i understand that. however, he was saying that even the ponder lists run a 1 of karakas, which is not the case.Originally Posted by exallium
Perhaps I wasn't being clear. I meant Miracles build that runs at least 1 Ponder, not necessarily 4, like this one: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76021
or this one: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/101945
or this one: http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/96353
You are probably referring to a tight European group composed of Ein, Vlcek, and Cadei.
Karakas was omitted on purpose. There are many reasons why I chose not to run this card. If you are relying on a 1 of Karakas to beat Sneak and Show, then you need to figure out a different way to beat it. Since my deck is not reliant on Legendary Creatures, the value from Karakas is so minimal that it isn't worthy of a land slot. Basic mountain was also omitted for the 3rd Volcanic Island, because opening hands with basic Mountain are almost always a mulligan hand. And even if my opponent is playing Wasteland, it is unlikely they can burn me out of all of my Volcanic Islands in one game. Also the argument made against snapcaster getting blasted on the stack is the exact same argument for Vendilion Clique being blasted on the stack. So the argument against Snapcaster Mage becomes irrelevant. It is very difficult for a Delver of Secrets to survive vs. 4 Terminus, 4 Swords to Plowshares, and 2 Red Blasts MD with more hate coming in from the sideboard.
If I were to cut Snapcaster Mage from the list, it wouldn't be for Karakas and Vendilion Clique, it would be for Stoneforge Mystic, Batterskull, and Dig Through Time. Something I may try in the future but as long as I am still having success with Snapcaster Mage, I am going to keep playing him, because with all the 1 mana spells, Snapcaster Mage rounds out the deck in the best way in my opinion.
ahh yes. because of the way you phrased it saying something like "even the ponder build" i assumed you were referring to the euro 4 ponder list. my apologies for the confusion.
I really think Karakas' inclusion depends on metagame-expectation, ie if you expect a large amount of SnT, Karakas goes up in value, alot.
Personally, very few people (if any, at all) plays Griselrakul, which means I have little use of Karakas. (The reason to actually play legends miracles is because of it's very strong SnT MU.)
I much rather have Ponders instead of Karakas (as the first 21 lands are pretty set with 4 island, 2 plains, 10 fetches etc), which means it's gas you end up cutting for Karakas, I've found.
I really wonder from where people got the notion that Karakas is anything else besides a little better Plains, that does nothing really awesome. I mean if they are stupid and S&T an Emrakul against Miracles, where we already have a lot of answers besides Karakas like Terminus, Jace, Judgement..., then it's obviously good. But what if they have a brain and go for Sneak Attack-> Emrakul or Show&Tell into Griselbrand? Do you think Yawgmoths Bargain would be balanced if it was erratad into a legendary 0/1 creature?
A little anecdote (it refers to Dredge, but i hope you get the point) of what Karakas does against a Sneakshow player with a brain:
Dread Return brings back Griselbrand
You have a Flying Yawgs Bargain. You pay life and activate.
He karakas your bargain.
Griselbrand goes to hand.
You dont care because you now draw 7.
Your opponent probably dies.
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Does Miracles have a good matchup against UR Delver?
Why exaggerate so much? You know Karakas is a great card against their deck, and pointing out that this utility land doesn't auto-win the matchup isn't very thought provoking. I've beaten Reanimator decks with just a Karakas and crap in hand for the first half the game. God forbid you're playing against basically any combo deck and you get Clique + Karakas out. Even if you've never done these things, don't tell me you haven't at least seen someone do it on camera or on a stream.
no, Glen Jones version has MD Blasts, difficult to combat TC.
Are you playing Dig Through Time? Just curious, the coverage of the event seemed to imply that DTT was a big player in Miracles at this point but none of the pre-event competitions suggested this was going to be the case.
Played a list simular to the 4-ponder list today, but with -1 jace, -1 counterbalance, +2 dig through time.
Dig through time was insane in the mirror/semi mirror, as you just win if it resolves. I found it too slow in the TC matches, as you are trying to catch up, and then close out the game, which both jace, cb and EtA does way better. It obviously flips vs. treasure cruise, which at least makes it not dead.
At the end of Day 2 i think we'll see Dig Throug Time Miracles > Ponder Miracles> Legendary/ RIP Miracles.
Did anyone playing RIP/ Legendary Miracles made Day 2?
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Had the opportunity to play Ein's new list at the GP. His list is absolutely ridiculous for this event. I've tested DTT in this deck and it just feels like the new 4 ponder list is just way more powerful.
The SCG coverage just made such a big deal of mentioning DTT in Miracles lists. I'm assuming that's because DTT is rare and they're selling as usual.
Did you test DTT?
It's pretty insane, and basically locks up games singlehanded.
Anybody a link for streaming?
Thanks!
Also: Go go UWx Control freaks! :-D
I know it's very good. I was just wondering if the prominent mention of it in the WotC and SCG coverage of Miracles was reality or just another selling point.
The local Miracles lists in my meta weren't making use of it in the run up to the event. I was kind of surprised at that since no list can do more with 2 out of the top 7 than Miracles in my opinion.
I've really liked at least 1 over the 3rd jace, tbh.
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