Interesting idea to integrate Burning Wish to a non Scapeshift shell. Maybe PFire with a BWish toolbox?Originally Posted by Surfkatt
Anyway, all this talk about Scapeshift makes me wanna build it. Just wondering if investing in 3 taiga and 3 badlands is worth it. Between all the current discussion what would be a solid list to start with?
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
I'm not a huge expert on Nic Fit, but it seems like a decent place to be for NJ.
I was looking at Pod builds, but I think consistency in BWG might be better. I was thinking about Rhino Control:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Siege Rhino
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Sylvan Library
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Recurring Nightmare
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
Basically, Pod is much better in blue (stupid Strix...) and people had suggested running the SFM package since it's pretty good anyway. 4 Rhino seems pretty good in a meta of Burn and such small creatures if we can make it to Turn 3/4 (or earlier assuming the perfects). Thrun and Sigarda are there against Miracles, and Recurring Nightmare is cute value that we'll likely have enough mana to pull off.
Sideboard has a bit more against Miracles, against the really fast aggro decks, and some random value. Having played random midrange for a long time, Nic Fit can go way longer into the midgame to lategame, so I don't think we worry too much about those matchups. Plus, I just want to play me some Baneslayer Angel.
Thoughts?
-Matt
I'm running a Junk deck tonight at my LGS with a 4/1 split of DRS/Explorer along with 4 GSZ, I'll let you know how it goes. It should hopefully lead to less bad topdecks of explorers late game.
Ran a w/b/g list last night in an online daily with over 50 players. Thought I'd share something wierd I tried in my sideboard. I ran 3 Hidden Gibbons and it was insane when I dropped it on turn 1 followed by turn 2 shenanigans that the deck can go into. Opponents clearly had never seen the card before and it won me games against bug, reanimator and burn. Not sure if it could be a thing for green decks, but 1 for a 4/4 seems good.
I ran 2 Stoneforge with Jitte, SoLaS and SoWaP as well and it felt very good. The life gain was awesome with a maindeck Thragtusk and Baneslayer. Did well losing the last round to Ad Nauseum even through my hymns and Therapies.....stupid past in flames!!!
Today I am become death. The destroyer of worlds. -Oppenheimer
The basic shell is:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Wood Elf
1-3 Huntmaster of the Fells
0-2 Thragtusk
1-3 other GSZ targets
1 Primeval Titan
4 Cabal Therapy
3-4 Green Sun's Zenith (Although less than 4 seems wrong to me)
4 Burning Wish
2-3 Scapeshift
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Flex slot
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Taiga
2 Stomping Grounds
3 Badlands
2-3 Bayou
3-4 Verdant Catacombs
0-1 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
1-2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
SB:
2 Pyroblast
3 Slaughter Games
2 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Massacre
1 Scapeshift
1 Innocent Blood
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Pyroclasm
2 Whatever you want
This is where I would start and customize to taste. As you can see there are quite a few cards set in stone with only a few flex slots.
Fair enough. It is true that I rarely GSZ for KoTR. It's a great natural draw.
One thing I want to note is that I don't really use DRS for ramp in matchups where VetEx is good. I have 4 and 4 because I had 4 and 3 and 1 Scooze and I just felt that the extra DRS was better than the 1 Scooze. I like having the 4 DRS in case I have to side out VetEx against certain decks, and even if I'm not using it for ramp, the reach/hate/lifegain is insanely good. I don't think I want to go below 3 Vets because that takes away a lot of the explosiveness, but I will probably trim from there.
The testing against the basic-heavy, controlly Stoneblade decks has been dismal preboard — they always take our basics and go TNN into Jace into hardcast Batterskull — but I guess after board we have Thoughtseize, extra sweepers/removal, and Teeg for Jace and Dig.
