[Primer/Deck] Pox

[OmniStrata]

I like how in the first game the announcers thought after a key Smallpox they were into a long grind and remarking on what fun the Elves player was going to have next turn and then he drops a Thespian Stage and plays Crop Rotation into Dark Depths and they were like "oh crap, this has gotten ugly fast. this has escalated quickly" .

That was quite amusing. Personally, I wouldn't use tutors like Crop Rotation or Entomb simply because they are combo piece cards and don't disrupt my opponent's game plan. But if it works, go for it.

[jredelstein]

Personally, I wouldn't use tutors like Crop Rotation or Entomb simply because they are combo piece cards and don't disrupt my opponent's game plan. But if it works, go for it.

I use both Crop Rotation and Entomb as tutors for disruption most of the time. Crop Rotate for Tabernacle, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Cabal Pit, Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Maze of Ith; Entomb for Life from the Loam, any of above lands if I have Loam already, Boodghast for killing Jaces or flashing back Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy if I already have Bloodghast or Factory.

The fact that they tutor a combo finish like Stage/Depths is an added bonus not the reason for playing them. (At least the way I play the deck)

they are combo piece cards and don't disrupt my opponent's game plan. But if it works, go for it.

This is the exact reasoning I dislike Dark Ritual in Pox decks :)

[beez]

That was quite amusing. Personally, I wouldn't use tutors like Crop Rotation or Entomb simply because they are combo piece cards and don't disrupt my opponent's game plan. But if it works, go for it.

"It's a thing! You can't have it!"

[beez]

I use both Crop Rotation and Entomb as tutors for disruption most of the time. Crop Rotate for Tabernacle, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Cabal Pit, Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Maze of Ith; Entomb for Life from the Loam, any of above lands if I have Loam already, Boodghast for killing Jaces or flashing back Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy if I already have Bloodghast or Factory.

The fact that they tutor a combo finish like Stage/Depths is an added bonus not the reason for playing them. (At least the way I play the deck)



This is the exact reasoning I dislike Dark Ritual in Pox decks :)

In my non-Chalice build I've been using 2x Crop Rotation and 2x Entomb along with Living Wish. It's been good but I like your list too and may try something similar +1 Darkblast for this meta.

[beez]

Josh, I built this deck based on yours, with my cards and playstyle. It seems really good so far. You can tutor for disruption and win cons rather easily, and you can really get a fast lock on if you play it right. I love my hammer of a Chalice Loam build, but this build has an amazing amount of versatility and so many decision paths you can take that it's actually hard to play a little bit, but should be rewarding when you get used to it. I would like to include the Glacial Chasm/Stage lock out but I'm not that good at it yet, it's kind of tricky to assemble with it and two Stages and a Loam.




1 Nether Spirit

2 Pernicious Deed

4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
3 Living Wish
3 Small Pox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Thoughtseize
1 Raven's Crime


1 Bojuka Bog
1 Maze of Ith
2 Thespian Stage
2 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tombstalker
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Darkblast
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian Stage

[beez]

And my current Hammer of a Chalice Loam Pox:

Call of Cthulu



4 Liliana of the Veil

4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Trinisphere

2 Sylvan Library
1 The Abyss

4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Smallpox
3 Sinkhole
4 Living Wish
3 Life From the Loam

4 Bayou
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Wasteland
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Thespian Stage
3 Dark Depths

SB:
1 Trinisphere
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Tombstalker
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Krosan Grip
2 Bojuka Bog
1 Cabal Pit
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths

[Chatto]

I use both Crop Rotation and Entomb as tutors for disruption most of the time. Crop Rotate for Tabernacle, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Cabal Pit, Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Maze of Ith; Entomb for Life from the Loam, any of above lands if I have Loam already, Boodghast for killing Jaces or flashing back Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy if I already have Bloodghast or Factory.

The fact that they tutor a combo finish like Stage/Depths is an added bonus not the reason for playing them. (At least the way I play the deck)

This is pretty good to point out. Entomb/ Crop Rotation are there to get the disruption, as well as getting the Stage/ Depths-combo. I still think we should not forget that Pox disrupts and grinds the game. But Stage/ Depths-combo can close the game so fast, it's just silly not to include it in your deck.

