[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Luca Grease]

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

Presenting your opinion as fact does not make it such. Yes, the general consensus was that the monowhite version was the best one, but that was months ago. Things change as new cards get printed and the meta adjusts. Teeg offers a very powerful new tool, and, while some of the monowhite cards have overlapping functionality with it, none is quite as good in the current meta. Truly, I've already discussed it at lenght in my previous post.

People will always be resistant to change. We love having stable certainties, and if X has proven to be the right choice in the past, we are loathe to consider reasons why it might not be so anymore.

[nevilshute]

Presenting your opinion as fact does not make it such. Yes, the general consensus was that the monowhite version was the best one, but that was months ago. Things change as new cards get printed and the meta adjusts. Teeg offers a very powerful new tool, and, while some of the monowhite cards have overlapping functionality with it, none is quite as good in the current meta. Truly, I've already discussed it at lenght in my previous post.

People will always be resistant to change. We love having stable certainties, and if X has proven to be the right choice in the past, we are loathe to consider reasons why it might not be so anymore.

How is Teeg a new tool? People have been tinkering with green and black splashes for litterally years. So far, consensus still seems to be that the mono white version is superior. That said, hats off for people experimenting continually.

[Luca Grease]

How is Teeg a new tool? People have been tinkering with green and black splashes for litterally years. So far, consensus still seems to be that the mono white version is superior. That said, hats off for people experimenting continually.

"new" as in "not available in mono-white DnT". Also its broader usefulness is something recent that came about with new printings.

[raikenxy]

"new" as in "not available in mono-white DnT". Also its broader usefulness is something recent that came about with new printings.

If these new printings your rendering too are dig through time and treasure cruise then teeg still isn't worth it. TC is the only card in delver decks that teeg hits ... The only one. That's 4 cards at maximum. If your keeping teeg in to combat that card against an archetype death and taxes preys upon then ur mis sideboarding. dtt doesn't see anywhere near as much play as TC for me to consider running teeg when Thalia makes dig through time cost an additional mana/delve anyway.

So why would we need that card ? For miracles ? Even with teeg and GSz maverick as a deck got pushed to extinction because of the popularity of miracles and terminus which eat that deck alive, regardless of the silver bullet teeg which still gets countered by cb, force, and dies to swords just like every other targetable creature.

Teeg isn't necessary, the power and ability of dnt versus the archetypes mentioned above comes from it's ability to interact on the stack via aether vial which is not run in maverick (excluding vial maverick which is another archetype where I feel your brewing will lead you too)

[Barbed Blightning]

If these new printings your rendering too are dig through time and treasure cruise then teeg still isn't worth it. TC is the only card in delver decks that teeg hits ... The only one.

Uhhh... Force of Will?

Also, Dig and Cruise can both bury us hard. Teeg is more like Revoker than Thalia in this respect; he hits a narrow, yet otherwise problematic, selection of popular cards.

[raikenxy]

Uhhh... Force of Will?

Also, Dig and Cruise can both bury us hard. Teeg is more like Revoker than Thalia in this respect; he hits a narrow, yet otherwise problematic, selection of popular cards.

Touché on the fact check. I did forget to mention force, I'm humbled and off my apologies. I will however say force of will is such a bad card against dnt I wouldn't even consider it as something that needs to be addressed. If an opponent doesn't force of will an Aether vial the card is dead, and if they don't force of will teeg as it's played it's also dead. I'd rather stick to game plan of making the cards they draw as unplayable as possible then add unnecessary cards at the expense of the decks core functionality: a sum of all parts victory.

