My deck is:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Stifle
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wasteland
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Treasure Cruise
1 Spell Snare
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Fire Covenant
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Vendilion Clique
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 Chill
My sideboard is in flux at this time. My experience against Burn has been poor so I've included a Chill in the sideboard. Regarding the main, it is my belief that the first Spell Snare is better than the first Spell Pierce or the fourth Stifle so it is included here. In addition, I've given up on the two lands mana base for the moment. Taiga increases opening hand mulligans about 2% and is very poor when drawn in the early game against Wasteland decks. In general, I moved to four Deathrite Shaman and a 19th land in order to cast Treasure Cruise for three mana in game one. Also, I side out one or two lands against many decks.
Best regards,
mog
Thanks very much for sharing your list and your reasoning. With regards to Spell Snare, have you considered playing another Abrupt Decay over the Spell Snare? It seems very, very strong in the Miracles and D+T heavy East Coast metagame which we should expect at GP NJ. With regards to Treasure Cruise, it seems like this deck has the velocity to support all four. What has been your experience?Originally Posted by mog
I have considered the Abrupt Decay but I do not use it because the mana is the shakiest part of this deck and I think that a third Decay can cause problems against opponents playing Wasteland. That said, I do bring in two Golgari Charm and a Fire Covenant against Death and Taxes. In the case of Golgari Charm and Fire Covenant, I think the rewards are much greater than with Abrupt Decay and that they are worth the potential strain on the mana. In addition, I think Spell Snare provides additional utility against cards like Baleful Strix, Infernal Tutor, etc. that can't be covered by an Abrupt Decay. It's my way of trying to balance counters and board interaction in this deck. I think double Golgari Charm, Fire Covenant, and Umezawa's Jitte are enough to handle Death and Taxes. Regarding Miracles, I almost always lose to Jace, the Mind Sculptor, sweepers, and Swords to Plowshares rather than Counterbalance. That's been my experience, take it for what it's worth.
Regarding Treasure Cruise, while it has been great for me in testing, it is very slow at times given the number of reactive spells that are in the deck. It works very well when I have a hand full of cantrips and fetchlands and Lightning Bolt but can be very cumbersome with draws that include duals. I haven't done much testing with the fourth Treasure Cruise but it seems to me that a four Treasure Cruise deck needs to be more proactive with burn or Gitaxian Probe and run a higher proportion of fetchlands. It is the best possible topdeck in many midgame situations but it hasn't worked out well in multiples unless I already have a great draw. I'll test more with it in the future.
Not sure if people have seen this, but an interesting take on 4-color won second place at the Danish Legacy Masters this past weekend:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=8310&d=247776&f=LE
19 LANDS
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
13 CREATURES
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Snapcaster Mage
28 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Treasure Cruise
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
SIDEBOARD
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Envelop
2 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chain Lightning
1 Counterspell
1 Red Elemental Blast
Interesting choices include cutting Tarmogoyf completely (probably just to clean up the mana base even further, I imagine?) and Spell Snare (!?, seems terrible, but maybe I just don't understand at all).
Hi guys
That is my list. A couple of notes
1) The deck is pure theory-craft built. I had not tested it before the event. It is mostly based on success over the last few months playing RUG with true name nemesis instead of tarmogoyfs to accomodate a local meta overrun by 4c loam. List:http://mtgpulse.com/event/16761#236363 . It is not particularly rooted in 4c delver, and i think more of it as a u/r deck splashing deathrite shaman and abrubt decay.
2) The philosophy was to try to keep some of the power of the u/r delver lists running treasure cruise, while adding more grindy elements that gives a better miracles and combo matchup (shaman, decays, actual interaction beyond daze/force, sideboard)
The list obviously did some things right, but there were also some things i would work on going forward. In particular, because of the slow creature suite and the lack of stifle, it often felt like i was playing a slightly grindy controll deck, rather then a tempo deck. Specific observations:
A) Treasure cruise
This card was insane whenever i cast it. unfortunately it does not enable itself. I was often stuck with cruises without enough cards in the yard. This makes me feel like i should be playing more cantrips, either probe or thought scour
B) Creature configuration.
