It depends on your list. If you play a full set of Trinisphere's the Caverns are more or less redundant. Good luck keeping 3 mana open at all time to cast your daze of FOW...Originally Posted by Sockosensei
That's a level of redundancy that I'm happy to have because it's never a guarantee that Trinisphere resolves and stays in play.It depends on your list. If you play a full set of Trinisphere's the Caverns are more or less redundant. Good luck keeping 3 mana open at all time to cast your daze of FOW...
That's true.
Also depends on the number of creatures in your list of course. If you plan with Karn as a substite for some creatures, as I do, Cavern has less use.
In my Welder version I use 4, although I'd rather play 8
I got 3rd this past weekend at a local tournament with this list. I can write a report if anyone cares:
4 Goblin welder
4 Metalworker
4 Kuldotha forgemaster
3 Lodestone golem
1 Blighsteel colossus
1 Platinum emperion
1 Sundering titan
1 Myr battlesphere
1 Wurmcoil engine
1 Godo, bandit warlord
1 Batterskull
3 Daretti, scrap savant
1 Staff of domination
4 Chalice of the void
2 Lightning Greaves
2 Thousand-year elixir
3 Grim monolith
4 Ancient tomb
4 City of traitors
4 Cavern of souls
4 Great furnace
4 Wasteland
3 Mountain
Sideboard:
3 Tormods crypt
2 Phryexian revoker
2 Ratchet bomb
2 Torpor orb
1 Trinisphere
1 Steel hellkite
1 Contagion engine
1 Platinum angel
1 Spine of ish sah
1 Duplicant
Emperion and daretti were both amazing. The only change I would make to the main is to drop the 2nd greaves in favor of a 3rd elixir. Since most people will just hold mana open for their swords/decays/bolts/whatever (especially when they see a greaves on the table), elixir has just been a better card. The ability to get double activations out of worker, welder, and kuldotha (get myr battlsphere, untap, sac 3 tokens, get something else) is relevant as well. I would love to find room for a 4th lodestone, but the golem has been the weakest card in the deck for me with all the lightning bolts running around. It feels like a 4 mana hydroblast most of the time.
I'm going to try pyroclasm or something similar in the board over the ratchet bombs, as so many people are tending towards young pyro decks. I also would drop the torpor orbs for more combo hate, trinispheres most likely.
Overall, I think the 12-post version is more consistent and has more lumbering inevitability, but I find this version more intricate, explosive, and funner to play.
I'd love to read about daretti
Same here.
I think Daretti does everything that MUD wants (card selection and gives another use to spent monoliths and extra chalices and trinispheres, not to talk about the ultimate), and it's a shame that until now it's not have been exploited.
My principal issue is the mana base: after testing the post version (4 city, 4 tomb, 4 cloudpost, 4 glimmerpost, 3 vesuva, 2 wasteland, 3 cavern of souls) I've been very happy to be able to cast wurmcoil without monolith or metalworker, so I'm hesitant about changing it.
Theoretically for 3 daretti at least 6 red sources are needed (7 would be better), so I should drop 2 wastelands, 1 vesuva and 3 caverns/2 cavern and 1 city, but it would be sad to lose uncounterability...
What are your thoughts about it?
Ignorance is strength
What was your local meta like? Also, I would love to hear more as well.
I am wondering, why aren't you using Tangle Wires?
I am also surprise it saw little to no play at GPNJ. When I heard "a lot of MUD" in day one, I was expecting to see Darettis on the coverage.
I think that version of the deck doesn't need the slower Post manabase because you have multiple ways to get robots onto the field; whether you weld them or Forgemaster them. And reaching 6 mana with Sol Lands+Utility Lands is attainable.
-------
Once I get some available time, I will update the primer with all the goodies this archetype has been getting.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Oh, Do Tell.
I've moved off of MUD to 12Post, but I'm thinking about playing a Daretti, scrap savant brew during the week.
