This is the problem I've come to in brewing as well.Originally Posted by Cliq
There's a nascent triangle forming between the following three ur-archetypes:
Ux control (miracles, keeper)
Combo (most types, esp. storm though)
Ux tempo (UR delver & other various delvers)
combo -> tempo -> control -> combo
The issue arises when you realize that alongside Force of Will, you also need to not lose to REB/Pyroblast, which some decks are running up to SIX copies of between maindeck and sideboard. This invalidates most BUG fit weapons -- it makes Notion Thief actively awful, as well as harder-to-answer problems like Future Sight -and- the best 6-drop in Nic Fit: Consecrated Sphinx. Basically everything that BUG Fit is trying to do falls square in the firing zone for each of the 3 main ur-archetypes that exist right now.
I give up for now. I'll keep my head poked in through the door as I always do, but I'm not touching this archetype until January at the earliest.
IMHO, this sounds like too cute my friend.
1) Consecrated is nice but it lacks a good ETB trigger & only brings 4 power to the table. I have compared (in games) him to Frost titan:
- when you are ahead, both does the same job
- when you are behind (more common case with a control deck), drawing 2 more cards/a turn is just unreliable enough. Sometimes you desperately need an answer to a BSK, a grisel, an emrakul, or you just need to block; especially at this very stage of the game.
2) Clique improves your clock but 2 blue sources by T3 is too much to ask in G1. Clearly SB material when you know you are playing against combo/control and you don't have to fear wastelands.
3) Thrun is Thrun. A good wall but that's it. I feel like this slot needs to be a gaining "bunch of life" dude. Thragtusk is therefore more appealing even more when RED decks are everywhere.
4) Venser is also cute because it can only be reused with karakas. In magic christmas land, it is always easy to assemble a 1-of 2 pieces combo !
Glen Elendra, with all the blue decks in the meta, is more appealing because it is like having Last word in your deck.
At last, play Jace.
I did not speak about him in my previous post but obviously he has some "cute" synergy with at least two of the chosen creatures:
- bouncing Glen Elendra is like having infinite permission against non creature spell
- bouncing Thragtusk is as dirty as it gets
Well, this is only my personal suggestions based on my own testing.
Feel free to comment.
EDIT: Nevertheless, you are definitely right about BSK. Have to make room for it.
Pyroblast is annoying but most of our good cards against Delver are not blue, and I've never seen Storm run it, basically leaving Miracles which right now feels pretty even. I have tested against UWR delver but not the new delver-less breeed, so I'm not sure I can speak to that one.
Average is 3-4 Pyro/REB, I would say.
This is not something you cannot overcome. Play surgical effects, BEB, discard etc...
I won twice against TC Patriot delver (2-1 and 2-0) packing a good number of Pyro/REB.
I won't say it is easy but with discard spells and tight plays, definitely doable.
Cabal therapy is at its highest, right now, because redundancy is even more a thing. Hitting 2 cards one shot is backbreaking. Something delver decks cannot recover from easily. TC is also ritual speed making spot discard even more powerful.
Edit: I would also add that playing against REB effect is a price to pay for playing blue. Lucky us, we also get to play black. And I'm definitely certain that tuning a perfect sideboard strategy without much commitments (meaning some sort of SB which could be detrimental against other decks) into it, is doable.
Edit 2: You can also play another beater of choice. Grave Titan does not fear REB/pyro effects. He also is a 2 turns clock. Not as good as (still better than Sphinx, imo) Frost against BSK & Monsters &Cie but at least, if he dies, leaves a couple of 2/2 so better than Frost in this case.
Last edited by Ralf; 11-18-2014 at 12:15 PM.
