that they wouldn't bring in xantids against these pairings.

We all know the problems that we have against Delver decks like Canadian or specially Team America. I've thought that maybe running a mana base with 2 swamps and 2 islands would help a lot against this decks, running only a tropical island in the side against the pairings where we really need green mana.

Opinions?

[JamieW89]

I've been thinking a bit about our current mana base, which usually looks like this:

8 Fetchlands
2 underground sea
1 bayou
1 tropical island
1 volcanic island
1 island
1 swamp

We are playing 2 green duals only to play abrupt decays and sometimes xantid swarms. In game 1s, they are used as wasteable islands or swamps, and against pairnings where we don't side in either decays or xantids they do the same work in G2 and G3. Let's see the pairings where this cards are needed:

Abrupt decay:

- Miracles: They don't run wastelands, playing only a tropical should be enough.
- MUD, GWB Zenith: They run wastelands, but both are not tier 1, 2 or even 3.

Xantid Swarm:

- Reanimator, Omnitell, Sneak and Show, Merfolks: The same as miracles, they are not running wastelands.
- Canadian, Patriot: They run wastelands, but lots of players argue that they wouldn't bring in xantids against these pairings.

We all know the problems that we have against Delver decks like Canadian or specially Team America. I've thought that maybe running a mana base with 2 swamps and 2 islands would help a lot against this decks, running only a tropical island in the side against the pairings where we really need green mana.

Opinions?

I don't think I'd ever want the second swamp. Needing double black during setup doesn't happen all that often. The second Island definately has merit though, I have certainly missed it at points.

If you think it's unlikely to ever cast a second green spell versus a deck with wastelands (MUD, Maverick/DnT for Decay, maybe tempo if you have Carpets etc.) you can probably cut the Trop for the 2nd Island (Bayou is awkward sometimes, but 2 Islands, Trop, Volc vs 1 Swamp seems a little short on black). You could play 2/1 basics, 2 Sea, 1 Volc, 9 fetch with a trop sb as an alternative if you prefer more fetches (e.g. if you play more cantrips in preordains), or go for 2/1 basics, 2 Sea, Volc+Badlands, 8 Fetch with trop sb if you have EtW or 2 PiF main.

[Surfinbird]

Against some decks (usually delver) we need 2 black mana sources, 1 to play the discard spell and the other to go off.

[JamieW89]

Against some decks (usually delver) we need 2 black mana sources, 1 to play the discard spell and the other to go off.

But during your combo turn it's not hard to get extra black sources from petals and non-basics. The basics are mainly there for the setup. A second black is needed in that phase when you want to Grim Tutor for setup or if you want to Infernal for setup and cast another black spell (discard/2nd infernal). It is possible to have several combo turns in a row because they bottleneck the start of it once or twice. In those situations a second swamp helps, but it isn't always required anyways.

[Surfinbird]

Another question: Which is the best gameplan against Deathblade? How do you side against them?

I side like this:

+1 Sensei's divining top
+2 Chain of vapor (leaving the third in the sideboard, is it ok?)
+1 Massacre

-1 Gitaxian probe
-1 Bayou
-1 Cabal ritual
-1 Lotus petal

Opinions? How do you side against deathblade?