All B/R update speculation.

[FoolofaTook]

idk, T2 Mind twist for 3, when you are still on t1 is pretty good...

i could use it in a deck I'm working on now. t1 bayou, gsz -> dryad arbor. t2 ancient tomb -> mind twist / Natural order / GSZ

Mind Twist will go into the blue control shell and be much better there than it is anywhere else. It's just another device that will empower blue.

The way it got used in the old meta was in what we now call Esper and it sat there as a 1-of alongside Demonic Tutor as a 1-of and the blue player just waited until the mid-game and then *created* the inflection point instead of waiting for the natural progression of events. That's what would happen here. The difference is that the Esper shell would use the cantrips to go find Mind Twist by the mid-game instead of having to waste a turn tutoring for it, a tutor that almost always told the opposing player in advance that the game was going over for him next turn.

[death]

Mind Twist is mana intensive for a control deck, I would always prefer pinpoint discard. However UB(x) tempo with mana denial could find Mind Twist very useful.

[MGB]

Mind twist would be insane if they also unbanned Mana Drain at the same time.

[Dice_Box]

Mind Twist is mana intensive for a control deck, I would always prefer pinpoint discard. However UB(x) tempo with mana denial could find Mind Twist very useful.

At the point you can make use of a twist in a deck like that, you could realistically cast just about anything else and just win. Also, twist is shit in an opening 7.

[rufus]

Mind twist would be insane if they also unbanned Mana Drain at the same time.

The same is true of any number of current legacy staples.

...However UB(x) tempo with mana denial could find Mind Twist very useful.

Is it really that much better than Mind Shatter in that context? Also, win more scenario is win more.

[FoolofaTook]

Mind Twist is not about win more and it never was. It's not about fast mana and twist your opponent for 3 or 4 on the opening turn although it was played that way. What it's about is knowing that you can create an inflection point in which your opponent is prostrate for several turns and win off of that point.

It really isn't that hard to create that inflection point. The only people it will be hard against are the people who dump their hand right away who will lose against the blue shell predictably if their 4 turns don't do the job and against another list trying to do the same thing.

Even Miracles playing off the top of the library is not exempt from being twisted into dire straights in the mid-game. Yes, they can play hellbent off the top of the library and sometimes do that successfully, but when you manage to twist their hand with counters still in yours you are well ahead of the game. That's what people used Mind Twist for back in the day: get the opponent flat while you still have cards/threats and win off of that.

[Michael Keller]

At the point you can make use of a twist in a deck like that, you could realistically cast just about anything else and just win. Also, twist is shit in an opening 7.

That all depends on what deck you're running it in. Clearly, any deck that is advantageous with mana wants to get maximum value out of it, so doing something like...

Ancient Tomb
Grim Monolith
Voltaic Key
Mox Opal/Diamond
Mind Twist [x=4]

...is fairly devastating. Even Swamp, double Ritual into Twist for four is devastating. You just know budget players would eat that line of play alive, and it can actually be legitimately crushing.

[Jander78]

Mind Twist will go into the blue control shell and be much better there than it is anywhere else. It's just another device that will empower blue.

The way it got used in the old meta was in what we now call Esper and it sat there as a 1-of alongside Demonic Tutor as a 1-of and the blue player just waited until the mid-game and then *created* the inflection point instead of waiting for the natural progression of events. That's what would happen here. The difference is that the Esper shell would use the cantrips to go find Mind Twist by the mid-game instead of having to waste a turn tutoring for it, a tutor that almost always told the opposing player in advance that the game was going over for him next turn.

This only worked well mostly due to Mana Drain. It's crap in that shell without the boost Drain provides at some point in the game. If you're going to spend resources tutoring / cantriping for a bomb, it should win you the game in today's environment.

That said, I can see Mind Twist being played in Legacy. The Elves and Artifact rampping scenarios provided previously are good examples. I think it's at a good power for a decent Legacy card, not overpowered at all, but useful.

[aluisiocsantos]

Turn one > Swamp, Thoughtseize
Turn two > Ancient Tomb, Dark Ritual, Mind Twist for four.

Goodbye hand

[death]

At the point you can make use of a twist in a deck like that, you could realistically cast just about anything else and just win. Also, twist is shit in an opening 7.

True, like lay down a bunch of goyfs, bobs, delvers, a tombstalker etc.. but Mind Twist is that single card that can just seal the win.