I am 100% sure that tarmogoyf is a terrible creature that i do not want in my decklist, because he gets trumped too easily by tnn and plowed all day long, i am however, not certain what to replace him with. in a meta full of Jund and 4c loam, i would certainly play true-name, but it might be that pyromancer is simply so synergistic with the cantrip plan that he is better. Snapcaster is also very usefull in a deck full of proactive 1 drop spells.
C) Spell snare/spell pierce
These were god-awfull for me all day. I don't remember a single time where i played them. They were primarily included in the list to give me combo interaction. They were bad already in the deathrite meta, but with treasure cruise they are even worse, because i want to cast my disruption pro-actively. I will be running thoughtseize going forward
D) Wastelands
I routinely sideboarded these out against combo and u/r delver to become more spell-dense. This makes me believe that this sort of deck, when playing as a treasure cruise deck, rather than as an agressive deck, might not want wasteland...
E) Manabase
The manabase is not optimal and collapses under a stiff breeze. This is even worse without stifle. Adding an extra land is certainly on the table....
Conclusions:
I feel like treasure cruise is one of the most powerfull cards in the format, and deckbuilding should start with 4 tc, and then work backwards as to how to enable it.
Next steps will be to experiment with embracing the cantrip tempo-controll role by cutting the dazes, adding more thought scours, probes and/or preordain, replacing snares and pierce with thoughtseize and operating with a creature suite with some combination of: 4 pyromancer, 4 snapcaster, 4 deathrite 4 true name nemesis and potentially delver.
I would be happy to hear your thoughts, comments or testing results. Please also feel free to throw any questions you might have. The list might not be well-tested, but many of the elements are based on lots of games with other decks, and i had quite strong reasons for chosing the exact 75 i did, even if i might do it differently tomorrow.
Thanks for the reply! Here are some thoughts about your observations:
I don't like the idea of playing cards just to fill up the graveyard for Cruise. It makes your cantrips worse (because you just cantrip into cantrips more often instead of actual gas) and your initial draws a lot higher variance since it's impossible to know ahead of time the value of the card you draw off of a Probe or a Thought Scour in your opening hand. I'd rather just play 4 Cruise and risk it. It's like Miracles - they play up to 6 miracles, none of which they ever want in their opening hand. But they do it anyway because they have ways to get them back in the deck (brainstorm). On top of that, we even can pitch them to Force.
I won't lie, this just sounds completely wrong to me, but I'm willing to test it to see for myself. I just love how Goyf can quickly close out games... Speaking of which, have you considered maindecking a Jitte or two? I think that sounds better than Snapcaster Mage, for what it's worth, since it loosens up your mana a bit and lets you actually close out games in a reasonable amount of time with TNN. Basically every deck can race 3 damage a turn, so I think you need to do something to speed up that clock.
These two issues go hand in hand, in my opinion. The mana denial plan of Wasteland is a lot weaker without Stifle or Hymn - basically every Delver deck before Treasure Cruise played one or the other. I think if you want to have a good mana denial plan, those extra counterspells (which you did not like) should just be Stifles.
And this is another reason to have stifle in the deck!
Pretty awkward questuon perhaps but how well did Abrupt Decay do for you maindeck? Did they end up being creature removal usually and if so is green worth anything other than DRS lifegain and sideboard options? Like could those Decays have been say Chain Lightning or Terminate? Could be an effort to make the manabase a tad tighter.
In my testing Abrupt Decay is obviously a strong card but has me setup such an awkward landbase on the battlefield that having a land wasted usually sets me back or straight up loses me the game. That's why I'm wondering.
That is very true as it now is a double splash and you will seldomly have Underground Sea and Tropical Island as the first lands with all those awesome red cards. This list is ever closer to the 4 TC UR Delver list. the only distinguishing point now is the Deathrite Ahaman and some sideboard cards.
Chalice on 1
I think if you want to go all-in on treasure cruise you run UR with 4x cruise, 4x probe, 4x swiftspear monk, 4x young pyromancer, 4x delver, 4x daze, 4x fow, 4x brainstorm, 4x ponder, 4x lightning bolt, lava dart, chain lightning, etc.
