Oh duh extra turn. Whoops. Yeah that sucks. Well maybe they'll go for S&T. Is that a bad MU for us? I might just have to pray I don't get paired about that guy.Originally Posted by bryanzoll
Having played the Cloudpost vs Nic Fit matchup from the Eldrazi side a bunch in various configurations over the past months, I can pretty much confirm that the matchup is close to a bye for the 12-post deck. Karakas is actively good for us (since we play the Eldrazi for the triggers anyway and barely care about the bodies, and bouncing a Venser is the opposite of value), we don't care about most permanent based hate due to Repeal, Ulamog and now even Chain of Vapor clearing the room and I don't think I've seen any Nic Fit list that can realistically win a game in which a Primeval Titan hits the board at any time where you don't have a planeswalker ultimate ready to win the game the next turn.
The games I've lost almost always were some variation of Liliana into quick Jace Ultimate/Aetherling beatdown or something quite like that, usually combined with a powerful cabal therapy double hit (either blind+flashback or a double card in my hand on the flashback). I think I have won every single game that did not involve a Liliana. We haven't tested the scapeshift build yet, I can see that having a better shot and a powerful late game that can actually match up, but all 12-post lists have a reasonable amount of countermagic for that in the board. A heavy creature list can also possibly put up enough pressure to do something with that, something that most Nic Fit lists are not that great at usually.
For your specific build I'd recommend trying to get something akin to Deathrite into Finks/Knight into Siege Rhino backed up by some discard and pray. Sideboarding probably depends on what you see game 1. If they are running top still, bring in needle for top/candelabra, if you see Treasure Cruises and Chain of Vapor then don't bother with pithing needle, it'll be a mild inconvenience at best and is not worth the card investment. Abrupt Decay is fine, Deed is fine to force them to commit mana into their artifacts the turn they play them, Deluge is useless, Veteran Explorer are a very strong candidate to be boarded out (Trust me, 12-post gains a lot more from searching two basics than your deck can). You are absolutely the beatdown in this matchup, and lacking access to countermagic makes the gameplan a lot easier to execute on the cloudpost side. If you have an aggressive board presence, bluffing abrupt decay can be worthwhile to stop candelabra into EoT Eye of Ugin untap Eldrazi by a turn or so if you don't have anything particularly strong to do instead.
My recommendation would be to just hope to avoid the matchup. You got to pick the fights worth fighting in your deck space in legacy, and cloudpost is just not a card you can easily beat without heavily warping the basics of what this deck is trying to accomplish.
Edit: Show and Tell is in the deck to be extra copies of Primeval Titan that bait countermagic, SnT for an Eldrazi is a desperation line in most situations and is only ever a real consideration in matchups that are too fast paced to enact the usual gameplan. There's barely anything Nic Fit can do that is scary enough to warrant a SnT for Eldrazi play, and even if you Karakas it then it's not the end of the world as we can and intend to actually cast these Monsters anyway.
Thanks Dave. Prayer is a familiar out to us non-blue players, haha.
Woot, Cliq! Here's ma list. I'm still debating the singleton GSZ, but it's the fifth vet early game and a Tusk later (or Scooze post SB.) I'm also not too sure about sideboard slots. How was x4 DRS maindeck for you?
22 land
4 Verdant
3 misty
1 delta
2 trop
2 usea
3 bay
1 tower
2 forest
3 island
1 swamp
4x Explorer
4x Brainstorm
4x Force of will
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Pernicious Deed
3x Abrupt Decay
2x Dig Through Time
3x strix
2x Ponder
2x Jace
1x Garruk Big
2x Thragtusk
1x Grave Titan
1x glen elendra Archmage
1x Consecrated sphinx
1x GSZ/glen/clique
2x Vendillion clique (maybe 1 more thief or sower)
x 1 Notion Thief
x2 Flusterstorm
3x Thoughtseize
2x Surgical Extraction
1x E plague
1x toxic deluge
1x scavenging ooze
1x sower of temptation
1x Sagu Mauler
Rest in peace, Grandpa Morphling.
Nemeses Slain:4
Alright, so I entered a 32-person GPT with the BUG list I've been testing lately. This was the first time I've played the deck in person, and I was missing two out of the three Jace's as well as some sideboard cards. I subbed in an extra abrupt decay and a deed in the main and some stuff I had lying around for the side. I think missing the Jace's only hurt me in a couple matchups, but it felt like it mattered a lot for those.
