All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

Got to agree with that assessment. I would hate to see Terminus go though. Outside of Lands, Miracles is the last real control deck left in the format. I would really not want to see it cut down. That said, I can not argue that Terminus is not exactly healthy.

[Zombie]

Got to agree with that assessment. I would hate to see Terminus go though. Outside of Lands, Miracles is the last real control deck left in the format. I would really not want to see it cut down. That said, I can not argue that Terminus is not exactly healthy.

There's plenty of good mass removal in the format. You know, Pyroclasm is a card and kills damn near everything. Could just play a mix of that and Verdict or something.

[Gheizen64]

Got to agree with that assessment. I would hate to see Terminus go though. Outside of Lands, Miracles is the last real control deck left in the format. I would really not want to see it cut down. That said, I can not argue that Terminus is not exactly healthy.

This is really beating a dead horse, but all three of those cards are massively stronger because of Brainstorm, Show and Tell and Terminus especially. Show and tell would probably downright fold if they couldn't hide SnT from discard and/or search it with BS and get bumped down half a tier if not a full tier. Not being able to put a Terminus you drew on top of library would also severely cripple its reliability as a sweeper, and drawing it in your starting 7 would make it useless barring later Jaces or using looting or scroll rack. However i think that if BS really got banned, the probable increase in midrange (and TNN) would stil make Terminus an extremely strong choice even with the decreasd reliability. Delver would probably be the least affected, but it would still make the creature slightly less reliable by both removing the strongest 4 instants from the decks from flipping it, and the ability to put an instant/sorcery on top at demand.
The only thing i dislike is that TNN would probably get better in a post-BS world. And i really dislike that card.

[Dice_Box]

There's plenty of good mass removal in the format. You know, Pyroclasm is a card and kills damn near everything. Could just play a mix of that and Verdict or something.

Oh I know, but I for every list of Pros you make about a card like Verdict, I can make one at lest 3 times as long for Terminus. There is a reason that Terminus is the more heavily played card and should it find itself banned, I think I would stick to playing Lands and Painter when I want to watch the light leave peoples eyes when they see me as their matchup.

[Zombie]

Oh I know, but I for every list of Pros you make about a card like Verdict, I can make one at lest 3 times as long for Terminus. There is a reason that Terminus is the more heavily played card and should it find itself banned, I think I would stick to playing Lands and Painter when I want to watch the light leave peoples eyes when they see me as their matchup.

Obviously Terminus is a million times better. The question is whether you need a removal spell that superlative to keep Miracles as a deck alive now that it's been tuned and when most of the format dies to other cheap mass removal.

[Lemnear]

Obviously Terminus is a million times better. The question is whether you need a removal spell that superlative to keep Miracles as a deck alive now that it's been tuned and when most of the format dies to other cheap mass removal.

We already know that 4 mana sorcery sweepers are unplayable with all the creature power creep and Wastelands. I dunno if there is any card which floats between Terminus and verdict to fill the gap the banning of terminus would leave

[Zombie]

We already know that 4 mana sorcery sweepers are unplayable with all the creature power creep and Wastelands. I dunno if there is any card which floats between Terminus and verdict to fill the gap the banning of terminus would leave

Maybe you can play a mixture. It's not like you have to play Verdict alone. There's a curve to sweeper efficiency too.

[nedleeds]

Miracles is the last real control deck left in the format. I would really not want to see it cut down. That said, I can not argue that Terminus is not exactly healthy.

<gasp> OH NOES ! You'd have to design a new deck! </gasp> Miracles exists solely because of Brainstorm. You'd have to actually you know, pay real mana for super wrath of god and decree of justice. Playing locally post Khans there have been some control decks that don't even use miracles anymore because Dig is so absurd. You can just find Verdict, EE, or spot removal like a champion.

[Lemnear]

Miracles exists solely because of Brainstorm..

Spare me, Sean. It is a deck grounded on SDT which enables Counterbalance & Terminus & Entreat. It's hard to ignore that fact.

[Dice_Box]

Miracles will live on without Brainstorm, it can not live without Top.

Also man, honestly, spare me the bullshit. I have said all I will about Brainstorm now. Leave me out of this crusade of yours and go piss on someone else's toes. My view on the card was well documented before I started playing with it, my views have not changed now I own them. Edge someone else into a fight, if you want to know what I think read the past pages of this thread. If you don't care what I think then don't pull these fucking games with me.

[nedleeds]

Have fun fanning out an opener with Terminus and Entreat and being unable to unmulligan! Miracles without Brainstorm is like playing with 6 Blightsteels. Spare me. Maybe Lat-Nam's Legacy can save the archtype.

[Dice_Box]

4 Jace, a decrees in maindeck Terminaus, perhaps a Personal Tutor or two and a move to builds like Thopter with Toolboxes in them and I would bet that while the deck would take a hit, it would keep on kickin. Not sure what else, people smarter than I would work it out.

Also who the fuck would fan a hand like that and not Mull? Even with Brainstorm as a in the deck, why the fuck would you keep that?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't get one thing about the "ban BS" fervor: do we really want less consistent game? Maybe we should return to 1995 rules on mulligan, etc.
I'd rather have similar effects in other colors so that it's not only blue that may play the game with ease instead of hoping to draw relevant cards in relevant times. Is consistency and ease of play something that bad?
Not that BS isn't overpowered, and maybe the format would be better of without it, but there's little appeal in topdeck wars, one-landers, all that stuff.

[Gheizen64]

I don't get one thing about the "ban BS" fervor: do we really want less consistent game? Maybe we should return to 1995 rules on mulligan, etc.
I'd rather have similar effects in other colors so that it's not only blue that may play the game with ease instead of hoping to draw relevant cards in relevant times. Is consistency and ease of play something that bad?
Not that BS isn't overpowered, and maybe the format would be better of without it, but there's little appeal in topdeck wars, one-landers, all that stuff.