With bUrg, I think Treasure Cruise is a very powerful card, but I think 3 or 2 is the right number because with 4, we will draw it too many times without enough cards in the graveyard.
"Never argue with a fool, people might not know the difference."
I really enjoy playing the "spy Kids" version. It fit my play style and I am a bit tired of RUG & Goyf. I do not see RIP coming in for DRS or TC. I can see TC being fought with more versatile options such as REB and pierce.
Regarding Cabal therapy, I like the card as an option to fight anoying sideboard option for which our sideboard do not offer enough options, especially game 3 on the draw with the probe in the deck. My sideboard still require alot of work.
I am interested to hear more feedback about your build. I personnaly looking to play 2 TC in place of Edric and Fire/Ice.
I've trimmed a Stifle and a Wasteland for another two TCs, and have done some testing with a Pyroblast in place of the fourth FOW.
I'd like to see your tempo-control list :). Wouldn't Snapcasters and Cruises feel clunky if they're played in the same list ? Did you have any problems casting those during the tournament ?
Jemand musste Joseph K. verleumdet haben, denn ohne dass er etwas Böses getan hätte, wurde er eines Morgens verhaftet.
hi guys, thanks alot for all the comments.
Have been spending some time playing around with controllish snapcaster cruise builds (little success) and Team America (more success).
A couple of responses below:
Played around a bit with an 18 land, deathrite, snapcaster, pyromancer list with thought scours. it drew millions of cards and grinded all day long, but it was not particularly proactive and often lost to opponents who did something proactive that was hard to interact with, e.g. true name nemesis. Maybe playing the same deck with delver instead of pyromancers might work, but i think i am back on the proactive game-planI'd like to see your tempo-control list :). Wouldn't Snapcasters and Cruises feel clunky if they're played in the same list ? Did you have any problems casting those during the tournament ?
Still disagree. The delver mirror revolves around treasure cruise, and playing more cruise then your opponent is a sure way to win. I want 4. On a side note i have found 4 pretty easy to cast in Team America. I think it helps to play a more proactive build because your creatures by necessity either kill your opponent (win) or die and fuel treasure cruise (win)With bUrg, I think Treasure Cruise is a very powerful card, but I think 3 or 2 is the right number because with 4, we will draw it too many times without enough cards in the graveyard.
Yes abrubt decay was pretty awkward. I hope to fix this by adding an extra land. I think much of the appeal of playing the deck contra RUG or TA goes away if you can't have decay and bolt in the same deck. If this continues to be a problem i will not be playing 4 colorsPretty awkward questuon perhaps but how well did Abrupt Decay do for you maindeck? Did they end up being creature removal usually and if so is green worth anything other than DRS lifegain and sideboard options? Like could those Decays have been say Chain Lightning or Terminate? Could be an effort to make the manabase a tad tighter.
In my testing Abrupt Decay is obviously a strong card but has me setup such an awkward landbase on the battlefield that having a land wasted usually sets me back or straight up loses me the game. That's why I'm wondering.
See the comments above. I am now convinced that we can play 4 in a build without thought scours, provided that we are quite proactiveI don't like the idea of playing cards just to fill up the graveyard for Cruise. It makes your cantrips worse (because you just cantrip into cantrips more often instead of actual gas) and your initial draws a lot higher variance since it's impossible to know ahead of time the value of the card you draw off of a Probe or a Thought Scour in your opening hand. I'd rather just play 4 Cruise and risk it. It's like Miracles - they play up to 6 miracles, none of which they ever want in their opening hand. But they do it anyway because they have ways to get them back in the deck (brainstorm). On top of that, we even can pitch them to Force.
My perspective is perhaps a bit colored from playing alot against jund, miracles, d&t and 4c loam, all decks against which tarmogoyf is just a big dumb beater. With nemesis it is alot easier to go into aggro control mode because you can ignore large parts of their deck. Tarmogoyf is however very good in the delver mirror where bolts are removal of choice and lands are scarce. He is certainly quite good against the u-r delver deck, and makes your deathrites, dazes and wastelands much better. Maybe a 4 goyf TA style list is betterI won't lie, this just sounds completely wrong to me, but I'm willing to test it to see for myself. I just love how Goyf can quickly close out games... Speaking of which, have you considered maindecking a Jitte or two? I think that sounds better than Snapcaster Mage, for what it's worth, since it loosens up your mana a bit and lets you actually close out games in a reasonable amount of time with TNN. Basically every deck can race 3 damage a turn, so I think you need to do something to speed up that clock.