Are you not running Deeds because of SoFI and Jitte? Leaning on 3 Decay for your only removal seems dangerous. I guess SFM eats their removal and then you just go bigger than that with lifegain creatures that balance out anything that's already happened, but sweepers are so good at the moment because Elves and UR delver encourage overextending.
Better burn matchup I can give you; better UR Delver, I disagree. As I've said, I'm just really tired of taking 18 from a t1 delver before I can find a way to kill it. The passive lifegain from the creature can help find you more time, but I guess on some level this is the debate. You can either:
A: Take 12-18 from a Delver and then slam a Thragtusk and gain 5
or
B: Bolt the stupid insect and gain 12-18.
Admittedly the Bolt doesn't also swing for 5 every turn or leave behind a 3/3 after it's used, but you last so much longer by killing the delver than by playing a lifegain creature.
As I said, this will probably bite me in the ass if/when I have to play vs burn...but you roll the dice and take your chances. We have yet to come to an "ultimate fit" -- I'm not sure if it even exists yet, honestly. Right now, each version has pros and cons.
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Sylvan Library
1 Recurring Nightmare
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Baneslayer Angel
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
You'll forgive me for sorting it a bit so it's easier for me to read.
Let's see...
1 Dryad Arbor: If you're not on Pernicious Deed, I guess this card is sort of reasonable? Here's a pair of questions for you to answer, though:
How often do you see yourself Z@0 when you can hold it for a Z@1 and get either VetX or DRS (depending on matchup, mostly)?
How often do you see yourself fetching for Arbor (to turn on Nightmare or equips)
If the answer to either of these questions is <5, cut the Arbor.
1 Courser: the card is reasonable, but I'd test it if at all possible and see what you think of it in action. In my experience it was solid, but I never really wanted to Zenith for it, which led me to conclude that you either wanted 2-3 copies or 0.
4 Rhinos: pretty deep. The card is in fact the nuts, but I'm not sure that you want the full 4 as his mana cost is a bit awkward to clog up your hand with. Maybe if we go back to the ollllllllllllllllld days of Lotus Cobra =/
Thrun gets my seal of approval here since you have equips to make him nasty. I wouldn't hate to see an Elspeth or two in this list -- giving a Rhino a Red Bull is a 10-point swing between trigger + attack, which is not insignificant and actually threatens a 2-turn clock if you have another Rhino // 3 points of incidental damage from VetX beats, FoWs, fetches, etc.
2 Top / 2 Library: I know you're permanently high on Library from junk, but I'm not sure that the 2nd Library is really where you want to be here. Maybe an Abzan Charm for a flex removal / card draw option? Thrun and Sigarda are both good to put counters on, too.
Jitte's actually kind of adorable to suit up a VetX with, because they want to block it but at the same time they really don't. SoFI and Skull are obviously insane, but part me of wonders if you might want Light and Shadow over Jitte. SoLaS's trigger is pretty nasty in this deck, and throwing it on a Rhino all but guarantees a trigger due to Rhino's buff bod + trample. Not like a Rhino with a SoLaS on it is ever going to die to anything short of Terminus, either.
Nightmare is probably fine here just off the strength of Rhino alone. It'd still be nice to see another EtB trigger or two to abuse with it. No Eternal Witness?
3 Decays for removal seems low. I'd like to see 2 more maindeck removal spells. Maybe 2 StP, or a pair of Abzan Charms if you want more card draw potential for vs Miracles.
As for sideboard --
I'm not sure that you need two more copies of yourself. I think that might be better off as a different hatebear of some kind. I've been running a 2/2 split of Canonist + Mindcensors in my sideboard for white versions for some time now, and they've been quite effective. You already have 5 Teegs maindeck.
Deluge is fine as a 2-of. Any more copies, though, and I would suggest splitting up with some number of Golgari Charms for extra utility.
Choke is a holdover from junk, I think. The card is not as good here as it is there...for a couple of reasons:
-) Nic Fit's clock is not swift. Odds are that after landing a Choke, your opponent will have plenty of time to get more lands to answer it and then have a grip full of gas to unload on you.
