All B/R update speculation.

[DLifshitz]

but it certainly can be beat with GY hate.

As has been pointed out all over the Internet already, blanket graveyard hate is inefficient against many of the lists that are now playing Cruise. It's always been good against BUG Delver with 4 DRS, 4 Goyfs in addition to Cruise because they have trouble winning while it's in play. The others (Blade, URx Delver) can play around it fairly easily.

[Gheizen64]

Damn i didn't notice it at first but TC is actually non-misdirectable. Jesus christ what a card.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Damn i didn't notice it at first but TC is actually non-misdirectable. Jesus christ what a card.

It is way too early to call for a ban. Right now it does not seem like the meta game has changed. Treasure Cruise is showing up in all sorts of tempo decks or fair decks with cantrips but we can't yet say that the power levels have really shifted.

Brainstorm and Ponder are still a way more common theme among the top decks.

Right now I see Treasure Cruise as a format staple but not banworthy. Actually I think it changes the meta game in an interesting way to further increase the value of Spirit of the Labyrinth, Notion Thief etc..
Not too thrilled about increased value for maindeck gy hate as I think graveyard hate is way too strong at this point.

I really wish WotC designed cards to combat graveyard hate so that these sideboard plans don't completely eliminate gy decks. I would like to see for example a black hatebear that you could sac to return all exiled cards back to the graveyard or a reverse Relic of Progenitus.

[Gheizen64]

I don't think TC need banning, but with blue getting another critical card i could really see BS being banned this time, especially when you consider that a lot of the power of Delver come from it. The GP will tell a lot about the format.
Also, while TC is really good, it's also a pretty unique card in the sense that's a draw spell that encourage you to play a consistently low curve/proactive deck, fit badly in AdN because of its cmc, and become completely dead in face of GY hate. BS is just a generic ( overpowered) cantrip spell and there's already Ponder and Preordain (+ SDT) ready to replace it, unlike TC, TNN or Delver which are way more unique and archetype defining. So if you want to see blue getting powered down but not lose any archetype, BS is the way to go for sure, as much as i hate Delver and TNN conceptually for being absolutely not blue.
Banning BS would also make discard much stronger due to the impossibility the hide key cards, which in turn would make a black core for decks viable and not only blue, since discard would be so much stronger against combo, and combo in general would lose more comparably to control/tempo from losing brainstorm (free mulls are much more valuable in decks which search a particular combination of cards over decks which have redundancy).

That or wait for WotC to print a red/green/white/black mistake instead of their nth blue "mistake" in a row (Snapcaster = red, Delver = black, TNN = white etc...)

[nedleeds]

How long do people suppose that Brainstorm will last? Next ban cycle? Indefinitely?

I personally don't think it's long for this format. This is a card that provides Blue with an unfair advantage over non-Blue decks. Similar to Tarmogoyf, the only 'hoop' you have to jump through to enable Brainstorm is to play fetchlands. Card draw is an extremely powerful mechanic in a game that revolves around cards as resources, and filling the graveyard is especially easy in Eternal formats due to the high density of cheap spells and non-permanent interaction.

Brainstorm has proven itself as a viable draw engine in Vintage, where it's stone fucking restricted. Obviously, Legacy and Vintage are apples to oranges and there are very different considerations for each format. My point is simply to show that while the barrier of playability is much, much higher in Vintage, this is still a card that can step toe-to-toe with cards that are already banned in Legacy.

Fixed this for you. Brainstorm is more powerful, requires less setup and commitment, and is more ubiquitous. Anyone calling for Cruise to be banned but saying Brainstorm is fucking delusional.

[Barook]

Why not both? Legacy is long overdue to get rid of the blue dominance to unfuck itself.

At the current pace, we're going for a full blue Top 16 with the exception of some Elves as the token nonblue decks at GP Brainstorm.

That said, it's hard to say how much impact TC is going to have at the GP. People are rapidly adopting it now, so the numbers are probably only going to increase alot.

We also have a wild card in form of Commander 2014 where they could drop some TNN-tier horseshit bomb into meta one week before the GP. And knowing Wizards, said bomb is either blue or run in a blue shell for maximum effectiveness.

[nedleeds]

I've given up hope that they care, we can't fire weekly legacy anymore or it barely fires with 8-10, where as we used to get 20-30 ... some people have sold out but the majority still have their cards. At a minimum there have to be some unbannings ... I mean Mind Twist is pretty much laughable at this point -- I twist you and you Brainstorm and hide your Treasure Cruise ... if by some miracle it resolves then you untap and have food for your Ancestral. Nice turn. Unbanning Vise might make people think about drawing back up to 7 at Sorcery speed (or probably not actually ...).

[btm10]

Fixed this for you. Brainstorm is more powerful, requires less setup and commitment, and is more ubiquitous. Anyone calling for Cruise to be banned but saying Brainstorm is fucking delusional.

