Miracle Control

[Lemnear]

That still needs to be tested. DTT does serve a different role than EtA and it's instant speed which gives it different applications - it's better against Combo for instance.

Do you really consider a card which is uncastable before like turn 5 "better against combo"?

[TheArchitect]

Do you really consider a card which is uncastable before like turn 5 "better against combo"?

You might be right, that DTT is not needed in miracles... But yes, DTT is definitely better than Jace or Entreat vs combo. Also, it is easily castable on turn 4, and sometimes on turn 3. The beauty of DTT is that it is an instant, and frequently costs 2. Those are its distinct advantages over the other usual late game bombs. I think it is something worth at least testing.

[klaus]

Do you really consider a card which is uncastable before like turn 5 "better against combo"?

100%. ..btw: so is Jace. You will never ever tap out on your turn on turn 4 against Combo. Being able to cast it eot to refill your hand with the perfect disruption pieces (to complete CB/Top or find the FoW you need to survive) is huge!
Also: more often than not Combo will attempt to go off run into a well-timed counter spell, which may buy us a couple of turns. DTT is the perfect tool here to keep the upper hand.

[Adryan]

What do you people think about the U/R Matchup (this list:http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109238). I played against it yesterday and he had pretty good hands, so I got smashed. What are your experiences?

I suppose you mean the deck Bob Huang won the SCG Open with.

Deck seems to be pretty sick. I tested the MU against a friend of mine.

It does have a blistering fast clock, plays a strictly better Goblin Guide, has Pyromancer that will go crazy, once they untap with him and has draw spells to refill their hand consistently. I had a positive record against it, but that was due to the fact that i play 4 Terminus, 4 STP and MD blasts and SFM in my SB. If you don't play the full set of removal preboard (4 Terminus&4 Sword&Snapcaster) and a couple of blasts, it is definetely a tough MU.

So many people don't respect/ expect the deck and are unprepared, especially online, so i'll play it over Miracles for quite some time, because it's really powerful and a lot easier to play, which is good if you want to double queue.

[exallium]

What do you people think about the U/R Matchup (this list:http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=14751&iddeck=109238). I played against it yesterday and he had pretty good hands, so I got smashed. What are your experiences?

I really like the deck. I also got smashed by it last night too. Mainly due to a GIGANTIC play error on my part (I was executing a more complex line of play to get terminus set up, got interrupted in the middle of it, and when I looked back I was like "oh brainstorm? let me put this island and fetch back---- GAAAAHHH!") that would have not happened if I was playing in a tournament.

I'm still not sold on a zero-creature MD, and have really been liking the legends package. Moving a Terminus to the board for a Verdict in the main is interesting, and I know lists used to do this. I believe though someone (maybe PV?) said that we're a miracles deck damnit, and we should be running all of them, and thus a lot of people switched it up to 4 (maybe not the cause, but it's happened)

As for Dig, I've cut a snapcaster from the list I'm currently running but haven't drawn it yet:

/// MD
1 Snapcaster
3 Clique
1 Venser

3 Jace
4 Terminus
2 Entreat

4 Top
4 Brainstorm
1 Spell Pierce
3 Swords
1 Pyroblast
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
1 Council's Judgment
4 Force
1 Dig Through Time

2 Karakas
1 Mountain
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic
4 Tarn
4 Strand
2 Mesa

/// SB
1 Cage
1 RIP
1 Needle
1 Pyroblast
1 REB
1 Keranos
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroclasm
1 Blood Moon
1 Verdict
1 Staticaster
1 Wear // Tear
1 Venser
1 Council's Judgment

[MattiasNL]

After playing a couple of matches against the UR delver deck I can say that the deck puts up a great fight against miracles. Their weak point is that they only have 12 threats so having the maximum number of swords to plowshares and force of will can really help you stave off the early game. After that it's about landing either counterbalance or stoneforge mystic to lock up the game before they recover with treasure cruises. Sulfuric Vortex from the board can be a pain and is another reason why Force of Will is super important in the matchup.
Hydroblast could also be considered for the sideboard.