Did anyone figure out busted artifacts beyond the normal with him? I've played against him and EDH and he seems like a PW that is very easy to ultimate. I'm going to start my old tangle wire list and start from there.
Is the opinion that Daretti x3 is the optimal number? I will probably shave a few welders since they are pretty much redundant cards.
I'll post mine Saturday. I feel it's very close to what I want it to be. It runs Choke, Punishing Fire, Sylvan Library, Tangle Wire, Trinisphere, Contagion Engine, Chalice of the Void, Daretti, and Serrated Arrows. I am still considering Possesed Portal, Sundering Titan, Wurmcoil Engine and 2 Batterskull+1 Godo.
Here we go then, 5 rounds of swiss and then top 8. Incoming wall of text
UR burn w/ swiftspear
g1: On the draw, I drop a turn 1 chalice at 1 even though he has a goblin guide. He just drops eidolon and passes. I block the eidolon with kuldotha, and he attempts to burn kuldotha, forcing the activation. He has the goblin guide to chump block blighsteel, so I grab the emperion. I gotta sac the chalice and this almost bites me in the ass, as he has triple bolt in hand to kill the emperion, but a daretti grabs it back for the win.
-4 welder -titan +trinisphere +2 ratchet +2 revoker (for blockers)
g2: My 7 has a wasteland and a bunch of 5cc + stuff. I try the 6 with chalice and not much else. The game comes down to him tapping out for a price of progress, and me having to waste my own land to survive on 3 life with a mountain and greaves in play. With tomb + staff of domination in hand, all i need is a topdecked metalworker for infinite life. I rip a blightsteel instead.
g3: He burns 2 metalworkers, which gives me enough time to get out elixir + kuldotha. He doesn't have a creature, so I grab the blightsteel with plenty of life. He shows me the smash to smithereens he was saving for the emperion. 1-0
UR snapcaster/dualcaster mage control
g1: I have a turn 2 uncounterable wurmcoil engine on the play. I understand that's pretty good against red decks.
-1 emperion +1 trinisphere (didn't really know what he was playing)
g2: He has 2x smash to smithereens, with snapcaster and dualcaster to make it 4x smash to smithereens. Between that and my ancient tomb, this wasn't much of a game.
-titan -1 greaves +2 torpor orb
g3: I have the turn 1 chalice at 1, and he doesn't have the force. He also cant cantrip to find his smash to smithereens, so has to draw it the old fashion way. He doesn't before kuldotha finds a blighsteel. He does get to show me all the pretty stifles and brainstorms in his hand. 2-0
UWr miracles
g1: Hand with mountain, cavern, welder, metalworkerx2, kuldotha, blighsteel. Welder eats a sword, metalworker eats a sword, metalworker #2 eats a snapcaster -> sword, and kuldotha finds a terminus. However his counter-top is about all he has left, and it misses the daretti. Daretti goes to work, finding a batterskull for the win.
-emperion -2 greaves +2 revoker +1 ratchet (for entreat)
g2: I have a turn 2 chalice at 1, which gets forced. That clears the way for turn 3 daretti. He doesn't have an answer for it in the 1 turn he has between when the sundering titan I have in my hand becomes the sundering titan I have in play. He has to sword the titan, but daretti finds me a wurmcoil engine and a goblin welder. Wurm tokens go the distance. 3-0
Elves
g1: I have an innocent turn 2 lightning greaves. He makes a bunch of mana and a bunch of elves, but is tapped out except for a 1/1. You know the drill. Metalworker -> kuldotha -> blighsteel -> face.