The difference is that while it's obvious that Brainstorm won't (and I would contend, shouldn't) be banned, there's a fair chance the Cruise would be if it were slotted into every blue deck. Is the format a little stale? Yes. I'd love to see some unbannings too; probably starting with Survival, Earthcraft, and Frantic Search (Mind Twist is, as you said, irrelevant).

But Brainstorm will never be banned.

[easysantiago]

To those who want Brainstorm banned: can you accept Treasure Cruise as a functional reprint with one added caveat that the format will now main board more graveyard hate? In what other ways will the format look different with TC in place of BS?

[Darkenslight]

To those who want Brainstorm banned: can you accept Treasure Cruise as a functional reprint with one added caveat that the format will now main board more graveyard hate? In what other ways will the format look different with TC in place of BS?

Better (in terms of more varied); Tempo would lose its critical Draw-3, Combo would occasionally crap itself and non-Elves! non-Burn aggro might actually stand a chance against Sneak decks. The major losers would be Delver-based aggro and Miracles, as Delver wouldn't be able to fix its flips and Miracles wouldn't be able to put its namesake cards on top from their hand.

[Dice_Box]

To those who want Brainstorm banned: can you accept Treasure Cruise as a functional reprint with one added caveat that the format will now main board more graveyard hate? In what other ways will the format look different with TC in place of BS?

Yay, ban Brainstorm is back. We took a few weeks break but the merry go round continues.

As said above, you would harm Delver and Miracles. You also really need to push on filling your yard to make it work too. I think if you only had TC RIP would become a much more played card and a good amount of the early manipulation that is seen in combo would be hampered. You would see a lot more Blue midrange, a massive reduction in Miracles and Combo and you would see a good amount of the format converge onto one sided grave hate.

Personally, not really what I want to see happen.

[LOLWut]

I've given up hope that they care, we can't fire weekly legacy anymore or it barely fires with 8-10, where as we used to get 20-30 ... some people have sold out but the majority still have their cards. At a minimum there have to be some unbannings ... I mean Mind Twist is pretty much laughable at this point -- I twist you and you Brainstorm and hide your Treasure Cruise ... if by some miracle it resolves then you untap and have food for your Ancestral. Nice turn. Unbanning Vise might make people think about drawing back up to 7 at Sorcery speed (or probably not actually ...).

Maybe Atlanta just sucks? I spend my time in two cities, and both get more for Legacy than in the past. And yes, things should be unbanned.

[Megadeus]

We get above average turn outs for legacy SCGs. Also we got three SCGs this year. The players here just are tired of the format because it's pretty stale at this point.

And to the poster who said he would hate to see a brainstorm ban because then there would be less miracles and delver and more non blue aggro... I'm so confused. You would be unhappy with more viable decks and more variety? I for one loved when I first got into legacy that I could go a whole tourney and not play against the same deck twice. Now? Last star city I played against 2 delver, 2 miracles, stoneblade, and elves. Nice format

[Nielsie]

I am all for a ban on Brainstorm but I would understand we first try some unbannings. With all the blue crap flying around I think the following would be perfectly fine to unban:

- Mind Twist: because nobody cares anyway...
- Black Vise: this would be a great anti-brainstorm card
- Goblin Recruiter: is this realy so degenerate or only time consuming? I don't think it's anymore timeconsuming than an Elves player who is glimpsing, symbioting, etc. or a Storm player trying to find the perfect chain after a not so great adnauseum or a high-tide player... This is the Goblin that Goblins needs to be almost viable again.
- Survival: it doesn't seem all that more degenerate than island, petal, petal, flying spaghetti monster or 7/7 lifelink Yawgmoth's Bargain...
- Memory Jar: this would be MUD's brainstorm

[Wanderlust]

I think an important difference between Treasure Cruise and Brainstorm is that Treasure Cruise is truly card advantage. In Legacy, true card advantage has been hard to come by for a very long time - you either get it at 4 mana (Jace) or it's very vulnerable to removal (Dark Confidant) or you have to jump through hoops in terms of deck building (Glimpse of Nature in Elves, Life from the Loam in Lands, Ancestral Visions in BUG.) Treasure Cruise feels out of place to me in Legacy because it is major card advantage with minimal deckbuilding constraints. And I don't think "just pack more graveyard hate" is going to cut it - the decks in which Cruise is best will laugh at your Rest in Peace or Relic as they beat you down with a horde of 1/1 elementals and 3/2 flyers and Brainstorm their dead Cruises back on top to shuffle them away. Tonight I'm feeling on the Treasure Cruise banwagon: I liked that in Legacy pre-Khans you had to work hard for your card advantage.

And yes to unbannings!

