Goldfish a lot, then play against competent tempo players (both with counters and discard varieties), then play against Emrakul players. The short version is that turns one and two are setup turns, and that you want to go off as late as possibl. Learn the decision-trees for the early turns and the goldfishing should teach you how to sequence spells properly. This is arguably the most complex combo deck you're likely to play in Legacy, and the lessons you take home are always useful.Originally Posted by runkor
latest update on my list:
SB:
-1 twincast + 1 wipe away.
Report time !
I went to a monthly tournament last week end and decided to give my latest list a good spin.
1st Round: Sylvan Plug piloted by Lejay. Lost 0-2
I know what he is on.
G1: OTP
I'm able to prevent a nasty choke hitting the table (2 times thanks to 2 remand).
At some point, I have 4 lands in play against Lejay' six. He is playing a chalice@1 which I know would be followed up by choke. I went for it with chalice on the stack and failed by not having a strong draw spell within the 3 top cards.
G2: OTP
I force a chalice@1 by his T2 which is followed up by a sylvan library.
Sylvan library gave him enough gas to draw into choke + trini while I was stuck on 2 lands.
I scooped to a lethal board with Titania and 2 other 5/3 guys.
2nd Round: Mono Black Control piloted by Jean Pat. Won 2-0
Pretty uneventful, the guy was playing 15 discard MD but Meditate/DTT invalidates his whole deck:
G1: OTD
I played cantrips, made land drops, hid some big draw spells and just kill him before liliana reached her ultimate.
G2: OTD
I had to cope with a T1 Planar void with one of my DTT in hand. Eventually, I drew a repeal and was able to go-off by copying one of his big draw spell (draw 4 cards, lose half your life rounded up):
- high tide
- repeal planar -> draw 1
- twincast your spell -> draw 4, lose half of my life
-> won from there
3rd Round: Abzan Nic Fit piloted by Quentin Lost 1-2
I know what he is on since my previous success with Abzan Nic Fit gave him confidence to pick up the archetype.
G1: OTD
I have to face 3 Cabal Therapy in the first 3 turns which ended up shredding my hand apart.
Unfortunately, sac'ing an explorer against a high tide deck is asking for trouble.
Eventually I drew a tide + a cantrip and chose to go off end of the turn before facing lethal.
G2: OTD
I through away this game and that might have been the whole big missplay I did over this day.
Everything was under control until the following:
Board:
Teeg + Canonist + DRS + Reclamation Sage
1) Bounce Canonist then Teeg EOOT
2) Play a land during my turn and ship it back
3) Attempt to go off with canonist on the stack
4) Here is the full sequence:
HT->floating mana-> Reset -> Repeal on DRS ->DRS targetting Reset -> SCM on Reset -> Forgot to float remaining mana -> I ended
up fizzling as I was missing the extra mana...
G3: OTP
Interesting game where drawing any 1cmc playable card would have given me victory.
My hand was a beautiful potential T4 kill -> HT, BF, RESET, CW, Repeal + 2 lands
1) I faced a T3 GSZ for Gaddock then he shipped it back to me.
2) I drew peek & played my 4th land. EOT
3) He played a CT and I opted to go off with the CT on the stack:
a) HT
b) Reset (floating 4 mana)
c) Peek -> drawing opt -> opt into repeal (FFS...1st was a land)
d) Cunning for remand -> 7 mana floating
e) BF -> remand -> BF
18 + 27 cards milled -> 48 left in his library and he succeeded in killing me within 3 turns.
Sad life...
Round 4: Temur Delver Won 2-1
Cool, my worst nightmare !!! But my best match of the day and by far.
G1: OTD
Opponent mull to 5 OTP -> T1 Delver. Delver refused to flip the very next turn and I flusterstorm his ponder.
Bunch of turns later, I'm able to sneak a meditate against a non lethal board and that was that. CA + counter gave me enough gas to BF him for the win.
G2: OTD
Perfect tempo rape. T1 Delver, T2 Mongoose backed up with trillion of permissions while I was struggling to find the 3rd land...
G3: OTP
Weird opening hands 5 (3 fetch lands) lands +1 repeal+1 MBT. After pondering for a minute I decided to keep this hand.
A T1 Delver got repealed and replayed afterwards and I have 6 turns to sculpt a "perfect hand" to try to go off:
Eventually, the big turn showed up (I'm at 2 life) and I have 7 lands in play & the following cards in hand:
HT, Reset, DTT, BS, PoN, MBT. The stack went like this:
1) HT -> resolves (12 floating mana)
2) Reset -> snare
3) Brainstorm -> REB
4) PoN targetting snare -> fully paid FOW on Reset again
5) MBT -> every opponent spells
6) DTT -> Won from there.
Last Round: BANT midrange Lost 0-2
So unfortunately, I had to mull to 5 on the first and to 6 on the second game.
Thinking about it, I should have kept the first hand of the first game.
I had somehow a fast kill if I drew another land + a kill condition but no cantrips at all:
HT, HT, Snap, SCM, Snap, Reset, Land.
G1: OTD
The mull to 6 was a no land hand & the mull to 5 was a 2 land hand + remand, repeal and opt.
My opponent went for T1 -> forest into GSZ for Dryad. Hmmm Maverick ?
I spent the first few turns digging for lands & sculpting my hand but I faced a T3 Jace which ended up giving enough gas (counters) to prevent me from coming back into the game.
Eventually I died to a monstruous KotR.
G2: OTP
Again mulligan to 6 with an average hand containing no counterspell but 2 medidate & 1 DTT, 2 fetch 1 peek.
Peek revealed:
- BS
- FOW
- SCM
- Swan song
- GSZ
- 2 lands
What a f. nightmare...
My opponent started again with T1 GSZ for dryad which again put me out of tempo.
Some SCM shenanigans later and a resolved Jace, I had to push through my spell against his counterspells' barrier.
Eventually, DTT was my last card in hand and broke through (3 Fow, 2 Swan song):
3 lands left (2 used for DTT on his upkeep)=> I chose a Reset + Medidate among the 7 revealed by DTT.
All I needed was the medidate to be strong:
- 3 lands
- 1 flusterstorm.
Real.
I ended the day at 2-3 which could have easily been 3-2 save my horrible punt in round 3.
I really enjoyed playing Solidarity.
If you have any questions, feel free to shoot.
conclusion about the list?
Hard to draw any meaningful conclusions.
1) MD is pretty cool (like yours) and I wouldn't change anything right now as I believe it is "too" soon.
2) Variance is still a thing
3) SB may have to be revisited to better fight back "stompy" decks.
I agree with you; that's why in sb I just re+lace a twincast for the 3rd wipe away.
One suggestion that I'm trying :split Repeal and Into the Roil.
Fast comparison:
Against permanent cost 3 or more : Into the roil is better. You can choose from bounce 2 mana or 4 mana + draw. Repeal always will be 4 mana or more.
Against permanent cost 2: both have the same level. With repeal always will be bounce per 3 mana and draw. With Into the Roil, you can choose from bounce 2 mana or 4 mana + draw, what is best at the time . Against Thalia and Gaddock Teeg, Into the Roil is better.
Against permanent cost 1 or 0: Repeal is better
Chalice of the void : Into the roil winsss!!!!!
so guys, what do you think?
The idea behind a card mechanism shell like repeal+remand+fluster(arguable)+snap it's that it is always a 1 per 2 case. You said almost anything against permanents that cost 1 or 0 repeal is indeed better so it is against cmc 2 cause cantrip w/ repeal x=2 total cmc 3, Into the roil bounceable permanent with cmc = [0-3] in order to cantrip it will be higher or in case of cmc 3 equal to repeal cost to the same effect. A small plus vs CB repeal always = to cmc3.
Why Into the roil doesn't fit sb?
As for decks like stompy MUD and etc I prefer the combination of rebuild and wipe away it's much stronger and you are not only covering your ass as you are also disrupting completely your op strategy. - 1 idea I keep in mind vs stompy is that if we extend the game it's half of a victory already.
As for DnT/haterators decks likewise, with MoR in play you want to keep their board very clean, if you can bounce the Mother to their hands, post board you will take all your counters out expect remands (in my list this means -6 cards). Try things like this: snap on your turn on mother repeal on vial what you will see is that next turn they will play land, mother, vial, go... if they play Thalia they are asking for it but it doesn't matter you delay their clock by 2 turns... Also I have no problem concerning Thalia nor with that guy that only let's you draw one card per turn, my shell only have like 70% cantrips 6 being 1 cmc= draw (not including BS) so believe me having 5 mana is enough to play with them, and with this strategy no way they will kill you before you reach 5-7 lands.
Do I make any sense?
Ahh.. I have yet to test Dig Through Time. It looks like its best when you are already winning though. I've played Peer Through Depths as a 2-4 of for quite some time now.
Any thoughts on this? Reset + Meditate for 5. Though it doesn't look too good against control, it could be a pretty nice solution to faster aggro decks. Perhaps it could be sideboard tech for certain metagames.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
It says nonland permanents.
Any thoughts on this? Reset + Meditate for 5. Though it doesn't look too good against control, it could be a pretty nice solution to faster aggro decks. Perhaps it could be sideboard tech for certain metagames.
Deleted.