@ beez: regarding your first list, you could take out Nether Spirit for a extra Living Wish, fully exploiting your wishboard. I like the list either way, though

[OmniStrata]

I use both Crop Rotation and Entomb as tutors for disruption most of the time. Crop Rotate for Tabernacle, Wasteland, Mishra's Factory, Cabal Pit, Bojuka Bog, Karakas, Maze of Ith; Entomb for Life from the Loam, any of above lands if I have Loam already, Boodghast for killing Jaces or flashing back Cabal Therapy, Cabal Therapy if I already have Bloodghast or Factory.

The fact that they tutor a combo finish like Stage/Depths is an added bonus not the reason for playing them. (At least the way I play the deck)



This is the exact reasoning I dislike Dark Ritual in Pox decks :)

Duly noted, however, I side it out if the enemy's deck is slow, much like how some people side out Force of Will. Why keep it main deck? When an opponent tries to kill you in 1-2 turns [depending if you're on the play], you REALLY need that speed. From a statistical standpoint, tutoring for disruption effectively reduces the amount of disruption your deck is capable of doing. Every tutor is 1 LESS disruption card. What's more, you spend mana on your tutor when you can just disrupt him now vs. next turn. Of course, this only applies to the first 3 turns. Dark Rit lets me cast 2-3 spells turn 1, not Entomb or Crop Rotation.

Pro: increase consistency, reduce randomness.
Con: decrease resilience, you have less real disruption.

My belief is that Pox doesn't need a combo finish to win. Why not just play a real combo deck? Again, not saying it's wrong, but when I've faced decks designed with a combo finish, I'm glad I went the 100% disruption route vs. the bonus combo. I also forget, you Crop Rotators can't run Dark Ritual anyway since you splash harder.

[jredelstein]

My belief is that Pox doesn't need a combo finish to win. Why not just play a real combo deck? Again, not saying it's wrong, but when I've faced decks designed with a combo finish, I'm glad I went the 100% disruption route vs. the bonus combo. I also forget, you Crop Rotators can't run Dark Ritual anyway since you splash harder.

I totally agree, I have been reluctant to put dark depths in my deck over bloodghasts and Mishra's factories but it became a necessity to avoid draws(I actually started 3-0-3 at SCG Providence earlier this year). I have been playing my G/B Pox deck for quite a while and play it very fast but I was still taking draws because my opponents are not as proficient with their decks, especially Miracles players on the SCG Open circuit.

I disagree about tutored disruption though, every disruption tutored with Crop Rotation effects the game immediately. Entomb is rarely a turn one play. I do commonly go T1: IoK T2: upkeep entomb Bloodghast, play land triggering bloodghast, Cabal Therapy, flashback cabal therapy. This is also why I play 4 Crop Rotation and only 2 Entomb.

[Matthias]

Infernal Tutor:

Speaking about tutors, this one seems great in a deck that should be playing in topdeck-mode starting about turn 3. Has this been discussed before?

[Orchaos]

Infernal Tutor:

Speaking about tutors, this one seems great in a deck that should be playing in topdeck-mode starting about turn 3. Has this been discussed before?

It has been discussed before. If I'm not mistaken, it isn't quite worth it because, most often than not, it's a dead card. Besides, playing pox means you won't have that many lands so paying 1B to look for a card and than cast it can be troublesome.

I can't remember the more detailed reasons, but I'm quite sure that was the consensus.

[Chatto]

My belief is that Pox doesn't need a combo finish to win. Why not just play a real combo deck? Again, not saying it's wrong, but when I've faced decks designed with a combo finish, I'm glad I went the 100% disruption route vs. the bonus combo. I also forget, you Crop Rotators can't run Dark Ritual anyway since you splash harder.

I don't see Stage/Depths as a combo finish, more as a swift finish if you are able to get it. It's more like something to get if you get the oppertunity I do understand what you mean though, and your reasoning is still in the back of my mind: still, I like it so far

[ntropy]

