Miracle Control

[zeus-online]

It appears that the focus is too much on locking the RUG player out early rather than stalling their clock until their manadenial and taxing counters lose their effectivity and your card-quality paired with constant landdrops takes over the game.

Wait what, that was your suggestion not mine. I specifically said that i thought counterbalance was an end-game card against them because it does not deal with their early threats.
You where the one who responded to my post by saying "...all their spells get stuck in counterbalance" which to me at least implies that you think it is advisable to just slam it down as soon as possible.

[Lemnear]

Wait what, that was your suggestion not mine. I specifically said that i thought counterbalance was an end-game card against them because it does not deal with their early threats.
You where the one who responded to my post by saying "...all their spells get stuck in counterbalance" which to me at least implies that you think it is advisable to just slam it down as soon as possible.

Then we agree that Counterbalance is a card to lock up the match after you handled the initial attack. Sorry for the confusion. I'm eager to hear what your problem with the deck is outside of their fantastic starts and follow ups.


A radical idea folks: what about making some adjustments to the MBs early game to support the cut of MB FoW for Pyroblasts? Unless you play against Storm/Belcher/All spells, the FoW is really not that hot and with Pyroblast adressing the Mirror, Delver and S&T variants which cover a large part of the metagame, I suspect such a switch to be justifiable if backed up with other adjustments in the MB to not give away games against combo that easy (I'm sure you guys get the point here). Not having to 2-for-1 yourself against the mentioned stuff and also craze like Treeasue Cruise sounds nice on paper. Gimme ya 0.02$

[Dice_Box]

Not a fan of how hard Chalice would wreck you if you did that. I also like having the option of saying No to Vial early and I like being about to lay out a Top early without having to worry about being tapped out. The mana base would also have to be totally reworked.

Most of all I like having that threat that comes with having two cards in hand.

[Lemnear]

Not a fan of how hard Chalice would wreck you if you did that. I also like having the option of saying No to Vial early and I like being about to lay out a Top early without having to worry about being tapped out. The mana base would also have to be totally reworked.

Most of all I like having that threat that comes with having two cards in hand.

Wouldn't you board Wear/Tear anyways? You are correct on decks MD'g Chalice and to an extend, Vial. I just wanted to threw in the idea, now that non-blue decks are on an all-time low. Numbers game. Guess you could even throw in Elves and stopping their Glimpse/NO, but that's why I said that other cards, like Pierce, might be needed to make their comback to the MB instead of counterspells/Snapcasters/etc. to make the wheel spin

[Nihilis]

Then we agree that Counterbalance is a card to lock up the match after you handled the initial attack. Sorry for the confusion. I'm eager to hear what your problem with the deck is outside of their fantastic starts and follow ups.


A radical idea folks: what about making some adjustments to the MBs early game to support the cut of MB FoW for Pyroblasts? Unless you play against Storm/Belcher/All spells, the FoW is really not that hot and with Pyroblast adressing the Mirror, Delver and S&T variants which cover a large part of the metagame, I suspect such a switch to be justifiable if backed up with other adjustments in the MB to not give away games against combo that easy (I'm sure you guys get the point here). Not having to 2-for-1 yourself against the mentioned stuff and also craze like Treeasue Cruise sounds nice on paper. Gimme ya 0.02$

Seems perfectly viable. Joe has been running only 3 FoWs for a while now alongside MB blasts, though his list seems well configured to support this (2 Spell Pierces, Ciques, Venser....)

Mainboard blasts I feel seem to be the way to go at the moment, alongside a basic mountain. Delver decks are gaining in popularity, and having extra MB cheap counter/removal for both treasure cruise and delver is exceptional. Not to mention the edge you get in the mirror.

[Dice_Box]

I am not saying that the idea of maindecking REB's is without merit, I just feel cutting Force for them feels like an overly drastic action. Yea, 2 for 1ing oneself is painful, but the effect is very strong and I would want to keep at lest 3 of them in my deck.

There are no small amount of decks that REB is a totally dead draw, but the same can be said for Swords, so I am am unsure if that's really too strong an argument. It's a toss up, but I feel like you really want to keep some number of Force in and add on top of that, not subtract and then try and build a totally new foundation.

[JBMage]

Then we agree that Counterbalance is a card to lock up the match after you handled the initial attack. Sorry for the confusion. I'm eager to hear what your problem with the deck is outside of their fantastic starts and follow ups.


A radical idea folks: what about making some adjustments to the MBs early game to support the cut of MB FoW for Pyroblasts? Unless you play against Storm/Belcher/All spells, the FoW is really not that hot and with Pyroblast adressing the Mirror, Delver and S&T variants which cover a large part of the metagame, I suspect such a switch to be justifiable if backed up with other adjustments in the MB to not give away games against combo that easy (I'm sure you guys get the point here). Not having to 2-for-1 yourself against the mentioned stuff and also craze like Treeasue Cruise sounds nice on paper. Gimme ya 0.02$

How do feel about this list for your purposes:

** MAIN **
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 force of will
2 counterspell
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 spell pierce

3 terminus
2 entreat the angels
1 supreme verdict

4 counterbalance

4 sensei's divining top

3 jace, the mind sculptur

5 island
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
2 arid mesa
2 plains
1 volcanic island
1 mountain
1 karakas

** SIDE **
2 engineered explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 rest in peace
1 relic of progenitus
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 spell pierce
1 council's judgement
1 wear // tear
1 vendilion clique
1 pithing needle
1 terminus

You don´t give up totally on combo or aggro matchups, but you are significantly better against delver and treasure cruise (current meta)...