On the topic of Jitte, i have not generally been a fan of the card because of mana requirements, but it is very good on some of the late-game board states where i have resolved cruises, so i might try it out somewhere in the 75
I saw alot of stifle decks do well over the weekend, so there is clearly some resonance to the idea. I am not convinced, however that i want to be a mana denial deck when people are ancestral recalling left and right, i think i would rather be winning the ancestral war. My current top dogs for the anti spell slot are thoughtseize and flusterstorm (which is surprisingly good at winning cruise wars)These two issues go hand in hand, in my opinion. The mana denial plan of Wasteland is a lot weaker without Stifle or Hymn - basically every Delver deck before Treasure Cruise played one or the other. I think if you want to have a good mana denial plan, those extra counterspells (which you did not like) should just be Stifles.
I like Kevin King's list from the Eternal Weekend - Legacy Trials Top 8:
http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...4/legacytrials
// Creature [13]
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Young Pyromancer
2 True-Name Nemesis
// Instant [20]
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
// Sorcery [9]
4 Ponder
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Treasure Cruise
// Land [18]
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Wasteland
// Sideboard [15]
2 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Dismember
1 Fire Covenant
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Cabal Therapy
I have a simple question for the very few people that play this deck. How do you ever beat UR Delver?
Drop Mungo or Goyf on the Battlefield
I've tested a classic list with Mungos against it. Its not that hard. Just play the Control Deck, the hardest creature to beat is the Pyromancer because of the Tokens, but i play 3 Snare all the time, so it is ok. Without Pyromancer a treshed Mungo or a 4/5 Goyf is so hard to beat for them.
I think you should play more 1 mana Spot Removal at the Moment. I play 2 Disfigures and a Darkblast in my SB, u can easily play more disfigures (for cutting 1 Decay from the Main if u like)
i'm boarding in 3 red blast, 3 flusterstorm, 2 disfigure 1 darkblast
@Blablub: Would you mind sharing your list please?
What do you think are the pros and cons of playing the Young Pyro version over the Tarmogoyf version?
Playing the YP list, how do you beat UR delver? Without Goyf or Mongoose it seems hard. Maybe Snare in the main? Electrickery in the board?
It's interesting to see that BURG hasn't been totally forgotten. It's still my pet deck and I've always really enjoyed it. I figured Treasure Cruise would make an impact here as well. I transformed my old UR Delver deck in the new version and yes ... Treasure Cruise is the shit, absolutely. However, I'm not really sure it works in BURG. I still need to test it out, because I would love to make room for it. I've never cared much for Nimble Mongoose. It just feels too slow for me at times and has always felt like a bummer having in the early few turns. With Swiftspear running around (another 1/2 creature), I can only see it becoming worse and worse. I'm thinking of removing the Geese for the 4 Delver / 4 Goyf / 4 Deathrite / (1 Clique/whatever) setup and adding another land (probably a fetch). However, I see all these lists just trying to jam 4 TC's in them and dropping Stifle. I don't know ... it just looks wrong to me. UR Delver (running 17 land, 3 basics and 4 duals, 10 fetch) and BUG are both heavy on fetches and Stifles will only create more blowouts. I do however feel that the list could hold 2 (maybe 3) Treasure Cruises and I think that would be a fine adjustment. 4 of them feels right in UR Delver due to the volatile nature of the deck. Not sure if BURG would be the same with it, since it's not running Swiftspear and 7+ Bolts.
Exactly. Water_Wizard said it perfectly. UR Delver seems like the perfect shell for the Cruise, BURG not so much. I've always seen BURG as RUG with Abrupt Decay (personally) and I just don't feel Cruise is a tempo card. It's great for grindy matches or decks like UR Delver, where Swiftspear just keeps getting fuel (in a way, sometimes it feels a bit like a combo deck, ha).
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote