[Deck] Death and Taxes

[tescrin]

I, too, have failed to see the allure of RB, but I think it is simply a catch-all for those running the Enlightened Tutor board.

I think the effect is decent, especially at zero for UR Delver (YP tokens, flipped delvers), Miracles and Chalice decks. Setting it to one is tricky but worth it vs Elves or the mirror

(I'm more of a powder keg guy myself, for Affinity/Manlands but) it's a good out to Goblins (the storm kind) since it's a 2-mana tutorable answer to the best route to victory they can take. Belcher as mentioned and random fair decks where a removal spell may be better than a dude.

[mikeshimoji]

Forgive me to change the topic all of a sudden, but I'm really debating on my final flex slots. I see sometimes that people run a singleton council's judgement main deck, would people recommend that? My meta is quite a bit midrange and fair. There are delivers but they are not dominant by any means. Or do we just want to keep with creatures? I have Mangara main, but am wondering about two slots.

[tescrin]

Forgive me to change the topic all of a sudden, but I'm really debating on my final flex slots. I see sometimes that people run a singleton council's judgement main deck, would people recommend that? My meta is quite a bit midrange and fair. There are delivers but they are not dominant by any means. Or do we just want to keep with creatures? I have Mangara main, but am wondering about two slots.

From an outsider's perspective:
Mangara >>> CJ

I'm not big on Mangara; but CJ can't be vialed, can't build a lock, is tax'd by Thalia and hits a total of what... 3 more permanents in *legacy*? (Prog, Mom targets, TNN. Mangara can just hit a sword giving Pro-White if you're dealing with that)

I just think TNN is so answerable via SoFaI and board state that CJ is a hedge against basically nothing while weakening the main deck. Myself, I'd forgo both for a beater; but if you're just looking for a Vindicate Mangara is much much more abusable (and can hit lands.. which is neat.)

[apple713]

I'm trying to improve my matchup against D&T for a rouge deck I'm working on. It's green with splash white. almost a maverick type deck.

Are there anything in those colors that really give this deck trouble?
What are the deck's top 3 bad matchups?

What i've got so far against it are.. are they even good against it?

pithing needle
tower of the magistrate
quasali pridemage
reclamation sage.

[mikeshimoji]

Went to the tourney. 147 man. I did try out the maindeck cj. It wasn't terrible, but as said and assumed by many, it didn't shine either. I think I'll relegate it to sideboard.

Went 3-4-1, lost against jund twice, gobs once and mirror. I beat uwr delver/stoneblade three times lol. Guess our deck beats those!

I think I might bring back mirran crusader or something! Jund is just a beating. And I don't even know how to beat gobs. Do we side in cataclysm??

Sorry for rambling. I just need some pointers. I know Mangara and cj is coming out. What should I add?

[Barbed Blightning]

Went to the tourney. 147 man. I did try out the maindeck cj. It wasn't terrible, but as said and assumed by many, it didn't shine either. I think I'll relegate it to sideboard.

Went 3-4-1, lost against jund twice, gobs once and mirror. I beat uwr delver/stoneblade three times lol. Guess our deck beats those!

I think I might bring back mirran crusader or something! Jund is just a beating. And I don't even know how to beat gobs. Do we side in cataclysm??

Sorry for rambling. I just need some pointers. I know Mangara and cj is coming out. What should I add?

I wouldn't hastily cut Mangara. Judgment, yes, definitely back in the board. Mangara was probably why you destroyed Blade so much.

Goblins is actually our best matchup beyond Delver. You basically drop Avenger/Brimaz, equipment and swing. All three equipment are powerhouses. Don't bother with the mana denial, nor Thalia (unless you have no other creatures to drop). Revoker is best on Vial, Krenko or Gempalm.

Boarding (based off my list):
-4 Thalia
-2 Mangara
+2 Containment Priest
+2 Canonist
+2 Gut Shot


I'd need to see your list to give better advice, especially with boarding.

[BearsandSquires]

Went 6-3 at scg open portland. 2 losses from absurd draws by opponents and then a loss to feline on hightide. Overall liked the list and might make a few changes for the invitational next week.

[Magic_Shortbus9]

Went 6-3 at scg open portland. 2 losses from absurd draws by opponents and then a loss to feline on hightide. Overall liked the list and might make a few changes for the invitational next week.

Great job. Is your lIst pretty stock?

[BearsandSquires]

Great job. Is your lIst pretty stock?

It was what bahra ran at the scg and gp except for a second brimaz over the main containment priest and a second council's judgement over the second gut shot.

[Magic_Shortbus9]

It was what bahra ran at the scg and gp except for a second brimaz over the main containment priest and a second council's judgement over the second gut shot.

Thanks

[mikeshimoji]

So wild question that might have been addressed. Since Carsten Kotter was wondering in his article why d and t didn't run green for teeg, I was doing some testing and thought, why not add a powerful creature that has utility.

I have been adding knight of the reliquary x 3 in the flex spots, pulling out Brimaz, Mangara with some success.


I know mana base becomes "weaker" etc but hear me out.

Knight is often 4/4 or higher beating the bolt test, thin our deck, fetch wasteland making it a virtual 8 of in our deck and overpowers any creatures. It can fetch Karakas, making it viable to drop to 2 and much much more.

Am I kidding myself? All other spots is usual d and t, with even 2 avenger still in there.

[ryscott85]

Has anyone experimented with religating batterskull to the sideboard? I don't know about you guys, but I almost always fetch sword or jitte, as unless I have an active mom, batter skull just doesn't seem worth it in a lot of matches; it is also horrible when you get stuck with it in your opening hand with no way to shuffle it.

Also, I know it's been discussed before and I know they are different decks, however; I was wondering how you guys felt about Maverick vs Death and Taxes in the current meta. Teeg seems really strong right now and splashing just doesn't seem worth it at the cost of the mana base...

[Luca Grease]

Has anyone experimented with religating batterskull to the sideboard? I don't know about you guys, but I almost always fetch sword or jitte, as unless I have an active mom, batter skull just doesn't seem worth it in a lot of matches; it is also horrible when you get stuck with it in your opening hand with no way to shuffle it.

Also, I know it's been discussed before and I know they are different decks, however; I was wondering how you guys felt about Maverick vs Death and Taxes in the current meta. Teeg seems really strong right now and splashing just doesn't seem worth it at the cost of the mana base...

Relegating batterskull to the board, or even cutting it completely, has and can be done. You don't get stuck with a dead card in your opener, but on the other hand 4 mystics with only 2 pieces of equipment means you will fail to search annoyingly often. Batterskull is usually the best piece of equipment in Abrupt Decay matches, which are admittedly not as common anymore, but it can still provide good value with mom or when you have multiple mystics (especially when surprise vialing in a second one, fetching batterskull, and deploying it with the one already on the battlefield). All in all I wouldn't cut it, but it's certainly a viable option.

Regarding the Maverick vs DnT debate, it's funny you mention it cause I've just been pondering this for the last couple of days. The main reason is, as you've said, Gaddock Teeg, which is incredibly positioned right now, with miracles + treasure cruise being everywhere (not to mention the fact that it shores up one of our weaker pre-board matchups in elves). However, I've come to a very different conclusion from yours: Teeg actually fits DnT better than Maverick.
The main reason is of course that it shuts down Green Sun's Zenith. Because of this, it was traditionally played as a 1-of (or even a sideboard card against Miracles and combo) in Maverick. However, more and more lists are now playing two copies because of how good it is at the moment. Couple that with the fact that you'll want to leave it in against a wider range of decks, and you're likely to experience some serious self-handicapping while running it along GSZ. Contrast that with Aether Vial and multiple copies of Karakas, which will synergize perfetctly with the legendary kithkin. Vial also adds a neat extra dimension when playing it against miracles: wait for them to reveal their terminus/entreat, and vial it in with the miracle trigger on the stack: they are now stuck with those cards in hand, which is the last place they want them to be.
Finally, as for the mana-base cost involved in splashing, I think the risk right now is minimal. You only need to run 1-2 more non-basic, non-fetchlands, so the increased vulnerability to wasteland is almost negligible, especially considering how little play that card is seeing at the moment. Blood Moon is also a lot less prevalent, and Stifle has all but disappeared from the meta. Truly, the cost of splashing in DnT has never been lower than this, nor the potential reward higher. 4 white fetches, 2 savannas, and 1 horizon canopy, along with your 4 vials, should be sufficient to ensure that you'll be able to cast Teeg. Also, splashing for green opens up some really interesting sideboard options such as Choke or Sylvan Library (also incredible against Miracles).