-) Decks that you want it vs. aren't -actually- that hurt by it. Stone/Deathblade and Miracles can both fight through it fairly easily.
-) Decks that you board Choke in vs will already be boarding in hate for your stoneforge package, so they'll be pre-prepared for it.
-) Decks that Choke is good vs are already kind of aware/ready for Choke thanks to Lejay's Choke Stompy thing that he's been screwing around with.
Of these, I think that #1 is easily the biggest reason not to play it. If you want to attack blue decks' manabases, go Tsunami. I recognize that this is kind of a nonbo with Teeg in the deck, but Tsunami's effect is orders of magnitude better at the cost of 1 more mana -- which Nic Fit can easily attain compared to junk.
Consider High Tide. Which would you rather do: Choke them, or Tsunami them?
3 Seize, industry standard, yada yada...
Ooze....for extra graveyard hate? Why not a Nihil Spellbomb or two at that point? I'm not sure what the Ooze comes in vs....my gut says "basically everything," at which point I would say the Ooze should be maindeck and Nihils x2 should be sideboard.
Baneslayer <3 -- I would like to see a 2nd copy of her because she's how you win air superiority battles. I learned this lesson when preparing vs Shardless for the last SCG Invitational -- Baleful Strix is a pain in the ass. Baneslayer gives no fucks, because First Strike is an ability. She's also obviously insane vs delver and burn -- and a reasoanble board in vs stoneblade and miracles just for increased bomb density.
Carpets ... I mean, Carpet is a pretty insane card. I like Carpet more with 2 Baneslayers, but...space. I think honestly the # of carpets comes down to whether you keep Dryad Arbor or not. If you do, then I think 2 Carpets is fine. If you cut Arbor, you probably do want the 3 Carpets.
I'd suggest something like the following:
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Tsunami
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baneslayer Angel
3 Carpet of Flowers
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Aven Mindcensor
If you keep Arbor, -1 Carpet for +1 ???
I'm going to be particularly active in this thread until Thursday evening, when I leave for the venue. If you have any thoughts/questions/etc feel free to ask. I'll be onsite basically when it opens on Friday, so there'd be plenty of time to track me down in person as well.
You need to be very cautious about setting off your Veterans vs Stoneblade. You can still do it -- it's not Miracles where it's like, 100% wrong unless you're scapeshifting them or something...but you need to be careful and wary of what's in their hand. They can and will happily let the game go to the point where they can Snapcaster a Force of Will (I guess Snap-Dig is a thing now, too).
Basically if you're setting off a Veteran vs Stoneblade, you need to be using it immediately to generate a large board state. Frankly, the best use for Vet vs Stoneblade is frequently to just jam it on t1 / t2 -- most of the times, the Stoneblade player for, will some reason, Swords it. I've never figured out why they do this, but almost all of them will. G: you gain 1, target player discards Swords to Plowshares, exile this card is a perfectly reasonable thing!
You do, however, immediately board out 3 copies of VetX and the matchup does immediately improve. I always leave one copy in for emergencies -- sometimes you get screwed and you just NEED the lands, and damn the torpedoes of what they'll do to you.
I don't see how I take so much damage from a delver. I run 2 decays main to kill it, Burning wish kills it, deed kills it, they have to kill huntmaster or it kills it. Postboard I get Pyroblast and now pyroclasms which both kill it. We also have top to find all these options. Sometimes you don't draw the answers or they daze daze force off a turn 1 blind flip delver but that is fine. Bad Beats. Just like sometimes you therapy their brainstorms and their delver never flips in time as you start slamming huntmasters and tusks. The problem with bolt is in matchups like miracles where it literally does nothing. If anything I might go up a decay.
See, that's what I thought for a long time, too, and then somewhere along the way I realized that this is happening to me every tournament. At some point it stops being bad beats and forces you to examine and find the real problem.