I still highly recommend playing thopter miracles. It improves the delver, bug and mirror matchups by so so much. Currently at 31-4 in matches with my list on magic online http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247965#online

[exallium]

After playing a couple of matches against the UR delver deck I can say that the deck puts up a great fight against miracles. Their weak point is that they only have 12 threats so having the maximum number of swords to plowshares and force of will can really help you stave off the early game. After that it's about landing either counterbalance or stoneforge mystic to lock up the game before they recover with treasure cruises. Sulfuric Vortex from the board can be a pain and is another reason why Force of Will is super important in the matchup.
Hydroblast could also be considered for the sideboard.

I still highly recommend playing thopter miracles. It improves the delver, bug and mirror matchups by so so much. Currently at 31-4 in matches with my list on magic online http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/247965#online

I'm definitely interested in trying your list in the coming months... There's a few pricey things here I just don't have the funds for even online at the moment (Leylines, batterskull, 4th Jace...).

What do people think TC is going to do for BUG delver? It seems like the Eternal Central guys at least are going to drastically improve it's matchup vs. Miracles, and I'm inclined to agree with them to a point. I think us having access to Blast effects will definitely help keep them under control, but the matchup definitely gets harder because we need to pick and choose when we use them.

[Cipher]

My money's on UR Pyromancer being the best of the Delver decks. I think Treasure Cruise works better in a deck that can empty it's hand more effectively. Plus, not only can this deck Blood Moon the other Delvers, it's less vulnerable to graveyard hate than the others. If both both players are delving, I see a lot of 1/2 Tarmogoyfs and vanilla 1/2 Deathrites coming.

[exallium]

My money's on UR Pyromancer being the best of the Delver decks. I think Treasure Cruise works better in a deck that can empty it's hand more effectively. Plus, not only can this deck Blood Moon the other Delvers, it's less vulnerable to graveyard hate than the others. If both both players are delving, I see a lot of 1/2 Tarmogoyfs and vanilla 1/2 Deathrites coming.

Yeah, RIP seems like bad value vs. the deck because you're only hitting 4 cards. I think Blast effects are going to be a much better answer, at least vs UR. I could be wrong though. I'm wrong all the time.

It'll be interesting to see the new changes this weekend in the open. Should have some vital information on trends in the metagame for those of us going to NJ. Allows us to Adapt before it becomes a problem.

I'm going to switch up (read: back) to Ein's 4 ponder build for the time being. I do want a blood moon in that sideboard though.

[uncletiggy]

Any chance of a primer update its three years out and contains tech like 4 of peacekeepr in the sideboard with matchup analysis on goblins new horizons merfolk and zoo

[exallium]

Any chance of a primer update its three years out and contains tech like 4 of peacekeepr in the sideboard with matchup analysis on goblins new horizons merfolk and zoo

I think Ein was working on one... Take a look at his signature for some solid primers / articles that he wrote for SCG and other sites. I really feel like we need a "reset" and a new thread.

[Valtrix]

Since no one person seems to be putting together a full premier, perhaps we could do a community version. That way the work for each part can be spread out. Here's an example starting page on Google Docs. All I did was copy the current table of contents from the beginning of this thread over, but it should still give you a flavor of what we could do with this system. Currently it's setup so that anybody with the link can view and comment. Try it out yourself to get a feel for it! You can actually do full edits this way, but instead of being directly updated on the main version, they will show up as potential changes until approved by anybody with full edit privileges. Currently that's just me, but I can add people to give full edit privileges if people would like to be more active in updating a primer like that. Additionally Google Docs will keep a history of revisions, so if for some reason we need to revert a change that will all be tracked for us.

So what do you guys think, do you like an idea like this? It doesn't have to be my document or with Google Docs, but I think putting together a community primer could definitely be very effective. And I would be more than happy to manage the page and edits, although I might not be able to do much writing for awhile.

The only worry might be some conflicting opinions on what exactly should be in the primer, but as long as the number of people with full edit privileges is kept low I think that there shouldn't be too many issues with things like this. Another advantage to a community edition is that anybody who has done work already can just integrate their writing into the open document.