Round 1 Game 1: Death and Taxes. I won the die roll, played forest and an Explorer and passed. He played a plains and passed. I therapied for a SFM and I think I hit one, then flashed back to take something else. I soaked up damage for two turns while he dumped his hand, and then I deeded it away and followed it up with a Jace and fatesealed him out of the game very quickly.
Game 2 was somewhat similar, except he turn 2 played a revoker naming deed. I think I played a deathrite and he cast stoneforge mystics for the next few turns. I therapied a lot of equipment out of his hand, and then end of turn Abrupt Decayed the Revoker, untapped, and deeded his board away again with 5 or 6 cards in hand to his zero.
1-0 2-0
Round 2: Esper blade. I don't remember details except that I blind-hit some stuff with Therapy and was really feeling the missing Jaces. He won two super grindy games, both of which felt close, and he went on to go 5-0 in the swiss.
1-1 2-2
Round 3: Reanimator. This is pretty favored for me since practically every card in my deck is good against him. Game 1 I got out DRS turn 1 and he got out a turn 2 Grislebrand on the play with Reanimate, bringing himself to 11. I played a Strix to wall him, and he drew a bunch of cards then traded. At this point I had an active DRS, but he had multiple creatures in the yard and cast Exhume to bring back a Tidespout Tyrant. I played out two more Strixes which is not something he wanted to bounce. I used DRS to kill him, getting out a Glen Elendra to sit behind.
Game 2 he got out Tidespout Tyrant turn 2 on the play and I didn't have an immediate answer. He started bouncing my lands so I scooped.
Game 3 I locked him out from reanimating very quickly with DRS. A few turns in, he passed the turn with four cards in hand. I blind therapied for Show and Tell and hit both of them. I quickly got him under a Jace + Glen Elendra lock.
2-1 4-3
Round 4: Omnitell. I didn't know what he was playing and I kept a fairly weak 7 on the draw. He cheated in Omniscience turn 3 but didn't have a follow-up. I couldn't find an answer, and a few turns later he started chaining cantrips for free and found his win condition. I boarded in Envelop, Venser, and Thoughtseize.
Game 2 I had a really great opening hand with Envelop, DRS and Venser. I enveloped his first show and tell, put in Venser to bounce Omniscience off his second, and had him on a fast clock with DRS + Venser beats. He hit all his land drops and hard-cast Dream Halls with only one card in hand. I found a Glen Elendra the next turn and was able to lock him out.
Game 3 was similar to game 2 but I drew multiple Force of Wills as the game progressed, so he didn't have much of a chance.
3-1 6-4
Round 4: I have no idea what this was, some deck with goblins and trinispheres and chalices, but he was 3-1 so I assume he was doing well with it. Game 1 I lost the die roll but kept a great hand with Explorer + Therapy and some action. He played a mountain and passed, so I blind-therapied naming Bolt and saw chalice, magus of the moon, blood moon, spirit guide, trinisphere, and some goblins. He chaliced for one on his turn 2 and followed it up with a blood moon, and I hadn't been able to find a land that fetched for my singleton forest in time. I scooped a few turns later.
Games 2 and 3 I was able to therapy, abrupt decay and deed away his lock pieces one-by-one and eventually get him into a Jace + Sphinx lock.
4-1 8-5
At this point they cut to the top 8, with me in third. My first opponent was playing Burn.
Game 1 he played an Arid Mesa and passed. I played a land, and he cast an eidolon turn 2. I abrupt decayed it when he went to attack, and he threw some spells at my face. I cast a DRS turn 3 followed by a Jace turn 4 and started fatesealing him, forcing him to keep a lot of lands, and then ulted Jace very quickly for the win.
Game 2 I played an Explorer turn 1 which he used Searing Blood on, which was a huge mistake I think. I untapped and cast Glen Elendra with the mana and won the game with like 14 life.
By this point I was exhausted as it was around 1:30 AM. My opponent was playing Miracles. The first game I used DRS to ramp into Glen Elendra, which I did not expect to Resolve. It did, so I followed it up with Jace followed by Sphinx and quickly ended the game. I boarded in a Grave Titan and two Thragtusks and removed the explorers, and replaced the Therapies with Thoughtseize.