Maybe I'm overreacting. But goddamnit, I don't want to get punched for more than 6 by any single Delver this entire weekend.
Necroplasm or Skylasher time?
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
I don't think that there's room in Scape for either of those, but yeah, that's about where my mindset is.
I dont think the answer is more removal, but rather having a viable blocker to stall the delver with until we can remove it. As such, I believe Baneslayer is our bomb against Delver in Junk.
Both of those are adorable. Now I wanna run skylasher...
I don't wanna be a jerk but I think you are overreacting a bit. If you want to never ever lose to a delver play punishing fit. Or play 4 decay and 4 sudden shock between main and board. Other than that at least once a tournament you will be killed by turn one delver flip off daze with force and daze in hand, the deck has some unbeatable nut draws and you cannot mulligan good hands because you cant answer a t1 delver before it hurts you. I don't really see it as a problem, just as variance.
I thought you guys might like to read the article Jacob Wilson posted this morning. It is actually all about beating delver strategies.
I think the most important take away for me from that article is this: If you want to beat Delver, play 1 mana removal spells, whether they be StP, Lightning Bolt, what have you. It may not seem that bad to burn an Abrupt Decay on a Delver, but you are behind 1 mana in the tempo race. Even in a deck like Nic Fit that "should" have an abundance of mana, we all know that only happens when things go according to our way, and the tempo difference has more of an impact than we really think.
I think that Junk lists need to be playing StP because early interactivity is extremely important, especially in legacy. There is no reason our battlecruiser deck should be losing to patrol boats. I have actually found Path to Exile to have almost no drawback (except in the case of Death and Taxes where ramping them actually does negatively impact you a bit). Against UR they will run out of basic between Vet Ex activations and Path to Exile.
I know it is a different deck, but Thomas Herzog has been stressing the importance of Path to Exile in his Maverick sideboard because of how important answering a turn 1 delver is. I think it is small decisions like that which can lead to the difference between a top 8 and a top 32, or a top 64 or none at all.
Just to throw in what I am currently testing:
Arianrhod's Thune Fit, but with these changes:
-1 Selvala, Explorer Returned
+1 Courser of Kruphix
These guys largely do the same thing, but Courser is insane with top/library. Also Courser only gives you card advantage.
-2 Council's Judgment
-2 Abzan Charm
+4 Swords to Plowshares
This is a concession to the fast decks abound, and makes sideboarding easier (for me at least).
Sideboard is:
2 Path to Exile
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Choke
2 Carpet of Flowers
I disagree with playing STP just to hit Delver on t1. Delver doesn't do anything besides attack. It's never going to kill you in less than 6 turns without help. Abrupt Decay is uncounterable and waiting a turn with STP to play around Daze does the same thing as just Decaying it. Decay also hits lots of other things that are super annoying like Jitte and Counterbalance. I don't worry about a Delver unless I have nothing else to do that turn.
It is frustrating to lose to t1 Delver but I find it very rare with this deck. Even BUG with its stifles and DRS eating my Knight food hasn't been that difficult. What you really lose to against UR is the burn and Pyromancer/Swiftspear spam. The only way to combat that is to gain life early and often and deploy blockers and sweepers. I always would prioritize that over killing Delver.
BUG lacks that reach other than Deathrite and we can combat that with our own. BUG switching out Hymn for Treasure Cruise is actually good for us because it severely limits the damage they can do with Deathrite.
How to do we feel about playing a disfigure as addition removal?
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
@Ralf, I answered all your great questions back on the bottom of page 19.
Damn this thread moves quickly :)
You get used to that =)
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I tested for a couple of sets against UR Delver tonight with my neo-Scapewish list. Felt heavily favored although some games (especially game 1s) were very close. Swiftspear is orders of magnitude more dangerous than Delver is through about turn 5, then it flips. More details / thoughts tomorrow.
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