[Luca Grease]

We can sit and come up with abstract reasons why certain cards and deckbuilding choices might or might not be worth it, but all that speculation means very little until you put it to the test. I was a firm believer in mono-white DnT, but testing lately has convinced me that a change is needed to keep up. The truth is, Treasure Cruise is, unsurprisingly, a problem for this deck. Matchups that used to be very favorable are no longer such when the opponent can draw 3 every 3 or 4 turns. Blue decks can simply exhaust their resources by trading 1-for-1, or even 1-for-2, and then refuel, burying whatever we have left in a relentless onslaught of removal spells and threats. Even Force of Will actually becomes pretty good against DnT when you have access to multiple ancestral recalls. A well-timed Teeg can turn the situation against them: let them deplete their hand to get rid of mom, Thalia and SFM, then stick a teeg and watch their lategame plan crumble...
However, TC decks are not the real reason why I want to be splashing for Teeg right now: if that was the case, I'd just run 4 Spirits of the Labyrinth in the maindeck. Rather, it is the decks that are picking up in popularity to combat treasure cruise that make Teeg such a strong card right now, namely Miracles and combo. Storm and Elves are pretty much cold to it, but Miracles is probably the ripest target. Your argument that Teeg isn't that good against Miracles because Maverick traditionally had a bad matchup against it is flawed for more reasons than I care to list. DnT is not Maverick: we run Aether Vial, more mana denial, Phyrexian Revoker, and sometimes Mangara of Corondor (I refuse to drop the singleton copy from my mainboard). Also, Spirit of the Labyrinth wasn't around back then, and that card is pretty bad for Miracles. Our matchup against that deck is already pretty decent, but it becomes very favorable with Teeg. Their only real out to it (except from the occasional 1-of council's judgement) is Swords to Plowshares, and we have Mother of Runes and Karakas to negate that, not to mention that they'll often be forced to use it on another creature beforehand.
If you'd ever tested seriously against Miracles you'd know that the CB lock, while occasionally locking us out of games, is not very high on the list of our worries in that matchup, due to Aether Vial and Phyrexian Revoker (and, to a lesser extent, Flickerwisp). In fact, opponents will often side their CBs out against us.
It's stuff like Terminus, Jace, Entreat, Supreme Verdict, and Dig Through Time that they'll rely on against us, and Teeg effectively invalidates all of their bombs against us.
I've just tested against Miracles yesterday and I can assure you Teeg simply wins a lot of games against them, either by straight out locking them out or by forcing them to spend a lot of time and resources in getting rid of it (more than once, my opponent had to waste several turns digging for 2 copies of StP when I had Teeg+Karakas up). As an icing on the cake, the small green splash allows you to run sideboard cards that are powerhouses in themselves against Miracles, such as Sylvan Library or Choke.

If I had to stick with monowhite, I'd probably run 4 Spirits of the Labyrinth in the maindeck, as I feel that we absolutely need a consistent answer to Treasure Cruise, but a 2/2 split with Teeg seems like a much more attractive and all-around powerful alternative right now. Having something that hoses the most popular control and combo decks while still stopping Treasure Cruise just seems too good to pass up. Also, being a legendary 2/2 is pretty big in a world of forked bolts and elemental tokens...

EDIT: vial Maverick is something I have considered, but I still find myself liking 95% of the DnT shell very much. I just don't see the need for cards like Weathered Wayfarer right now (although, to be fair, Sylvan Safekeeper would probably come in pretty handy in the current meta).

[Barbed Blightning]

Touché on the fact check. I did forget to mention force, I'm humbled and off my apologies. I will however say force of will is such a bad card against dnt I wouldn't even consider it as something that needs to be addressed. If an opponent doesn't force of will an Aether vial the card is dead, and if they don't force of will teeg as it's played it's also dead. I'd rather stick to game plan of making the cards they draw as unplayable as possible then add unnecessary cards at the expense of the decks core functionality: a sum of all parts victory.

I like a good slapfight as much as any Sourcer, but I'll keep it brief: Force is still good at hitting critical spells--Swords especially. Being able to more or less guarantee that midgame removal is actually quite potent in the tempo matchup. I'm obviously not saying the Teeg is needed for that, or that stopping FoW is the reason to run him; it's just a secondary benefit of the card.

Other experienced pilots like SwordstoTimeshares advocate a light splash into Teeg because he helps in a vast number of difficult or poor matchups. Miracles, Elves, Storm, and Stoneblade each have their fair share of cards that Teeg shuts off, most of which are game-enders; this isn't something to dismiss so casually. The proposed manabase (4 fetch, 2 Savannah, 1 Canopy) doesn't hurt the deck all that much and given that we are best equipped to protect and play Teeg (Vial/Karakas, Mom, Sword of F&I, etc) of any other deck in Legacy (save for maybe Vial Mav, thanks for reminding me Luca) I think he merits testing. If I could justify the $200+ for fetches and Savannahs I would very much be on the Teeg plan.