-4 welder -1 daretti -godo -wurmcoil -batterskull -titan +2 revoker +contagion +2 ratchet +2 torpor +hellkite +trinisphere
g2: I have kuldotha turn 2, and almost feel confidant. He has to zenith for reclamation sage on his turn. Luckily I have a daretti to get it back. He doesn't win that turn, and I get to tap kuldotha for a contagion engine and activate it (putting 2 counters on daretti). He reads daretti's ultimate and scoops them up before I even get a chance to use it. 4-0
UWr stoneblade with young pyro
g1: I have turn 2 daretti off a monolith, dropping battelsphere and kuldotha into grave. I cheat in the kuldotha and daretti eats a bolt. He finds a sword for kuldotha, but with emperion, blightsteel, and staff of domination in hand, I opt to grab metalworker and hope he can't answer it. The worker gets to untap and drop emperion and staff, but he immediately topdecks another sword for emperion, and drops jitte. We go into a topdeck battle of me trying to find 3 artifacts in hand, and him trying to kill metalworker. We both flood out badly, while the staff keeps his jitte tapped down. I actually never get to go infinite, as I hit a welder first and he scoops to welder + the battlesphere I entombed way back on turn 2.
-emperion -2 greaves -3 lodestone +2 revoker +contagion +hellkite +2 ratchet bomb (there's no easy way to board for this...)
g2: Just one of those games against stoneblade. Force for chalice, bolt for metalworker, sword for wurmcoil. All while cantripping with young pyro in play. So it goes.
g3: Ballsy hand. Cityx2, chalice, metalworker, staff, godo, and elixir. Chalice makes it in safely. I draw a welder, and play the metalworker off the 2nd city. I draw a cavern of souls, and drop the uncounterable bandit warlord. Ordinarily I would have gotten a greaves for metalworker, and gone for the staff combo, but since I boarded them out, I get a batterskull instead. His turn 3 sfm for batterskull looks pretty sad in comparison. I end up just comboing out with staff, but it looked like godo equiped with batterskull would have taken the game anyhow. 5-0
Top 8: Burn
g1: I just randomly have a great hand against burn. Turn 2 wurmcoil engine.
-4 welder -titan +2 revoker +2 ratchet +1 trinisphere
g2: I have to choose between turn 2 kuldotha or turn 3 emperion. I opt for the emperion, and he drops an ensnaring bridge in its face, which starts a staring contest. The game comes down to him trying to triple burn the emperion in response to a lightning greaves. Through the magic of kuldotha + elixir, metalworker and staff of domination suddenly appear, and that's that. 6-0
Top 4: Tin fins
g1: I have greaves + metalworker + lodestone + emperion. Solid. I play mountain, and pass. He has underground sea, pass. I decide to wasteland it, because why not. He doesn't have a 2nd land, but doesn't seem to mind as lotus petal -> dark ritual -> entomb -> shallow grave -> grieselbrand -> draw 14 -> emrakul -> face. Cool.
-4 welder -titan +2 revoker +3 tormod +trinisphere +duplicant
g2: My 7 has no hate cards. My 6 has no lands. My 5 has a turn 2 trinisphere, but not much else. Ill take it. He has glit probe + cabal therapy for the trinisphere. He wins turn 3. Grumble. 6-1
I love cavern too much to cut it. If you really wanted to run 12-post and daretti, I think a better option would be a mana rock like mox diamond or talisman of impulse or something like that. But once you run daretti, it makes welder that much better. Personally, I think you just need to pick a side: 12-post or a mana base like I ran. I play the deck more like a 1-card combo deck. That 1 card is kuldotha, and my entire deck revolves around getting it into play and tapped. You just don't need 12-posts to get to 5 mana. Sometimes you can hardcast titan or blightsteel or cheat them into play with welder/daretti/metalworker, but that isn't the goal. I think this is a subtle change in mindset that is hard for people who like to play 12post.
Like I said above, I don't play this as a prison deck. I don't run trinispheres or crucible of worlds or smokestack or karn or any of that. Every card in the deck is designed to either play kuldotha, protect kuldotha, recur kuldotha, or be fetched by kuldotha. Tangle wire doesn't do that, is poor against young pyro, and needs a welder/daretti to really shine.
I think 3 is the minimum if you intend to run it. I was so impressed by it, I will be trying 4 in the future. The thing is that daretti makes welder better, so it seems odd to cut welders for daretti. I think lodestone golem is the weakest card in the deck, and competes at 4cc, but it does shine in certain matchups...