This is where I am currently at with ScapeWish. Please note that I still believe and play ScapeWish to be a mid-range deck that can win out of no-where with the combo:
4 veteran explorer
2 sakura-tribe elder
2 wood elves
2 dualcaster mage
1 obstinate baloth
1 thrun, the last troll
1 huntmaster of the fells
1 thragtusk
1 primeval titan
4 burning wish
3 cabal therapy
3 GSZ
2 thoughtseize
2 scapeshift
3 abrupt decay
3 pernicious deed
1 sylvan library
2 senseis divining top
4 taiga
3 badlands
2 bayou
2 stomping ground
3 forest
2 mountain
2 swamp
1 kessig wolf run
2 verdant catacombs
2 valakut
Sb:
3 slaughter games
2 carpet of flowers
3 pyroblast
1 maelstrom pulse
1 massacre
1 pyroclasm
1 ruination
1 scapeshift
1 thoughtseize
1 toxic deluge
Notes: I am at a 1|1 splits of huntmasters and baloths because I don't think I am ready to give up all huntmasters. However it is hard to ignore the fact that baloth is just so good right now.
Edit: Just wanted to share with everyone...copying opponents treasure cruise with DCM and then countering their TC with a pyroblast you just drew is the best feeling ever.
Here is my list from the GP (13-8, counting all side events at the GP)
Dudes (17)
3 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eternal Witness
2 Siege Rhino
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Baneslayer Angel
Non-Dudes (22)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Jitte
3 Deeds
3 Tops
1 Batterskull
Land (22)
3 Catacomb
3 Heath
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Sideboard
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sword and Feast and Famine
1 Ashen Rider
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Surgical
1 Extirpate
1 Golgari Charm
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Chains of M.
Last edited by jbone2016; 11-27-2014 at 10:05 PM.
Current Build: Punishing Rhinos http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post927726
Report's up kiddos:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...553#post849553
And the list for those who don't care about such things:
// Deck: Punishing Nic Fit (60)
// Lands
2 Badlands
2 Bayou
1 Bloodstained Mire
3 Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Mountain
3 Swamp
1 Taiga
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
1 Eternal Witness
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Veteran Explorer
// Spells
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Golgari Charm
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
4 Sensei's Divining Top
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Massacre
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
Yeah ! Protect the Troll 😇 .
Great job and nice report.
Seems like Titan was hidding himself? Or you killed your opponents so fast ?
Oh no, he made several appearances. Either my opponents couldn't answer him and he ended the game very quickly or my opponents did find an answer and I won anyway due to the value he provides.
Congratulations again HoneyT. If I may ask you some questions, there are some things I'd like your insight on, and I would be very grateful to hear it.
1st: Were you satisfied with the 3/3 PF/AD split? Did you think that any time a 4th decay was necessary and/or the fires were clunky in the face of the speed of delver decks?
2nd: it seemed that Liliana is still performing very well despite the ascendancy of young pyro. Would you touch the number of main board Lillys?
3rd: Have you considered the deathrite-veteran split the abzan and sultai versions are doing for the punishing version?
PS: I would also ask that, if you were to play the last split, would you still run the phy tower, but you already cut that down, so no point here.
Edit: misspelling x2
Don't take this the wrong way but those BUG lists are garbage. GSZ is, has always been, and will continue to be the glue that holds this deck together. It is the green Brainstorm because casting one is equivalent to casting a cantrip into the exact green creature you want. Playing 4 Explorers is clunky and wasteful if your only sac outlets are 4 Therapies. Playing Nic Fit without a GSZ package is like playing a bad modern deck. The prospect of playing Brainstorm and GSZ in the same deck is what BUG Fit has to offer.
I tested a BUG list similar to the one I posted and the deck is quite smooth. Gitaxian Probe and Cabal Therapy are great together. Treasure Cruise is actually great at keeping the deck going. We have the luxury to sink more mana than required to cast TC.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
You also are only playing 4 therapies as sac outlets (in the list you posted).
Your blue count is 18 and you want to play 4 FOW ?
Gitaxian is nice, but sometimes I wish it were a ponder because:
- losing life in a control deck does matter and opening a hand with 2 or more probe is painful.
- Having Probe + CT in your opening hand (or before T3) happens, but not that often.
- Digging for 4 when you look for a therapy is far better than only 1.
Eventually it comes down to evaluate if it is better to hit more consistently with CT (thus, playing Probe) or to actually find more consistently your sac outlets (thus, playing Ponder).
I'm basically in agreement with this, although I typically play around with the numbers a little more than you do.
The problem from a BUG standpoint is the tension between Zenith and its attending package vs blue spells (FoW) and their attending packages. There are only so many slots in a deck. Even if you shave down on Explorers (which is actually probably correct for non-scape lists, at least in this metagame, as much as that breaks my heart), you're still running afoul of space concerns.