[twndomn]

I’m fairly new to this deck though not new to the game, and I have a peculiar challenge to deal with. Still, I doubt that I’m alone.

There is a local DnT player, quite a strong one, who has recently begun playing green cards in his deck: not only Gaddock Teeg as a 2-3, but at least one Sylvan Library. I am pretty worried about this. It is difficult to get through a local event without playing him as he tends to do well.

Do I have options available other than Pithing Needle, Pyroclasm, and removal for his artifacts/creatures/enchantment? Should I attempt to Blood Moon him? He has been forced to give up his Cataclysms: is there a way to punish him for that?

Thank you in advance.

No, don't Blood Moon. Yes, Izzet Staticaster. DnT often SB out a few StP against Miracles. Bait them into using Wasteland, and then play your Karakas to bounce Teeg. Focus on fighting off the Taxing element and pay close attention to Vial activation, then you'll be fine.

[Lemnear]

How do feel about this list for your purposes:

** MAIN **
2 snapcaster mage
2 vendilion clique

4 brainstorm
4 swords to plowshares
3 force of will
2 counterspell
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 spell pierce

3 terminus
2 entreat the angels
1 supreme verdict

4 counterbalance

4 sensei's divining top

3 jace, the mind sculptur

5 island
4 scalding tarn
4 flooded strand
3 tundra
2 arid mesa
2 plains
1 volcanic island
1 mountain
1 karakas

** SIDE **
2 engineered explosives
2 flusterstorm
2 rest in peace
1 relic of progenitus
1 red elemental blast
1 pyroblast
1 spell pierce
1 council's judgement
1 wear // tear
1 vendilion clique
1 pithing needle
1 terminus

You don´t give up totally on combo or aggro matchups, but you are significantly better against delver and treasure cruise (current meta)...

I do not want to go into detail about the SB, but I have no Love for all the clunky stuff in the MB like Cliques, Snapcaster (less need to recycle Plows due to pyroblast killing Delver and shit), verdicts and counterspells as that would us bring back to the topic of having a bad time against Tempo like we had at the beginning of this page. Take these slots and the FoWs, replace all these with Ponder, Pyroblasts and Pierces, adjust the manabase (I hate basic mountain; 2 Volcanics are enough) and you get close to what I had in mind

[exallium]

I do not want to go into detail about the SB, but I have no Love for all the clunky stuff in the MB like Cliques, Snapcaster (less need to recycle Plows due to pyroblast killing Delver and shit), verdicts and counterspells as that would us bring back to the topic of having a bad time against Tempo like we had at the beginning of this page. Take these slots and the FoWs, replace all these with Ponder, Pyroblasts and Pierces, adjust the manabase (I hate basic mountain; 2 Volcanics are enough) and you get close to what I had in mind

Doesn't basic mountain become more important when you're wanting to use blast effects vs. the delver decks?

[JBMage]

I do not want to go into detail about the SB, but I have no Love for all the clunky stuff in the MB like Cliques, Snapcaster (less need to recycle Plows due to pyroblast killing Delver and shit), verdicts and counterspells as that would us bring back to the topic of having a bad time against Tempo like we had at the beginning of this page. Take these slots and the FoWs, replace all these with Ponder, Pyroblasts and Pierces, adjust the manabase (I hate basic mountain; 2 Volcanics are enough) and you get close to what I had in mind

Seems like you approach this matchup very differently than me.

Don't know how can you remove so much cards (clique, snapcaster, verdict, fow, counterspell..) from the board and continue to be consistent versus the rest of the field (non-delver).

Nice to see the same archetype with so different game style.

[Lemnear]

Doesn't basic mountain become more important when you're wanting to use blast effects vs. the delver decks?

I'm rather running a bicycle race without seat than adding basics for splash colors. Having the basic mountain in your opener is a nightmare

Seems like you approach this matchup very differently than me.

Don't know how can you remove so much cards (clique, snapcaster, verdict, fow, counterspell..) from the board and continue to be consistent versus the rest of the field (non-delver).

Nice to see the same archetype with so different game style.

The meta is 65%+ blue anyways (even Elves splash blue at times for Swan Song). If your opponent isn't running Delver, you'll find targets for Pyroblast in their cantrips (combo, 12-post, Blade) . If your opponent isn't running blue at all and offers no targets for Pyroblast, then he's playing something that pretty likely falls prey to creature removal or graveyard-hate. (MUD, Lands, Aggro, etc.)

[Cipher]

Cutting Spell Pierce and Force of Will would just be so greedy. There's a point where you stop even being a control deck and become a collection of assorted Sensei's Top combos + cantrips.