You confirm my findings. Daretti is insane and ive been playing no less than 4. Your deck is entirely different from mine though, but i can tell you Daretti plays a crucial role to filter redundant prison cards, gain card advantage, set up broken welds and ultimate. Literally every aspect of the card has performed great for me so far. I enjoyed reading your report. Also, skip pyroclasm. Use Whipflare to save your revokers and metalworkers.
Thanks for your report! Nice reading and good deck-building. I'm going to try something like this I think, but will kick out the lodestones probably.
I see what youre saying. Back when I played a more combo oriented Welder version, I ran Tangle Wire but not Chalice/Trinisphere on the main (they were on the side).
I like this Daretti version of Welder. The Combo Welder I ran on the OP was consistent but soft to hate. This version seems to be as consistent but more flexible. I think this is the way to go if Daretti's would be involved.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
If red MUD comes back besides Godo and Daretti, Bonfire of the Damned and Moltensteel Dragon could be an option. I like especially the first one, but I dont know if it is playable without SDT.
Edit: Just tested a red version with Bonfire and I like it quite a bit. Even if it is already in hand, as it can deal with TNN and all the pesky little dudes. I also like Godo to gain some life, as we dont have Glimmerpost in the red build. Whats the best second equipment besides Batterskull? I am torn between a second skull, SOFI or Jitte.
Last edited by deadlock; 11-27-2014 at 08:01 PM.
BBB
Bonfire doesn't deal with nemesis because protection prevents damage. To be fair nothing in red deals with nemesis.
It is a strong card though, but i think sudden demise would just be better.
Hey, I've been reading this thread and registered just to post here.
I'm gonna be playing in the seattle invitational in a couple weeks, but I don't normally play much legacy. Luckily, I have access to almost any card through friends, so I've been studying hard for the format.
So far, my choice is to play a MUD deck simply because I think most decks are very soft to an early chalice or trinisphere and I think I'll win a fair amount of games just off that interaction. Plus, something about dropping sundering titans on turn 3 really speaks to me. :D
That said, the list I saw that made me fall in love was the one that got 7th at edison http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=76112
However, I'm a sucker for value tricks and my instinct says to put welder and/or daretti in there. I understand why that guy didn't, since he's trying hard to drop a chalice for 1 on turn 1, and then he can't cast welder anyways. Plus, once he has them under some mana denial like that, he can just cast a game ending threat right after, having so many ways to potentially hardcast wurmcoils/sundering titan/etc.. right away.
I can see the verdict is somewhat split on which version is better in the thread, but would you say the 12post version is a little more straight forward in how it operates? While I believe I'm a strong player in general, I'm also realistic considering my lack of legacy experience. I have a feeling I'll not have as good a read on my opponents every time. So, I want to be more proactive then reactive. Plus, the meta is so wide open that I'd rather be the one asking questions then answering them.
If it's relatively similar, I may lean towards playing 2-3 Daretti at least, and not welder. Or, is that hedging too much and making it weaker overall? Do you just have to either go 12post or daretti/welder, and not bother hybridizing them?
Oh my bad, thought it kills it, because of the damage to "all" of his creatures.Bonfire doesn't deal with nemesis because protection prevents damage. To be fair nothing in red deals with nemesis.
It is a strong card though, but i think sudden demise would just be better.
This is a crucial point. Monobrown is so strong, because it doesnt rely on Metalworker with 12 post to get out the big robots imo. But 12 post (better 11 post) + 8 sol lands leaves very little room. So it is feasible to ditch 11 post in a red version and adjust the deck accordingly. If we dont want to rely on graveyard recursion too heavily, the mana curve has to be reduced accordingly.If it's relatively similar, I may lean towards playing 2-3 Daretti at least, and not welder. Or, is that hedging too much and making it weaker overall? Do you just have to either go 12post or daretti/welder, and not bother hybridizing them?
