Abrupt Decay isn't a card in your meta?Originally Posted by barcode
Yep, 4x Abrupt Decay main is why I expect to beat Miracles game 1. Add in 2 Krosan Grip for game 2 so I don't have to waste a decay making them shuffle away their first top if they land it and I feel really good in the matchup.
If you have Counterspell in hand or on top of the library with a top in play you should definitely try to counter Treasure Cruise. If you have Force of Will you need to hold it unless you can hard cast it and even then you can't tap out for it. Going to 1 card in hand while BUG goes to 4 or 5 will kill you almost every time.
Yeah, Counterbalance is so strong that having it in your deck means you don't care about your opponent's resolving Ancestral Recall...why do people keep saying this?
The only way Counterbalance is going to be so insane against these decks is if they warp their lists to run piles of cantrips to turn on Treasure Cruise. Counterbalance as is is terrible against GBx decks and just decent against other midrange creature lists. The card is mostly for decks that push the envelope and run piles of 1 CMC spells.
The reason people keep saying it is because they can draw 3 and you can stop them from casting any of them most of the time. They win the battle, you the war.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
You're just ignoring the fact that Counterbalance was mediocre against these decks before they had Treasure Cruise. Adding Ancestral Recall doesn't make it magically better. If Counterbalance wasn't inherently busted against their deck last month, it only got worse.
Why can't you look at the meta from the other angle? If you think Lossett MD Blasts is not as good as the Ponder build, Cruise might just become another reason to MD Blasts.
This. This is why I hate Magic players. Because you have TWO Krosan Grip post board. I mean, I have a 14 card sideboard in my BUG Deck against Miracles, so I am also a part of my own problem, but that's not the point.
Cruise is a very powerful card, and it will basically always be at least as good as a Hymn to Tourach if they cast it. If it resolves, they get closer to Grips and Decays. In G1, we don't have to worry about it. Plenty of these decks need to skew towards cheaper Spells, so they could be on 3-Decays. By the time Cruise is online you should have a second Balance. In G1; we can basically ignore Cruise if it's cast anywhere from turn 5 onwards. However; post board we have a problem. BUG has always been a deck where Red Blast is bad. Now they have 3 Ancestral Recalls, and we can't even Counterbalance them effectively. (We have, at the absolute most 2.) This means we have to find a better way of fighting them. They are a midrange deck, so we can actually get away with Counterspell here. I think that just having Counterspell for Lilianas and Cruises, and then Terminusing the board.
What is this "Red Blast Vs Ponder" nonsense? I'm playing both.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
I've been losing a lot to Treasure Cruise.dec on MTGO. I'm running pretty well against everything else, but the tempo variants with Treasure Cruise keep popping up.
BUG - standard Delver list w/ Treasure Cruise added
Patriot - standard list w/ Treasure Cruise - some are running Stifle and Probe
RUG - Standard list, minus the Nimble Mongeese
Young Pyromancer - some of these decks are UR, others are URB for Cabal Therapy. The UR decks are also running Swiftspear Monk.
It seems like the games turn into a grind. I'm usually using my REB/PB on Delvers, cantrips, or FOW. In games 2/3, I am taking my FOW out (at least some of them) and Treasure Cruise's CMC is too high for Counterbalance.
It just seems like the games play out, they lay some threats, I neutralize their threats and build some board presence, and then they Treasure Cruise and sometimes chain multiples. It is basically an Ancestral Recall at sorcery speed.
I've considered bringing in RIP, but vs. the Young Pyromancer decks, you are only stopping Treasure Cruise and you are hurting your own SCM.
I'm tired of losing to an 8 CC common in Legacy.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
If you can play Krosan Grip in this meta you should have two in the SB. The hardest cards to deal with are SDT and Batterskull. Counterbalance and Rest in Peace are soft locks that can turn hard in a hurry. Jitte is at the heart of several creature control strategies and Split-second is very relevant when dealing with it. Aether Vial is a problem in D&T and Merfolk and again Split-second is relevant. Random blasts from the past usually have a couple of good grip targets in them.
Even if you're playing 4 Abrupt Decay main you're not solving the SDT problem, just ameliorating it a bit, and you're doing nothing about Batterskull at all. So the grips come in and the decays find other targets much of the time. Miracles just happens to board in several cards that decay applies too. I've had people board out their Counterbalances against me because I'm loaded for bear after game 1 and what that does is prevent them from ever keeping a top on the table and from maintaining RiP long enough to win.
The problem Miracles has right now is that in addition to the normal high level of hate for it, befitting it's status as the most consistent control list in the meta, it's also getting splash hate all over the place. Treasure Cruise joins the meta and Envelop becomes a real option in the SB given the value it creates against Miracles, Elves, Jund and now every list playing Ponder, Treasure Cruise and discard with maybe a favored sorcery or two in the flex slots.