Probe in a control deck is really, really bad. I'm of the opinion that Therapy is better in this deck than Thoughtseize anyway, meaning that you're devoting only four slots to this being a 'nic fit' deck and it functions quite well without Explorer. I don't really mind GSZ but I think it's worse than the other options and doesn't fuel delve, and there is nothing you'll want to fetch aside from the veteran.
You want DTT, not Cruise. The deck has too many lands and mana dorks.
Hi everyone. I am new to actually posting in the site (I lurk from time to time), moderately new to legacy (I don't play much, although I do watch coverage sometimes) and completely new to Nic Fit, so please bear with me.
Recently my interest in legacy has increased, and I thought I wanted to build a deck that:
a) fit my play style
b) is fun (for me) to play
c) is creature based and interactive, even if it is control or even combo focused (which sums up a) and b) for me)
d) can be adapted easily depending on the meta
e) it is not a DTB
f) I can play it without hindering card availability for the friend I share the card pool with (that would mean avoid blue centered decks, as he has a bias for those kind of decks and hey, we have just one playset of duals for both of us)
Nic Fit has always caught my eye, every time I saw it on "camera". And this past week I saw the article from Gerard Fabiano on SCG and I though "that is way different of the last Nic Fit I saw on coverage". That is something I like in a deck, that it can have a stable core, but it is adaptable and can have a different version every time by changing a bunch of cards. Somehow, that is what triggered me to search for this forum. And man, it has been a very fun experience. I spent the last couple of days reading the Primer and through the thread.
This Primer is awesome. Really. Nice work to all who contributed. To be fair, I didn't expect so many options and different styles of decks when I dove in the thread, and it has been quite a ride. If I wasn't sure what deck I wanted, now I DO know I want to play Nic Fit, but don't know which of them!! I didn't even know you could fit Birthing Pod in this shell!! (I am a longtime Pod player in Modern, so that actually interests me a lot.
So if you guys don't mind, I have a bunch of questions:
1) Jund builds caught my eye first, but I'm having a hard time knowing which one I like the most, Scapewish or Punishing Fit. What would be the reasoning behind choosing one over the other? Disregard meta for know, because I don't know it yet.
2) Jund versions don't seem to run Recurring Nightmare. Why? It seems to fit the idea of the deck as well as in the BUG versions.
3) It seems most builds have one 6cc finisher. What things are considered when choosing finisher (or curve topper)? GSZ tutorable vs resilient seems to be the main dispute (Primeval vs Grave T.). Would it make sense to have different "finishers" on the board depending on matchup (FrostTy, Massacre Wurm, Wurmcoil...)? And having more than one? With the explorer Ramp, is not difficult to have 6 mana early in the game, it would make some sense to have several 6cc creatures?
4) For obvious reasons, Pod versions attract me, but being a modern Pod player, there is something bugging me with the lists I saw: there is no "combo finish" in any of them. Pod is "just" a value engine. Is that enough to justify its inclusion? Would it be weird to try to include the "I win" creature combo? Or is there too much disruption for that to be viable?
5) Has anyone tried a Jund Pod version? I've only seen BUG versions, but it seems to me (with all my non-experience, ahem) that it could be a valid option.
6) Junk... I mean Abzan versions are the ones that interest me the least for now, but they seem to be the most consistent. Why is that?
Thanks in advance, and I hope you don't mind all this questions from a total newbie with a soft spot for Birthing Pod :)
+1.
Basically what I said earlier in a few posts ago.
I spent few hours finding a way to fight back opposing TC without playing DRS.
Ever since, Blue is soft to very soft to graveyard strategy (mitigated in BUG because of DRS, without being a haymaker either)
Here, were my assumptions:
-> I still think BUG needs the acceleration provided by Veteran
-> BUG needs to play Pernicious deed as its board presence is among the lowest in all Nic Fit version:
1) You tank in the very first turns, digging for answers (spot removal, chumpblockers) & lands.
2) You sweep & stabilize
3) You land a "protected" huge monster and hope to close the deal AFAP.