Apparently Brainstorm is now the only tool of library manipulation not only in blue, but in all of magic.

Top give any deck much more consistency than any Brainstorm do, with a difference, it require more initial investment and don't cycle any bad card in your hand. Ponder and Preordain both give you access to the top 3 cards of your library to see and put 1 in your hand, with a difference: they don't automatically cycle bad cards in your hand. Most looting spells do pretty much what BS do, but usually at 3 mana (TFK, catalog etc...). Sylvan Library is essentially a Brainstorm every turn that cost 1G but 4 life for each card you want to cycle.
Why would anyone assume that brainstorm is the only possible card manipulation tool blue have and if it's gone suddendly we get modern and topdeck wars?
Also with TC existing now (and Jace not going anywhere), i really doubt blue decks would ever go to topdeck wars, with or without BS. That and we got Dig throught time too. Late-midgame blue card draw/manipulation is the strongest it has ever been.

[Lemnear]

Why would anyone assume that brainstorm is the only possible card manipulation tool blue have and if it's gone suddendly we get modern and topdeck wars?
Also with TC existing now (and Jace not going anywhere), i really doubt blue decks would ever go to topdeck wars, with or without BS. That and we got Dig throught time too. Late-midgame blue card draw/manipulation is the strongest it has ever been.

This isn't about blue not being able to keep boarderline playable hands, one-landers or the format folding to combo (as you can still Ponder for your FoW turn 1). The topic of consistancy and switching out cards is primary relevant for combo decks which have to Balance mana/combo parts/protection to stay viable.

[maharis]

We already know that 4 mana sorcery sweepers are unplayable with all the creature power creep and Wastelands. I dunno if there is any card which floats between Terminus and verdict to fill the gap the banning of terminus would leave

Toxic Deluge

Spare me, Sean. It is a deck grounded on SDT which enables Counterbalance & Terminus & Entreat. It's hard to ignore that fact.

Entreat, Terminus, Brainstorm, SDT, Counterbalance, Island, Flooded Strand

can replace its two worst cards with the two best from the next three, AND get a softlock AND get basics online AND find a counterspell.

Entreat, Terminus, Ponder, SDT, Counterbalance, Island, Flooded Strand

is forced to hold two cards that are dead until turn 6, and risks Thoughtseize, Decay, REB or Force ruining its day.

An SDT does nothing about a Miracle that makes it into your hand which is one of the worst things for a Miracles pilot (or any control deck: a card that cannot interact). That's why so many control decks historically have only run 1-2 "finishers." SDT is a powerful card in this shell because it controls drawing future miracles, but Countertop strategies have existed since the cards were printed and none have been as successful as Miracles. It is so because removing the downside from the powerful spells allows more of them to be run.

[maharis]

Also:

This isn't about blue not being able to keep boarderline playable hands, one-landers or the format folding to combo (as you can still Ponder for your FoW turn 1). The topic of consistancy and switching out cards is primary relevant for combo decks which have to Balance mana/combo parts/protection to stay viable.

Decks have come and gone throughout Magic's history, cards have been powerful then invalidated. I would be sad to see Storm go but it could be the case that the health of the format depends on this key card from the deck being banned because its effect is judged too uniquely powerful for the format overall. Surely some decks will be hit harder than others. It's like If MUD somehow got insanely powerful overnight and they decided Chalice of the Void was the problem card, the collateral damage to Loam would be worse. (This might be a bad example.)

When Deathrite Shaman was banned from Modern, I wasn't playing BGx, but I was playing the card, and my Dega deck was killed. Today BGx still exists while my Dega deck is completely off the radar. Too bad for me but Modern is probably a better place now.

[MGB]

I think Delver, Terminus, and Show and Tell are the 3 most constraining cards in the format honestly.

I think that super efficient and powerful "pillars" of the format gives the format character and identity.

If we banned the most powerful things in this format (Brainstorm, Delver, Stoneforge Mystic, Terminus, Show and Tell) it would just become another Modern - anything goes. Some people might think that "anything goes" is better for a format, but it loses its uniqueness. What would Vintage be without Workshops and Moxen? What would Legacy be without Brainstorm and Show and Tell?

Brainstorm, Terminus, Wasteland, and Delver are keeping many, many other strategies in check right now Do you want to play against green mana ramp + fat guys in random matches at a tournament? I prefer a format that is more constricted because it gives me a better idea of how to metagame for a tournament. I know i *won't* often see anything that just auto-loses to Delver, Wasteland, and Terminus. The last thing I would want Legacy to become is a Standard fatty-fest. Stuff like Terminus, Delver, and Wasteland prevent that from happening.

[HSCK]

I believe in pillars too, but I think that those three polarize the format too far and constrict deckbuilding a little too much. I'd rather keep some of the super powerful cards like DRS and Cruise and see what that format looks like. Diversity wise the last 11 months have looked good, but I don't know if it'll keep that up. While TC is really powerful, and people bay for blood with BS, that those three are the main perpetrators of restriction in the format.

[nedleeds]

4 Jace, a decrees in maindeck Terminaus, perhaps a Personal Tutor or two and a move to builds like Thopter with Toolboxes in them and I would bet that while the deck would take a hit, it would keep on kickin. Not sure what else, people smarter than I would work it out.

Also who the fuck would fan a hand like that and not Mull? Even with Brainstorm as a in the deck, why the fuck would you keep that?

You still don't get it. You would actually have to mulligan hands like that, with Brainstorm in an opener with Miracles its a keep. Two utterly useless cards turn into super wrath and another card.