Hi folks! I played in GP Jersey with Loampox and did abysmally. I had a blast though, so I'll tell you about it. First off my thoughts on pox right now. I think we struggle against Burn and we struggle against Dredge, two of the decks I expected to see in large numbers. We historically are good in the Delver matchup, but Treasure Cruise changes the entire ball game. Legacy is now about Card Advantage again, not just Card Quality. Tempo/Control decks again have the ability to just pick up another handful of cards. (remember Intuition/Ancestral Knowledge in Super Gro?) For a grinding deck that is trying to keep it's opponent on zero cards and zero permanents, this is tough. To make matters worse, the card in question isn't hit by the same disruption I use to turn off the Cantrip engine (Chalice of the Void) So without a serious overhaul/testing session my Chalice/Loam Pox list was the worst possible choice for the tournament outside of Tribal Dwarves or Invincible Counter Troll. To add to this, I haven't played a game of Legacy in 9 months. So I sleeved it up the night before, played 4 games against my hotel roommates, and went for it. 1-3 drop. Whatever, good times were had. I lost to Burn round one, EsperBlade round two, and Izzet Delver? round four. Round 3 was fun, so I'll tell you about it. Game one I lose the die roll. My opponent (Yuan was his name) casts Balustrade Spy and wins on his first turn. Oops. So I board in 4 Leyline of the Void and 4 Sphere of Resistance. I keep my seven and drop turn zero Leyline and turn 1 Sphere.:) Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth. Game 3 I have the Leyline in my seven again, and a Sphere shortly afterwards. The best part of this match however, was the match happening next to us. The Mono Black Pox Mirror Match was going on next to us! Sure we were in the 0-2 bracket, but such a concentration of Pox!:) They were on like turn 3 and both were hellbent with one land. It was hysterical. Anyways, the list I played (if you dare) was as folllows:

4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole
4 Chalice of the void
4 Smallpox
4 Mox Diamond
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Syphon Life
1 Nether Spirit
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Cabal Pit
1 Bojuka Bog

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Sphere of Resistance
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Engineered Plague
1 Perish
1 Maelstrom Pulse


If I were doing it again today I would cut Nether Spirit for a second Syphon Life to help the Burn matchup. I might cut one bridge and the Perish to free up some slots for Spinning Darkness too. Maybe cut one Sphere? I don't know. I was fine with the list really. My play was very rusty. All of my matches were very winnable, I just wasn't on top of my game.

[ntropy]

On the subject of tutors and combo finishes. I really like Living wish as a card, and I'm not certain why it's never occurred to me to put it in Chalice Pox. Except that in Pox I'm only looking for cards that disrupt. As I rebuild my collection, I'll be adding some wishes to try out, with or without a combo finish. I think the ability to wish for a Tombstalker can be huge. I think tutors are tough. Demonic tutor is clearly very powerful, but if it were legal, would it have a place in pox? It's only so powerful in vintage because it finds restricted cards. That's IMHO why Grim Tutor sees so little play. It can't find Yawgmoth's Will. I can't think of a single reason why Infernal Tutor would be useful. 2 mana and a card should be tightening the screws, not setting up your next turn. I think Living Wish dodges this because mostly what you find costs zero and is uncounterable. Find a Ghost Quarter and it's like the wish was a sinkhole. Find Tabernacle and it's like the wish was a Toxic Deluge (sortof) I'm excited to try out some stuff with Wish. I'll keep you posted.

[hovercraft]

On the subject of tutors and combo finishes. I really like Living wish as a card, and I'm not certain why it's never occurred to me to put it in Chalice Pox. Except that in Pox I'm only looking for cards that disrupt. As I rebuild my collection, I'll be adding some wishes to try out, with or without a combo finish. I think the ability to wish for a Tombstalker can be huge. I think tutors are tough. Demonic tutor is clearly very powerful, but if it were legal, would it have a place in pox? It's only so powerful in vintage because it finds restricted cards. That's IMHO why Grim Tutor sees so little play. It can't find Yawgmoth's Will. I can't think of a single reason why Infernal Tutor would be useful. 2 mana and a card should be tightening the screws, not setting up your next turn. I think Living Wish dodges this because mostly what you find costs zero and is uncounterable. Find a Ghost Quarter and it's like the wish was a sinkhole. Find Tabernacle and it's like the wish was a Toxic Deluge (sortof) I'm excited to try out some stuff with Wish. I'll keep you posted.

I play loam-chalice-wish pox. I think it works great with the depths combo finish. This is the approximate list I've been using, but im constantly tweaking it. My friend won our legacy tourney using it a couple weeks ago.