Games 2 and 3 he got his own Jaces out and grinded me out in two very long games; the match was easily an hour. This was the matchup where only running one Jace really hurt; I simply did not have enough threats. I also would have been helped a lot by a better sideboard here. The games definitely felt winnable.
Anyways, the deck felt great and really fun to play. I'm excited to keep working on it. The main deck felt correct, but I think there is definitely room to fix some problematic matchups in the sideboard.
I think it's one of the best cards in B/G so you'd have to have a really good reason not to run it. Additionally, we're a ramp deck, and DRS is one of the best ramp creatures in the game. He also fixes your mana, doubles as a threat, and dramatically improves your Dredge, Burn, aggro delver, TinFins, and Reanimator matchups. The downside is that he forces you to make concessions elsewhere, since DRS + deed + decay + explorer + therapy is about all the non-blue cards the deck can hold.
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Eternal Witness
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Siege Rhino
1 Academy Rector
1 Thragtusk
1 Shriekmaw
1 Restoration Angel
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Birthing Pod
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Plains
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
SB: 1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
SB: 1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Orzhov Pontiff
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Tidehollow Sculler
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Choke
So I got to Pod Finks into Siege Rhino last night on Cockatrice against UR Delver. Felt good, gents. Felt real good.
-Matt
Matt I must say I'm shocked to see you enjoying a 75 without teeg. I understand how hes a nobo with pod and zenith but the card may as well have your face as the art :)
This felt bad. Real bad.
Cowboy Magic
The problem I have with playing a deck like this (that might or might not be effective against UR Delver) is that I feel defenceless against combo. Pretty much the only thing you have is the playset of Cabal Therapy. Playing against this seems like a bye for Storm or Show & Tell.
Oh, I totally agree. I didn't build this to beat up on combo. When I played Nic Fit more regularly a few years ago, I knew the matchup was never going to be stellar, and I think now with all the Delver in the format, combo is going to have a hard time competing.
-Matt
Before the archetypical Delver-decks (RUG & Patriot) usually played Spell Pierce. It appears most lists have shaved the spell pierces to include Treasure Cruise. If so, that might make it a little easier for combo, at least the combo decks that are fast.
Pierce or no pierce, they still have Daze, FoW and a ridiculous amount of card draw and selection. Coupled with a fast clock these decks prey on combo.
On a side note, I managed to live a little dream the other night vs Miracles. I -3'd Garruk, Primal Hunter to draw nine cards off a Kraken from a Kiora emblemI won that game.
Any thoughts on how the new priest from commander 2014 is going to affect GSZ decks?
Containment Priest
1W
Flash
If a nontoken creature would enter the battlefield and it wasn't cast, exile it instead.
2/2
Elves yes...us no. In fact we may want to run it in white builds....it hates on basically eveevery one of our worst matchups.
Goodbye POD, GSZ, Natural Order, Sneak, S&T, fetch -> dryad and I guess it also affects "blink" shenanigans.
Well.
Ouch... THAT is what "containment" means... Jeezz
The card seems very strong. The only deck I can see it fitting naturally into is DnT and a SB card for Esper blade and the ilk, but I'm sure some will adapt. It hoses so many decks.
It is being considered. Teeg is already nonbo in the deck. I see dnt main decking this possibly.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
It's a little jarring, but it's not the end of the world. We maindeck a lot of cards that kill it like Deed and Deluge and Decay (unless they have Mom out). It's not really worse for us than Grafdigger's Cage which was already in the format.
I haven't played the S&T matchup, is it bad enough that this is worth siding in? Unlike Teeg, we'd have to run at least 3 sideboard because it's not GSZable itself. Granted, Teeg does nothing vs. S&T. I've been testing Knight, it's OK, but not as helpful as I thought.
She makes a very convincing swap 1-for-1 with the Pernicious Deeds vs combo. It is a little more awkward vs Elves, but Deed@1 is usually good enough there anyway and we have a bunch of other (different) dead cards to take out anyway.
The Show and Tell matchup is favorable for red versions and blue versions, but trends towards unfavorable for white versions. Elves is unfavorable for all versions, and dredge/reanimator are really dependent on the specifics of your list, although blue tends to trend better than the other two splashes there. It's definitely quite playable for white Nic Fits -- we've always had a tendency of "salt the earth" strategies, going back as far as running Humility in Rector. Yeah, we might be hurt by it too, and not have as much fun as we otherwise would have -- but it hurts you a hell of a lot more.
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