There is, of course, more to the DnT vs Maverick debate than Teeg and the green splash: Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay and Zealous Persecution are all very powerful cards, opening up venues of attack and defense not available to DnT, but they also come at a cost. DRS and KoTR mean you'll have to give up what is still an incredibly powerful sideboard card in Rest in Peace, and playing 3 colours means that you'll have to drop rishadan port, which is still a very potent and flexible card, especially in conjunction with Aether Vial. By the way, by swapping Vial for Zenith you will gain in consistency and avoid bad lategame topdecks, but you'll also be giving up one of the most powerful starts a fair deck can have in legacy.
Another thing worth considering is that while Maverick arguably has access to more uniformly powerful creatures in a vacuum, it also sports a much lower number of fliers, which might become a problem when dealing with Delver, TNN, or Blinkmoth Nexus.
A final point to be made in favor of Maverick is that, by being more diverse in its creature base and engine, it is inherently more resistant against certain hate cards: -1/-1 effects are not as devastating, Dread of Night isn't game over (although it's still nasty), and Null Rod doesn't shut down all of your powerful cards.


So all in all, I think both decks have their relative strenghts and weaknesses, but dismissing the idea of splashing for Teeg and some other minor goods in a DnT shell as not worth it is, in my opinion, a mistake.

[mikeshimoji]

Relegating batterskull to the board, or even cutting it completely, has and can be done. You don't get stuck with a dead card in your opener, but on the other hand 4 mystics with only 2 pieces of equipment means you will fail to search annoyingly often. Batterskull is usually the best piece of equipment in Abrupt Decay matches, which are admittedly not as common anymore, but it can still provide good value with mom or when you have multiple mystics (especially when surprise vialing in a second one, fetching batterskull, and deploying it with the one already on the battlefield). All in all I wouldn't cut it, but it's certainly a viable option.

Regarding the Maverick vs DnT debate, it's funny you mention it cause I've just been pondering this for the last couple of days. The main reason is, as you've said, Gaddock Teeg, which is incredibly positioned right now, with miracles + treasure cruise being everywhere (not to mention the fact that it shores up one of our weaker pre-board matchups in elves). However, I've come to a very different conclusion from yours: Teeg actually fits DnT better than Maverick.
The main reason is of course that it shuts down Green Sun's Zenith. Because of this, it was traditionally played as a 1-of (or even a sideboard card against Miracles and combo) in Maverick. However, more and more lists are now playing two copies because of how good it is at the moment. Couple that with the fact that you'll want to leave it in against a wider range of decks, and you're likely to experience some serious self-handicapping while running it along GSZ. Contrast that with Aether Vial and multiple copies of Karakas, which will synergize perfetctly with the legendary kithkin. Vial also adds a neat extra dimension when playing it against miracles: wait for them to reveal their terminus/entreat, and vial it in with the miracle trigger on the stack: they are now stuck with those cards in hand, which is the last place they want them to be.
Finally, as for the mana-base cost involved in splashing, I think the risk right now is minimal. You only need to run 1-2 more non-basic, non-fetchlands, so the increased vulnerability to wasteland is almost negligible, especially considering how little play that card is seeing at the moment. Blood Moon is also a lot less prevalent, and Stifle has all but disappeared from the meta. Truly, the cost of splashing in DnT has never been lower than this, nor the potential reward higher. 4 white fetches, 2 savannas, and 1 horizon canopy, along with your 4 vials, should be sufficient to ensure that you'll be able to cast Teeg. Also, splashing for green opens up some really interesting sideboard options such as Choke or Sylvan Library (also incredible against Miracles).

There is, of course, more to the DnT vs Maverick debate than Teeg and the green splash: Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay and Zealous Persecution are all very powerful cards, opening up venues of attack and defense not available to DnT, but they also come at a cost. DRS and KoTR mean you'll have to give up what is still an incredibly powerful sideboard card in Rest in Peace, and playing 3 colours means that you'll have to drop rishadan port, which is still a very potent and flexible card, especially in conjunction with Aether Vial. By the way, by swapping Vial for Zenith you will gain in consistency and avoid bad lategame topdecks, but you'll also be giving up one of the most powerful starts a fair deck can have in legacy.
Another thing worth considering is that while Maverick arguably has access to more uniformly powerful creatures in a vacuum, it also sports a much lower number of fliers, which might become a problem when dealing with Delver, TNN, or Blinkmoth Nexus.
A final point to be made in favor of Maverick is that, by being more diverse in its creature base and engine, it is inherently more resistant against certain hate cards: -1/-1 effects are not as devastating, Dread of Night isn't game over (although it's still nasty), and Null Rod doesn't shut down all of your powerful cards.


So all in all, I think both decks have their relative strenghts and weaknesses, but dismissing the idea of splashing for Teeg and some other minor goods in a DnT shell as not worth it is, in my opinion, a mistake.