[Lemnear]

Cutting Spell Pierce and Force of Will would just be so greedy. There's a point where you stop even being a control deck and become a collection of assorted Sensei's Top combos + cantrips.

No one was talking about dismissing BOTh. I said clearly that I can see Pyroblast + Pierce as your main countersuit

[grabacr]

Hello everyone. I have been experimenting with Esper Miracles for a while and have produced positive results. I know this is a tangent from the current discussion on Delver decks, but I promise its a bit relevant. The changes in Esper from Jeskai are instead of playing red for the counter magic/blood moon, I play discard (thougtseize, inquisition, Duress, etc.) Because the black spells are 1 mana discard, i dont surrender to mana denial just like Jeskai miracles. In my version of esper, I play 4 islands and 2 plains for the basics and 2 underground seas and 1 scrubland for the black with mix of fetches, tundras and Karakas'. Since i am not dependent on black (with only three discard MB) I have little qualms about getting basics in the beginning and setting a foundation for later in the game. Another thing I have been trying was Rest In Peace/Helm MB for various reasons: 1) Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time seem to be getting popular, 2) Makes Game 1 with graveyard decks an easier win 3) Provides a 5 turn clock from turn 0 (this last one is the least likely to happen and is more of the icing on a cake). How this performs against Delver decks? The way I built the deck makes it acceptable to fetch basics in the beginning. As one of you mentioned, stalling the game to the point where mana denial is useless is the strategy I use and built the deck around. Also the Rest in Peaces make the scary green things less scary as most of you probably know. lastly, because of discard, I can carve my opponents hand instead of replacing a card with clique. Also discard is a nice way to eat counter magic since it cant be blasted. The gameplan with Esper miracles against Delver can be the same with other decks too but with different degrees. Use discard to mess with the opponent. Although I have only tested the build in locals and other players, the deck performs well. I know that is not proper demarcation for a proficient deck, but its something. Heres my list:

MB
Lands 23
4 Island
2 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Underground sea
1 Scrubland
4 F Strand
4 P Delta
1 Marsh F
2 Karakas

Creatures 1
1 Vendilion Clique

Spells 23
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of will
1 Spell pierce
1 Counterspell
3 Swords to plowshares
2 thoughtseize
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Council's Judgment

Other spells 13
4 Sensei's top
3 Counterbalance
1 Helm of Obedience
3 Rest in Peace
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor

SB
2 Pithing Needle
1 Cursed Totem
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Venser
1 Spell Pierce
1 Flusterstorm
1 Terminus
2 Duress
2 Ethersworn canonist
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull

[twndomn]

I play discard (thougtseize, inquisition, Duress, etc.) Because the black spells are 1 mana discard, i dont surrender to mana denial just like Jeskai miracles.

Saying the deck performs well is not convincing. The topic of Esper Miracles has been discussed before. Here's my take: There're only 2 cards involving Black that're worthy of consideration: 1. Engineered Plague. 2. Notion Thief. In the world full of Treasure Cruises, the Thief looks appealing. In certain local meta, having Plague is pretty incredible. And... that's about it as far as Black goes.

Discard is pointless, almost vomit inducing, when you try to compare it against Blasts. Your list also has SFM in the SB, do you know what that means? You want to play Esper Stoneblade all along, you are just an inferior version of Esper Stoneblade, happens to have Miracle cards in it.

[Ltj999]

Saying the deck performs well is not convincing. The topic of Esper Miracles has been discussed before. Here's my take: There're only 2 cards involving Black that're worthy of consideration: 1. Engineered Plague. 2. Notion Thief. In the world full of Treasure Cruises, the Thief looks appealing. In certain local meta, having Plague is pretty incredible. And... that's about it as far as Black goes.

Discard is pointless, almost vomit inducing, when you try to compare it against Blasts. Your list also has SFM in the SB, do you know what that means? You want to play Esper Stoneblade all along, you are just an inferior version of Esper Stoneblade, happens to have Miracle cards in it.

I totally agree, although I dont know if I would have said it as harshly. Miracles....UWr miracles, wants to be reigning over the stack at all times, we dont care whats in their hand. Our stack control is what develops us card advantage in the end game, different from other decks that run B discard.

[Brentane]

Hello guys, gonna proxy up a Miracles list to try it out as it looks like a lot of fun for a control deck (love controlling my top deck). Can somebody give me a basic build to proxy up because even after the primer, don't know what to actually proxy in the flex spots. Prefer a version without a creature spell. Thank you.

[Dragonslayer_90]

So I'm having a hard time with UR Delver. It might be just my inexperience with Miracles or the MU but I want your guys' input. What are the important aspects of this MU? I know that Counterbalance is pretty important here but not much beyond that...

[twndomn]

So I'm having a hard time with UR Delver. It might be just my inexperience with Miracles or the MU but I want your guys' input. What are the important aspects of this MU? I know that Counterbalance is pretty important here but not much beyond that...

1. which build are you on? Ponder build? Legend build?

2. which UR Delver? The UR Delver with Price of Progress or the UR Delver with Treasure Cruise?