1st gz to reach 2014 and to leave 2007 behind. Honestly PTD does not have room in this deck. DTT is the greatest card that came out since snapcaster and fluster to solidarity. The rest was already replied...Ahh.. I have yet to test Dig Through Time. It looks like its best when you are already winning though. I've played Peer Through Depths as a 2-4 of for quite some time now.
Any thoughts on this? Reset + Meditate for 5. Though it doesn't look too good against control, it could be a pretty nice solution to faster aggro decks. Perhaps it could be sideboard tech for certain metagames.
This is more directed to Feline, but I suppose anyone who plays that list can respond. What do you side and when? Just the 3 Clique vs other combo decks?
Ahh... reading is tech. My bad.
DTT looks good, but it feels like Spell Pierce food and it conflicts with Snapcaster. I'll test it on Cockatrice though. Its miles better than FOI. I've been a big advocate of PTD for years now. It sets up nicely (and more consistently earlier than DTT), and it does what you want FOI or DTT for when you are going off. I SO rarely fizz when going off thanks to PTD. DTT looks good though. I think I'll wind up splitting 2/2 or 3/1, (PTD/DTT). In multiples DTT isn't so good, and it has problems with graveyard hate that PTD does not, which is particularly important if you are dealing with something like T1 Deathrite Shaman.. a problem that normally doesn't affect us while we are setting up.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Was switching Vendilion Clique and Flusterstorm directly against some decks where I could be slower or Flusterstorm wasn't that great (Like Death and Taxes)
Other times if they were fast like ANT for example, I'd keep in the Flusterstorms. Sometimes I could replace snap with Vendilion Clique as well, since against some decks they have no relevant creatures to target. Being able to flash in a Vendilion Clique against an attacking hate bear like Gaddock Teeg / Ethersworn Canonist / Meddling Mage / etc is nice too.
I was using Snap so much on everything but Snapcaster Mage that I'd consider replacing Snaps with Repeal. But there were times where the Snap during combo acted as a needed "mini ritual" to get things going. I could see someone making an argument for Repeal or Snap depending.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Hi Feline!!! you was missing...
As SCG Richmond was? Tell us a little. you changed something on your list? as were the matchs?
Richmond was the same list as GPJersey. I went 5-4 in Richmond.
The countermagic of peoples maindeck Red Blasts are a hinder for both Spiral Tide / High Tide / probably other mono blue combo decks like Omniscience. So that's one thing preventing this deck from doing a little better in my opinion.
I might cut the 2 maindeck Snaps for 2 Repeals maindeck, since I almost always use the bounce on my opponents creatures, but sometimes the Snap acts as a needed mini ritual when starting. So I don't know for sure, I could see either depending on the persons preferences.
Since Coverage is going to change next year, I now suddenly have 2 opens left to have a decent chance at camera time, so for now I'm going back to Spiral tide and attempting to get one last coverage match and one last potential top 16+ finish with the deck before the year is over.
Next year I will be even more flexible with stuff since it's just 5K's now, so I'll probably bounce between Solidarity & Spiral Tide as well as potentially other stuff if I feel comfortable with it. Prison Stax would be fun to play, or heck maybe even "Booster pack Belcher" just to have fun (Wishless Belcher, buy a booster pack for event, open it, it's your sideboard, try to top 16 with the list)
2 of my losses in Richmond, were against Burn & ANT, as soon as I realized what I was going against each of those matches, I immediately wished I still had the Counterbalance / Top plan, but obviously that is not in Reset tide. Basically, those 2 match ups are a little tougher without. I also messed up against the ANT deck one of the games, Could have Cunning Wished and Surgical Extracted a Cabal Therapy in response to an Infernal Tutor, since they couldn't go off. I didn't think about them getting me with disruption till it was too late. (They had basically lethal on board via Young Pyromancer sided in, + the tokens it created.)
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
Are there any decks you side in one of the Freezes? Maybe against Jund or Nic Fits, where Surgical and Slaughter Games could hit you Wishes.
Last edited by itrytostorm; 11-28-2014 at 09:40 PM.
@ Seraphus, why you use 3 ravenous trap in sb? what games do you use them? reanimator, ant and dredge?
you were testing Polymorphist's Jest against DnT, what you think? what better way to deal against this deck?
Relevant questions!
Rav Trap: Lands deck, ANT, Dredge, Reanimator, All spells/belcher indeed and sometimes if I won g1 vs decks with Emrakull I side in 2 of them; the why is that it kills these decks, on the contrary spot removal gravehate that removes 1 and only one card. It's much reasonable to kill an Emrakull trigger with this...
Poly: wipe away it's much better combining with other cards like rebuild,repeal, snap and echoing truth because if you have thalia on the ground poly will cost 4 + you have to combo on the turn you use it... It's too much mana intensive...
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