I completely agree with this. Just cause d and t is a white deck, doesn't mean it cannot host another color for a splash. My testing has revealed knight of the reliquary to be a house and can be done with minimal splashing. End of turn, vial in knight And untap for an active knight is intense. D and t is a prison deck, and having a power house that can beat is something that supplies the much needed body it lacked while still helping out with the prison aspect. Knight can fetch up wastelands, horizon for can tripping and even port if we want to lock down. Seems like much positives for minor negatives. Having three drops has always been viable, and it doesn't hurt that they are humans.

[ryscott85]

Relegating batterskull to the board, or even cutting it completely, has and can be done. You don't get stuck with a dead card in your opener, but on the other hand 4 mystics with only 2 pieces of equipment means you will fail to search annoyingly often. Batterskull is usually the best piece of equipment in Abrupt Decay matches, which are admittedly not as common anymore, but it can still provide good value with mom or when you have multiple mystics (especially when surprise vialing in a second one, fetching batterskull, and deploying it with the one already on the battlefield). All in all I wouldn't cut it, but it's certainly a viable option.

Regarding the Maverick vs DnT debate, it's funny you mention it cause I've just been pondering this for the last couple of days. The main reason is, as you've said, Gaddock Teeg, which is incredibly positioned right now, with miracles + treasure cruise being everywhere (not to mention the fact that it shores up one of our weaker pre-board matchups in elves). However, I've come to a very different conclusion from yours: Teeg actually fits DnT better than Maverick.
The main reason is of course that it shuts down Green Sun's Zenith. Because of this, it was traditionally played as a 1-of (or even a sideboard card against Miracles and combo) in Maverick. However, more and more lists are now playing two copies because of how good it is at the moment. Couple that with the fact that you'll want to leave it in against a wider range of decks, and you're likely to experience some serious self-handicapping while running it along GSZ. Contrast that with Aether Vial and multiple copies of Karakas, which will synergize perfetctly with the legendary kithkin. Vial also adds a neat extra dimension when playing it against miracles: wait for them to reveal their terminus/entreat, and vial it in with the miracle trigger on the stack: they are now stuck with those cards in hand, which is the last place they want them to be.
Finally, as for the mana-base cost involved in splashing, I think the risk right now is minimal. You only need to run 1-2 more non-basic, non-fetchlands, so the increased vulnerability to wasteland is almost negligible, especially considering how little play that card is seeing at the moment. Blood Moon is also a lot less prevalent, and Stifle has all but disappeared from the meta. Truly, the cost of splashing in DnT has never been lower than this, nor the potential reward higher. 4 white fetches, 2 savannas, and 1 horizon canopy, along with your 4 vials, should be sufficient to ensure that you'll be able to cast Teeg. Also, splashing for green opens up some really interesting sideboard options such as Choke or Sylvan Library (also incredible against Miracles).

There is, of course, more to the DnT vs Maverick debate than Teeg and the green splash: Deathrite Shaman, Knight of the Reliquary, Abrupt Decay and Zealous Persecution are all very powerful cards, opening up venues of attack and defense not available to DnT, but they also come at a cost. DRS and KoTR mean you'll have to give up what is still an incredibly powerful sideboard card in Rest in Peace, and playing 3 colours means that you'll have to drop rishadan port, which is still a very potent and flexible card, especially in conjunction with Aether Vial. By the way, by swapping Vial for Zenith you will gain in consistency and avoid bad lategame topdecks, but you'll also be giving up one of the most powerful starts a fair deck can have in legacy.
Another thing worth considering is that while Maverick arguably has access to more uniformly powerful creatures in a vacuum, it also sports a much lower number of fliers, which might become a problem when dealing with Delver, TNN, or Blinkmoth Nexus.
A final point to be made in favor of Maverick is that, by being more diverse in its creature base and engine, it is inherently more resistant against certain hate cards: -1/-1 effects are not as devastating, Dread of Night isn't game over (although it's still nasty), and Null Rod doesn't shut down all of your powerful cards.


So all in all, I think both decks have their relative strenghts and weaknesses, but dismissing the idea of splashing for Teeg and some other minor goods in a DnT shell as not worth it is, in my opinion, a mistake.

Thank you for such an insightful reply!

Abrupt decay can still be problematic if they deal with the germ token and you do not have a SFM or enough mana to return/hard cast the batterskull. Also, most decks only play two equipment, (jitte and batterskull) and they tend to have way fewer creatures to equip then us, aka stone blade, UWR Delver, etc.. although if two equipment is the concern, maybe sword of light and shadow would be a good fit for a third choice, due to being able to recast SOL, MOM or any other integral creature for that specific match?