The list will find it's way through the maze but it's going to be a rocky path for the first few months. I think Dig Through Time is going to wind up in Miracles, just so there's the potential to Counterbalance a Treasure Cruise. That and it's a ridiculously powerful spell in a list looking for a few good cards in the mid to late game.
Played RIP Helm tonight, went 4-0. I found that Energy Field is really the winner. I won only 2 games outright, the rest I won with Rip/Field or Moat/Humility locks with protection. I also ran the most wacked sideboard plan I have ever seen. Six slots where E tutor targets: Moat, Humility, Nodes, Thorn, Moon and a back up Energy Field. The line up was RUG, Fish, Burn (won the first game on a life) and U/R Delver.
While my plan worked, I custom built it for my Meta. No combo, Delver has killed it, just Tempo and fair decks. For that reason I felt comfortable cutting a lot of the normal combo hate and going with a creature defensive build.
I know that people are stating that RIP Helm is an overreaction, but I think Energy Field makes it something worth considering. BUG was the only other undefeated deck in the room tonight and I really want to test against it. I think Decay is really the only card I cared about all night and did not see it once. So I guess I did ok there. Thing is 3 RIP main does its job against BUG, so I think that it might not be the worst match ever.
I post this, not because I think that RIP combo is the be all and end all, but because I think it is a choice and many people are discarding the option. Give it a go, I was happy with how it handled and I will try it again next week and see how it goes.
Edit
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
2 E Tutor
4 Swords
2 Counterspell
1 Entreat
4 Force
4 Terminus
Enchantments:
3 Counterbalance
1 Energy Field
3 Rip
2 Dentition Sphere
Artifacts:
4 Top
1 Helm
Walkers:
3 Jace
Lands:
Standard 22 for UWr with one of Karakas
Sideboard:
2 V Clique
1 E Tutor
2 REB
2 Wear
1 Entreat
1 Verdict
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Porphyry Nodes
1 Energy Field
1 Bloodmoon
1 Humility
1 Moat
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Dice_Box, do you have a list for reference?
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
I need winter tires before I need a Moat =P
It'll be interesting if more builds start to re-use "old tech" though.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
Oh yeah? Do you have those cards signed by Oarsman and Ein, with altered art?
Well..., a timely Blood Moon with relative clean board can push BUG/Sultai out of the game.
I'm replying to my own post just to try to get something going.
Playing Miracles vs. Tempo, we usually stabilize around 8-12 life, the game turns into a top decking war, and we usually win due to SDT, Jace, and other very power spells (superior card selection and card power).
As the Tempo deck play top decks, they can find a Brainstorm or Ponder, which provides them with one card. With Treasure Cruise, the tempo player can now draw 3 cards, which is really back-breaking. Treasure Cruise is making this a huge difference - against standard cantrips, Miracles has an advantage because we have superior card selection (standard Brainstorm and Ponder are about card selection, not card value, as they serve as a filter/replacement (excepting Brainstorm/replace junk/shuffle effect)). Treasure Cruise is card value, because they actually get to draw three new cards.
Anyway, very frustrating having a pseudo Ancestral Recall in Legacy. Thoughts on how to stop this beast?
Thank you!
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I posted before because I came in expecting that kind of issue and planed for it. Have a look at my post able, with Delver more common that Combo, I ran out a list that capsized on that and it worked. If your not seeing a lot of combo, you could get away with more hate for the cards that are an issue at the cost of the cards your seeing less of.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
While I STRONGLY question the competitiveness in an open meta, such as an SCG open and such, which you said yourself, I think this list is fucking awesome and love every thing about it. Fun over playing the best of the best, I'm on board with that! :) :) :)
@Water_Wizard
You can't stop Treasure Cruise consistently. You can play hate against it like Rest in Peace or you can counter it cheaply with a Counterspell but you can't reliably prevent it.
What you need to do is find more built-in card advantage to make up for the fact that the opponent will get off Treasure Cruise more often then you can stop it. Or you can just play it yourself and keep up with the Joneses. The problem is that you'll never trigger a Miracle off of either Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time.
If I was playing Miracles in this meta I'd add a Dig Through Time to the list, maybe 2 of them. Gotta keep up with the Joneses.
Sure, Abrupt Decay. It's beat by Misdirection. Misdirection is beat by Red blast. Red blast is beat by Counterbalance.
Abrupt Decay decks are good against Counterbalance no matter how many cards they're drawing, it's why Counterbalance is often sided out in those matchups.
♀
Or why G2 / G3 we can overload on targets. 4 Counterbalance + 2 Rest in Peace + 1 Blood Moon + 2 - 3 Cliques + whatever else vs. 4 Abrupt Decay makes said card not that scary.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
What are people's experiences with stoneforge + batterskull vs. delver of secret aggro-control decks ?
Delver decks are by far my worst match-ups.
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