From now on, I will be testing a couple of Relic of Progenitus MD for the reasons listed below:
- Active the turn you play it (unlike DRS).
- Immune to a lot of spot removal save AD.
- Immune to Pernicious Deed (akin Top)
- At least a very bad cantrip, but still replacing itself
- Good against TC & threshold (friendly fire but to a lesser extend as Nic Fit is likely able to cast TC without delving that much)
- Good against several graveyard strategy including (without being comprehensive) Punishing Fire (is a nightmare against my Walker version and any BUG version will struggle against it), Dredge, Reanimator, ANT etc...
Any other suggestions ?
Last edited by Ralf; 11-19-2014 at 10:15 AM.
1) Punishing Fire is a hard control list. Scapewish is either a midrange deck with a combo finish or a combo/control deck, depending on which subvariant you want. It's basically how aggressive you want to be.
2) Harder to find it, doesn't tend to do as much since most of Jund's creatures are fairly low-impact overall. Some of this may be wrong -- it's an old notion that dates back to when Junk lists still ran Academy Rector.
3) The problem here is that sometimes, the game doesn't go as you plan, and you don't get to ramp as much as you would like. Sometimes you draw an opening hand with a bunch of 5s and 6s and lands and you do nothing forever (or mull it). In a perfect world where we curved naturally every game, sure, we'd run probably 3 six-drops. Some of the BUG lists still do. It's usually a little safer on the curve to only run 1, though. As to which one is selected....that's a bit more complex of a discussion since it varies wildly based on the individual list.
4) I'm a big fan of combo finishes in nic fit. The problem is that most of the ones offered by Pod are pretty rancid -- a lot of them are 3+ card combos which don't really work well in legacy. Spike Feeder / Archangel of Thune has seen a good bit of play in junk lists, although they typically trend more towards junk midrange/junk control style, with no pods. Some of that is likely because Spike Feeder isn't a great Pod card. Still, this combo has proven itself and if you want to run it, nobody will stop you. It's worth remembering that legacy gets a lot of banned toys compared to modern. How quickly would Melira Pod run Stoneforge Mystic + package if it could? At some point the space just runs out.
5) Jund Pod has been theorized a million times but never actually put into practice. The upper-cmc is all there -- the biggest problem is at the 2-spot, where you're pretty damn weak. Jund Pod is realistically one-two 2-drops away from being very strong. Neither Bob nor Goyf is what we want (the traditional Jund 2-drops).
6) Junk has a TON of raw power, and it flat wins some percentage of games just by flexing its arm Popeye-style and making its opponents quiver in fear. I'm not really sure where this illusion of consistency comes from otherwise -- it has its own problems, as with every forme of nic fit. There is no "ultimate version" -- at least, not yet.
Is Relic better than Nihil Spellbomb?
Save the non friendly fire thing. Yes.
You can ride a relic during a whole game, not a nihil.
You could also raise another valid point in that nihil is normally not impacted by AD (except if you are tapped out of black mana, you don't get to draw).
Relic keeps pressuring opponent's graveyard: 1 card per opponent turn (likely being used at every EOOT in early stage of a game).
Nevertheless, drawing a relic midgame will likely turn it as a friendly fire nihil.
One has to evaluate such odds and make an appropriate choice:
- if opponent's graveyard is on a low count (for any reasons: early game, recently cast TC... ) -> Relic > Nihil
- if opponent's graveyard is full and waiting to be delved -> for 1CMC more Nihil > Relic
As aforementioned, Nic Fit should be able to cast TC or DTT without delving much, so I'm very tempted to just go for the "flexibility" thing -> Relic.
I think the better solution is just to run your own delve cards, because against most decks a Relic is taking up your turn 1 while only being a minor annoyance to them. Even something like ANT doesn't care all that much if you're munching their graveyard. You have Glen Elendra, potentially Notion Thief, and FOW to deal with Cruise, as well as your own digs to find that stuff.
I added 3 DRS to the side for decks like dredge, storm and reanimator, but I'm not sure if it's the best GY hate card. I'd run Oozes, except that they suck in the deck due to the lack of green sources. Would spellbomb just be better? It's definitely worse against storm, about even against reanimator, and way better against dredge. It's also potentially ok vs miracles.
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