Regarding the D&T vs. Maverick idea, I have put some thought into things as well... despite the generic nature of my post. While I agree that wasteland and stifle are at an all time low right now, my concern regarding the D& T mana base was more with the deck itself. I am by no means an expert with the deck, however; (ignoring the obvious issue of opposing wastelands, in conjunction with having multiple Karakas in your opening hand) with four of each of the ports and wasteland, in conjunction with cavern of souls, I sometimes find it hard to even cast STP at one white mana relatively early in a game. Now considering a white and a green mana cost, it does seem at least semi-problematic to cast consistently, assuming we see it throughout the game with no GSZ to acquire it regularly… too bad it is not an enchantment creature. I also like the flexibility of Maverick with the abrupt decays, which would help with opposing insectile and equipment issues. I really do not know which is the correct choice for the current meta, but I think it's great that we can bounce ideas off of one another and play test things to see if we can come to a conclusion. A billion heads are definitely better then one :).. ok maybe not a billion, but however many D&T players there are out there who access this site. Also, i'd like to say thanks to all of the dedicated players who put in a crazy amount of hours play testing, (uh hum BAHRA) so that countless others can reap the rewards of a finely tuned machine!

[Luca Grease]

Thank you for such an insightful reply!

Now considering a white and a green mana cost, it does seem at least semi-problematic to cast consistently, assuming we see it throughout the game with no GSZ to acquire it regularly… too bad it is not an enchantment creature.

Just a quick comment regarding the mana issues: I've only just begun testing with it, but others have reported that with 4 wastelands, 4 ports, 4 fetches, 2 savannahs, 1 canopy, 3 karakas and 5 plains as a mana base, being able to cast teeg has not been an issue for them. I think the cavern needs to go, though, as Teeg doesn't share a creature type with the rest of the deck.

EDIT: Being able to Abrupt Decay Jitte is definitely a big plus in Maverick's favor, no question about that. However, once you start playing both decay and stp your number of noncreature spells rises significantly, making Thalia a little more symmetrical (decay at 3 mana is no longer that impressive). It also means you carry a litte extra dead weight in most combo matchups. Decisions, decisions...

[raikenxy]

Just a quick comment regarding the mana issues: I've only just begun testing with it, but others have reported that with 4 wastelands, 4 ports, 4 fetches, 2 savannahs, 1 canopy, 3 karakas and 5 plains as a mana base, being able to cast teeg has not been an issue for them. I think the cavern needs to go, though, as Teeg doesn't share a creature type with the rest of the deck.

EDIT: Being able to Abrupt Decay Jitte is definitely a big plus in Maverick's favor, no question about that. However, once you start playing both decay and stp your number of noncreature spells rises significantly, making Thalia a little more symmetrical (decay at 3 mana is no longer that impressive). It also means you carry a litte extra dead weight in most combo matchups. Decisions, decisions...

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

[mikeshimoji]

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

Well, Carsten Kotter in "Ten Cards You Should Be Playing in Legacy" kind of disagrees with you. He says that he is surprised most d and t are not running it with a splash. He thinks it's worth it, I think it is worth giving it a shot for sure. My testing has given me some hope.

[raikenxy]

Well, Carsten Kotter in "Ten Cards You Should Be Playing in Legacy" kind of disagrees with you. He says that he is surprised most d and t are not running it with a splash. He thinks it's worth it, I think it is worth giving it a shot for sure. My testing has given me some hope.

Because death and taxes players know better lol, as they actually play the deck. You'll find with enough reps you'll come to the same conclusion as everyone else in the forum. Go back and read from the original post when the first ideas of splashes were brought up... These ideas are not new. They've been thoroughly vetted before and the mono white build still stands as the most optimized and tuned list of death and taxes . Deviating from it leads you down to playing a maverick esque build or junk control which opens u up to the weaknesses of those archetypes which the mono white build does not succumb too.

[mikeshimoji]

Because death and taxes players know better lol, as they actually play the deck. You'll find with enough reps you'll come to the same conclusion as everyone else in the forum. Go back and read from the original post when the first ideas of splashes were brought up... These ideas are not new. They've been thoroughly vetted before and the mono white build still stands as the most optimized and tuned list of death and taxes . Deviating from it leads you down to playing a maverick esque build or junk control which opens u up to the weaknesses of those archetypes which the mono white build does not succumb too.

Alright. Though, mono white has plenty of weaknesses in its one toughness creatures. I guess we will agree to disagree for now and I'll let you know. And yes, I have read the discussions.