Land/mana
1 Barren Moor
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
4 Mox Diamond

4 Chalice of the Void
1 Exploration
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
3 Sinkhole
2 Smallpox
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Realms Uncharted
1 The Abyss
1 Unmask

Sideboard
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Wasteland
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Necroplasm
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tombstalker

[beez]

@ Ntropy - I feel that 4 Sphere is way too much. The Chalice Loam Pox has a higher curve, and taxing our own spells is something I don't like. In daring to be slightly worse to Storm, I have changed the Spheres, to Trinispheres and even maindecked one. Lilliana's cost 3 instead of four. The Abyss costs 4 instead of 5.

@ hovercraft - That is very interesting sideboard. I suppose you board out the Smallpox vs Storm so the Revoker is good there. How has Wishing for Reclaimation Sage been vs Miracles? I'm reluctant to give up Krosan Grip vs them, but the ability to Wish for Sage would be better in other matchups. Killing a Batterskull etc. game one. Necroplasm is one I have been toying around with too. I like its ability to clear tokens quickly and relentlessly clear the board slowly, but I have found it to be a bit slow and that people can play around it's "cycle" a bit and bolt it unlike other board wipes, and it takes forever to kill a 2cmc Goyf and Young Pyromancer that way. Often too late. That being said it can dominate a late game situation so I guess the key is being very strategic when you Wish for it. And finally, how do you sideboard vs Dredge? Do you put a Scavenging Ooze maindeck and leave one in the Wishboard? I take it the single Bog stays in the board?

Realms Uncharted? very interesting.

Have been considering a singleton Rolling Spoil but I think that 4 cmc with 2 green will prove to be too much.

[apple713]

what are pox's three best / worst matchups? I'm looking to meta game this deck for something.

[Chatto]

(...)
Have been considering a singleton Rolling Spoil but I think that 4 cmc with 2 green will prove to be too much.

@ beez: I believe that card will be a little too much , but let us know if it works!

[hovercraft]

@ Ntropy - I feel that 4 Sphere is way too much. The Chalice Loam Pox has a higher curve, and taxing our own spells is something I don't like. In daring to be slightly worse to Storm, I have changed the Spheres, to Trinispheres and even maindecked one. Lilliana's cost 3 instead of four. The Abyss costs 4 instead of 5.

@ hovercraft - That is very interesting sideboard. I suppose you board out the Smallpox vs Storm so the Revoker is good there. How has Wishing for Reclaimation Sage been vs Miracles? I'm reluctant to give up Krosan Grip vs them, but the ability to Wish for Sage would be better in other matchups. Killing a Batterskull etc. game one. Necroplasm is one I have been toying around with too. I like its ability to clear tokens quickly and relentlessly clear the board slowly, but I have found it to be a bit slow and that people can play around it's "cycle" a bit and bolt it unlike other board wipes, and it takes forever to kill a 2cmc Goyf and Young Pyromancer that way. Often too late. That being said it can dominate a late game situation so I guess the key is being very strategic when you Wish for it. And finally, how do you sideboard vs Dredge? Do you put a Scavenging Ooze maindeck and leave one in the Wishboard? I take it the single Bog stays in the board?

Realms Uncharted? very interesting.

Have been considering a singleton Rolling Spoil but I think that 4 cmc with 2 green will prove to be too much.

I don't think I have tested vs Miracles yet. I may be too reliant on the wishboard at times, but they are fun to play with. The overall list and board could probably still use some refining

Vs Dredge I put both scooze in the MD and leave the Bojuka bog in the wishboard

And I like realms with loam active as you essentially just get all 4 lands. Rolling spoil is cool, but you are right that 4cmc is tough. But as a singleton it should be fine

[ntropy]

@ Ntropy - I feel that 4 Sphere is way too much. The Chalice Loam Pox has a higher curve, and taxing our own spells is something I don't like. In daring to be slightly worse to Storm, I have changed the Spheres, to Trinispheres and even maindecked one. Lilliana's cost 3 instead of four. The Abyss costs 4 instead of 5.

The matches I'm bringing it in for demand that I land it early, so I want 4. I've considered dropping to 3, but I haven't tried it yet. I can't cast Trinisphere on turn 1 unless I somehow pull off double Mox Diamond, so I prefer the SoRs. Turn 1 Sphere is big game vs. decks like Storm. In my experience, the decks that I bring it in against are so hampered by it that I have time to develop my mana a little better. I could see bringing in a less than 4 number of them in some matchups.