BBB
That's the same thing I'm coming to realize: on the mana base depends the choice of the spells, so if you go for the 12-post route you could aford to play high CC cards (you can do this even without posts, but you would rely too much on metalworker and monolith to cast your spells), while if you don't play posts you should lower your curve.
Since you have chosen the latter you can afford to play many colored spells (daretti, godo and welder)thanks to the high number of red sources.
My wish was to use the 12-post mana base substituting the non-post one mana producing lands with mountains in order to play only 3 Daretti. Maybe the drawbacks (no more uncounterability, no more wastes) don't mitigate the asvantages (Daretti).
Taking as example Santomassino's list (http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=15272&iddeck=113408), what changes would you do to the mana base (including the use of mox diamond but not of talisman of impulse because I think it's just too bad here) in order to play 3 daretti?
Regarding your list:
are 33 artifacts sufficient for metalworker activations or could you see swapping one for the fourth monolith?
since you weren't impressed with lodestone golem in your build, do you think dropping them for 3 trinisphere could be an upgrade? In your deck Trinisphere does what lodestone (the tax which kind of "protects" your creatures from counters and removals) do but much better, and sometimes you can lock opponent out of the game; it doesn't beat but neither dies from a bolt.
Ignorance is strength
This is the list I'm currently playing. It is not yet optimized but I find that it plays rather nicely.
[LANDS 20]
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Taiga
4 Wooded Foothills
[CORE 36]
4 Daretti, Scrap Savant
2 Karn Liberated
4 Punishing Fire
4 Tangle Wire
2 Serrated Arrows
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Contagion Engine
4 Trinisphere
4 Choke
2 Gruul Signet
3 Talisman of Impulse
[FLEX]
2 Sylvan Library
2 Batterskull
1 Godo, Bandit Warlord
1 Contagion Engine
The flex slots are still uncertain. These could be replaced for cards like Sundering Titan, extra Wurmcoil Engines or Possessed Portal, or any from the vast pool of red/green cards.
I'm currently playing with Serrated Arrows because I think it is really good in this deck. It often 1 for 3's or 1 for 2's an opponent, and it's downright impossible for an opponent to win through creatures when Contagion Engine sits next to it since the double proliferate will add new arrow counters on Serrated Arrows and add new -1/-1 counters to creatures. The only problem I still have in terms of creatures is cheated haymakers (reanimator/sneak/snt/turbo eldrazi). Although i have Karn Liberated hasted beats is problematic. Ensnaring Bridge from the sideboard could address those.
Tangle Wire and Choke work together nicely. I often lead with Tangle Wire, tapping four permanents (usually lands) only to resolve a Choke on the following turn. This ensures that only force of will can counter my Choke . Contrary to normal decks playing Tangle Wire, it becomes progressively stronger as the fade counters disappear. This is because the opponent will have less untapped permanents left to tap for tangle wire each consecutive turn with choke in play.
Punishing Fire and Serrated Arrows ensures that Tangle Wire stays relevant by getting rid of cheap permanents .
Contagion Engine with Tangle Wire is enough to win the game, since you will just ramp Tangle Wire to an arbitrarily large amount. You will just draw-go until you have Punishing Fire and Grove of the Burnwillows and burn out your opponent in your upkeep as well as activating Contagion Engine to increase Tangle Wire, by drawing all your mana before your Tangle Wire forces you to tap all your permanents.
Daretti, Scrap Savant is so good that I often find it difficult to choose between its +2 and -2 abilities. The card is super crazy and the fact that you can ramp him hard means he's not as fragile as some other walkers. Imagine how hard it would be to get rid of Jace if his +2 was the brainstorm ability instead of the scry ability.
- The deck is soft to burn decks, which is a problem. If anyone has any ideas to improve that matchup (Sun Droplet is nice, but I'm especially fearful of Price of Progress). Perhaps I have to find more space for Batterskull, Godo Bandit Warlord and Wurmcoil Engines. so that I also have a decent beat down plan and life gain at my disposal. I also have too many cards right now.
Last edited by bruizar; 11-29-2014 at 08:05 AM.
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