I would think Thoughtseize, Duress, Inquisition, Therapy and Gitaxian Probe or even Hymn to Tourach are the better shit in an opening 7 because you can immediately use them.

Mind Twist is a mana sink, ritual-based decks would rather use pinpoint discard and use ritual mana for storm count. MUD would rather use its mana source to actually play win conditions and drop threats, and race you.

The Mind Twist effect is crushing but not every deck can afford to play it and it will dilute those archetypes further of threats. My guess is that UB(x) shells would get the most benefit if they unban the card and we would see anti-Brainstorm advocates come here in droves. MBC (mono black control) resurgence is expected but again it's really hard to pass up on blue dig spells.

[Lemnear]

It's so sad people have forgotten why Mind Twist landed on the Legacy banlist, which grounded on the T1/T1.5 list Connection where every card which was resticted in Vintage was automatically banned in Legacy and Mindtwist was restricted in Vintage because of the T1 blowouts it created with Artifact-fastmana long before Trinishphere had a similar effect on the game and got restricted too.

Today in Legacy the card would be limited to Elves and 12-post style decks which can empty your hand turn 3 easily. The Problem with a potential unbanning is that such blowouts are no way near the experience WotC wants their players to have and it neither adds anything other to the format in addition to those undesired, random blowouts.

[death]

Not sure why 12-post Eldrazi would run a black source when their crucial spells are green, you almost always want a green source available everytime when playing this deck (to mana ramp and drop bombs). I imagine splashing black for Mind Twist will just weaken the mana base.

Twist seems more likely to be played in some kind of UB Tezzeret/prison type decks with Monoliths. It would definitely be interesting to have Mind Twist and Treasure Cruise in the same deck list.

Mind Twist in Elves is plausible since their mana base can support it, although not tutorable. Not sure why they would want random disruption in the main deck, doing so can make them stall or slow down. As a sideboard card, maybe but I have only played against Elves, never played it myself.

[death]

Cards I wanna see unbanned in this lifetime: Mind Twist, Balance, Hermit Druid, Tinker, Memory Jar, Yawgmoth's Will.

Cards that likely will never see light of day: Necropotence (one-sided drawX), Yawgmoth's Bargain (same, and because Griselbrand exist), Oath of Druids (because Griselbrand and Emrakul).

[Megadeus]

Cards I wanna see unbanned in this lifetime: Mind Twist, Balance, Hermit Druid, Tinker, Memory Jar, Yawgmoth's Will.

Cards that likely will never see light of day: Necropotence (one-sided drawX), Yawgmoth's Bargain (same, and because Griselbrand exist), Oath of Druids (because Griselbrand and Emrakul).

Card on that list that have a realistic shot of being unbanned: Mind Twist, MAYBE Hermit Druid.

Are we still realistically saying mind twist is OP because double ritual into mind twist could be a thing?

[Darkenslight]

Card on that list that have a realistic shot of being unbanned: Mind Twist, MAYBE Hermit Druid.

Are we still realistically saying mind twist is OP because double ritual into mind twist could be a thing?

Yes and Yes. Hermit Druid will have an easy home in Oops, All Spells, and Twist is going to be difficult to play properly (as opposed to the random T1 Twist for four).

[Hopo]

Hermit Druid will have an easy home in Oops, All Spells

It's terrible in the deck. There are already two strictly better dudes available that don't care about removal spells.

[aluisiocsantos]

It's still an easier to achieve discard effect than Hymn to Tourach for not needing double black.

[Gheizen64]

H. Druid is insanely strong, don't sleep on it. If it untap it win the game, and it cost 2 mana. It would warp legacy around it and force people to run things like Lava dart and sudden shocks, and it become a game of "you have answer T1? If not you lost". There are several cards much safer on the list, including Survival if we want green cards.

[Zombie]

Druid is a funny card. You can play Druid.dec and instawin if it activates. But it's also perfectly amenable to something like the Thragtusk Standard era's Junk Reanimator - some random deck that really just plays nice standalone cards but happens to do overwhelming things if allowed. I mean, Nic Fit with a couple Reanimates, asking T2 if you really want to be irrevocably behind? When they don't really even give a shit about whether the Druid stays alive or not? Sounds fun.

[Lemnear]

It's terrible in the deck. There are already two strictly better dudes available that don't care about removal spells.

Do we need to discuss the strategic and deckbuilding related difference between being unable to run ANY lands in your deck VS. being "restricted" to non-Basics only?