[Gheizen64]

I think an important difference between Treasure Cruise and Brainstorm is that Treasure Cruise is truly card advantage. In Legacy, true card advantage has been hard to come by for a very long time - you either get it at 4 mana (Jace) or it's very vulnerable to removal (Dark Confidant) or you have to jump through hoops in terms of deck building (Glimpse of Nature in Elves, Life from the Loam in Lands, Ancestral Visions in BUG.) Treasure Cruise feels out of place to me in Legacy because it is major card advantage with minimal deckbuilding constraints. And I don't think "just pack more graveyard hate" is going to cut it - the decks in which Cruise is best will laugh at your Rest in Peace or Relic as they beat you down with a horde of 1/1 elementals and 3/2 flyers and Brainstorm their dead Cruises back on top to shuffle them away. Tonight I'm feeling on the Treasure Cruise banwagon: I liked that in Legacy pre-Khans you had to work hard for your card advantage.

And yes to unbannings!

Tbh brainstorm is card advantage that require much less deckbuilding (play fetches). Cruise is more restrictive on deckbuilding and can be hated out more easily mostly because you can't cast Cruise first 3 turns, meaning cards like Chains or SoL are actually effective against it, unlike against BS.

[Sloshthedark]

We get above average turn outs for legacy SCGs. Also we got three SCGs this year. The players here just are tired of the format because it's pretty stale at this point.

And to the poster who said he would hate to see a brainstorm ban because then there would be less miracles and delver and more non blue aggro... I'm so confused. You would be unhappy with more viable decks and more variety? I for one loved when I first got into legacy that I could go a whole tourney and not play against the same deck twice. Now? Last star city I played against 2 delver, 2 miracles, stoneblade, and elves. Nice format

If it's stale it's because of card availability and Scg netdecking circuit ... OMG because you're playing Scg, that's what you get the when game get's more standarded to Standard by articles, opinion makers and no time/experience to make competent decisions, hivemind -> delusion and whining ... dedicated (even soft criteria - playing more than 3 years) Legacy players are much less than 50% of Legacy playing community (because of increase of player base, prices, adulthood etc), for few years legacy is not in hands of legacy players (if it has ever been)

last 2 big European tournaments I played 14 different decks (including 2 trials) out of total 15 rounds and 12 different decks out of 15 rounds (incl sideevent and trial)! In 16 ppl LGS I play 2 same decks in a 4 round event hardly every other week... and I'd be totaly fine with what you played against

problem is netdecking = time and psychology (if you really want difference between legacy 2010 you can add OP splashable new prints like DRS, SFM that limit usable cardpool and the reason why deck are converging or undistinguishable into postmodern roulette - this cannot be undone!, without massive degeneration)

[btm10]

- Memory Jar: this would be MUD's brainstorm

No, no. No, no, no, no, no. Jar is super busted.

More seriously, putting an effectively asymmetric draw7 into Legacy will not do anything good for the health of the format. It will get run in MUD and maybe in 12post. It will definitely be run in combo. I'm all for strengthening combo decks right now, but Jar would probably help too much.

[Lemnear]

No, no. No, no, no, no, no. Jar is super busted.

More seriously, putting an effectively asymmetric draw7 into Legacy will not do anything good for the health of the format. It will get run in MUD and maybe in 12post. It will definitely be run in combo. I'm all for strengthening combo decks right now, but Jar would probably help too much.

The only advantage of Jar is that it doesn't give your opponent a fresh hand to untap with, but 5 mana for a symmetrical draw is still bad for combo. It would be busted for MUD and 12-post however.

[kravkenov]

Tbh brainstorm is card advantage that require much less deckbuilding (play fetches).

Brainstorm is not card advantage but card quality. After resolving Brainstorm, you do not have more card in hand (no card advantage) but better card in hand (card quality).
In contrario, Treasure Cruise is card-advantage. After resolving, Treasure Cruise net you +2 cards in hand.

Cruise is more restrictive on deckbuilding and can be hated out more easily mostly because you can't cast Cruise first 3 turns.

If you choose to fight Treasure Cruise with Grave Hate (assuming you dont play blue) :
- you do not advance your game plan
- you have to keep your hate on the board
- you will never 100% disrupt opponent TC strategies
--> you stay behind Treasure Cruise player (Building your deck to fight a specific card).



Another good card-advantage card is Gush. Despite its "huge" draw-back (return 2 islands), it is a proven effective draw-engine that is banned in legacy because too much effective draw engine.
Treasure Cruise draw-back is "play spells and drop fetch" which IMO is a much less relevant draw-back than Gush while giving you more card advantage.
Resolving even only one TC push you way ahead in the game. It give you gas for casting spells, which set-up your graveyard to chain into your next Treasure.
IMO It is an unfair card that should be banned asap in modern, legacy and vintage (restricted).