[Dice_Box]

I think the best way to do a Miracles primer would be in the same style as the Painter one. That is three people have opening posts that each explain a different take on the deck. Since there are (from my count) 4 ways to build Miracles, that could be effective.

[AnziD]

Went to locals last night with 4 Ponder list in a meta of TC Delver decks. I am a bit busy right now and cant elaborate yet, but Ein was very much correct in his initial assessment.

I went 3-0-1 beating TC BUG Delver 2-0 (g2 he resolved 2 cruises and a Sylvan Library...still won somehow), TC Storm 2-1 (a brew), and Cruisin USA 2-0 (g2 he resolved 2 cruises, g3 he resolved 3). I split r4 but we played it out anyways, and I was demolished by TC BUG Delver 0-2.

My conclusion from this night of testing (as little as it was) is that CounterTop does not care about TC. At the moment Ein's list is the strongest CounterTop list and I think moving forward it is a good idea to play.

My biggest concern, however, is beating the TC BUG decks because it seems Top alone cannot beat Treasure Cruise. I am actually so worried about it that I am starting to consider Blood Moon over the 3rd Flusterstorm.

[twndomn]

What do people think TC is going to do for BUG delver? It seems like the Eternal Central guys at least are going to drastically improve it's matchup vs. Miracles, and I'm inclined to agree with them to a point. I think us having access to Blast effects will definitely help keep them under control, but the matchup definitely gets harder because we need to pick and choose when we use them.

Compare to Grixis Delver or UR Delver, TC cannot possibly be as good in BUG/Sultai Delver. What good is holding Abrupt Decay in your hand when you need to reach Threshold? Even if he doesn't have AD, it's entirely possible the BUG Delver's opponent is harassing BUG Delver player's graveyard via DRS.

If Bob Huang's UR Delver ever takes off, which many of us still doubt, then it's actually good for Miracles.
1. RUG/Temur Delver suffers tremendously, since every tempo deck including RUG is trying to abuse TC, they are diminishing their own Goyf and Mongoose.
2. Wasteland and Stifle might become less common. Again, to rush toward threshold, holding Stifle is not desirable. That UR Delver runs no Wasteland.

Bottom line, DTT is competing against Snapcaster's slot, makes little sense to run both. The creatureless version (Reid Duke) can integrate DTT in the best, simply by replacing Preordain.

[Dragonslayer_90]

I don't mind starting out writing the primer as a community version. Also, as stated earlier, I'd be willing to take primary responsibility for creating the primer after I'm done with my midterms, which will be done in a week. I am the one who wrote the Team America primer so if you want to see an example of my work go look in that thread here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...a-(BUG-Delver). The Miracles primer I would create would probably be bigger than that since there is more than one build for this deck. In that vein at least I would ask people probably to write sections of the primer if you have experience with a particular build like thopter miracles or legend miracles. I would also be open to suggestions for other sections and content that should be in an updated Miracles primer. Let me know if you guys want me to get the ball rolling on this soon.

@AnziD: Have you actually played against the BUG Delver Cruise decks much beyond what you reported about? I don't mean to offend you or anything but the matchup seems fine for miracles still. At worse it is even rather slightly favorable, which just means you have to play as tight as possible.

[TheArchitect]

Why would you cut snap for DTT. Both are insanely good cards? Also snapping back DTT is awesome. I'm cutting 1 counterspell for dig. I will regret it on turn 2-3, but after that dig is basically counterspell with insane upside (since you can find FoW + blue cards about 50-90% of the time depending on how many cards you've seen).

[Dice_Box]

Paying 3 cards, 2 Mana and delving 6 to counter a spell seams like a shit trade to me.

Edit.
I think I just talked myself out of playing the card.

[Cipher]

Every draw spell is awful if you tack Force of Will onto it.

[MattiasNL]

I think the best way to do a Miracles primer would be in the same style as the Painter one. That is three people have opening posts that each explain a different take on the deck. Since there are (from my count) 4 ways to build Miracles, that could be effective.

Agreed this is one of those decks where there's no 'one true way' to build and even play the deck.
I would be willing to write a bit more indepth about my thopter foundry build if people are interested in the reasoning behind the card choices and such.