This isn't to discount or say that Mono White is somehow inferior; it isn't. Teeg just opens up possibilities for the deck.

[Technicolor Mage]

I get the sense that some people think if we splash green that were just playing Maverick. This can't be further from the case. The splash is literally just a splash, not a complete overhaul of the deck. The mana base is slightly weaker but I feel this is offset by the reduction of Wastelands in the current meta. It's a calculated risk which I think works for DnT at this time, I can't say it will always be the case.

I know Teeg is considered by some to be "narrow" or even redundant since other cards help to do "similar" things in our deck, but I think it's a great option for fighting Treasure Cruise which is the formats darling (much the way TNN was last year). It's true hate for Treasure Cruise, let's not kid ourselves here. However, by hating out on one of the most played cards in the format, you also get to shut down win cons of other decks. All the sudden this "narrow" card doesn't appear to be all that narrow anymore.

Personally, despite Death and Taxes success the past couple of years, I feel this deck needs to continuously be looking for viable cards to test in order for the deck to remain ahead of the pack.

I think the splash is meta dependent so the obligatory YMMV is appropriate here, but if there was ever a good time to splash, that time is now.

[Luca Grease]

I get the sense that some people think if we splash green that were just playing Maverick

This x1000. Because the consensus has been for so long that DnT is better off as mono-white, and because there's a GW deck that utilizes some of the same cards, people have been conditioned to snap out "you might as well play maverick" any time splashing green is discussed. A lot of the "arguments" I read against it just look like post-hoc rationalizations people come up with because they are too lazy to seriously (re)consider the idea in light of the new legacy landscape. Most of it amounts either to "DnT already fights deck x this way, we don't need other tools, no matter how powerful and broad they are", or "matchup y is just hopeless anyway, no point in trying to fix it at the expense of other matchups (even though the tool you're suggesting does not actually make other matchups worse).

Once people come to a definitive decision (mono-white is the way to go), they really don't like having to re-evaluate constantly in the light of changing conditions, but this is a necessary process if we want to stay on top. Legacy has been experiencing massive changes in the last few years, and every time, DnT has had to adapt. First it was DRS and Abrupt Decay, then True-name Nemesis. In both cases, while the core of the deck remained intact, certain cards were trimmed down or cut altogether and new ones introduced (Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor), or old ones dusted off (Serra Avenger, SoFI). As a general rule, "new" cards take quite a bit longer to gain mainstream acceptance than old "veterans" that proved their worth in the past.
Now, it's time to adapt to Treasure Cruise: the way the meta is shifting, splashing for Teeg looks really promising to me, but, if that's not your cup of tea, you better find some alternative. Run 4 Sotl, maindeck a singleton RiP along a tutor package, whatever. But adapt you must.

[raikenxy]

This x1000. Because the consensus has been for so long that DnT is better off as mono-white, and because there's a GW deck that utilizes some of the same cards, people have been conditioned to snap out "you might as well play maverick" any time splashing green is discussed. A lot of the "arguments" I read against it just look like post-hoc rationalizations people come up with because they are too lazy to seriously (re)consider the idea in light of the new legacy landscape. Most of it amounts either to "DnT already fights deck x this way, we don't need other tools, no matter how powerful and broad they are", or "matchup y is just hopeless anyway, no point in trying to fix it at the expense of other matchups (even though the tool you're suggesting does not actually make other matchups worse).

Once people come to a definitive decision (mono-white is the way to go), they really don't like having to re-evaluate constantly in the light of changing conditions, but this is a necessary process if we want to stay on top. Legacy has been experiencing massive changes in the last few years, and every time, DnT has had to adapt. First it was DRS and Abrupt Decay, then True-name Nemesis. In both cases, while the core of the deck remained intact, certain cards were trimmed down or cut altogether and new ones introduced (Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor), or old ones dusted off (Serra Avenger, SoFI). As a general rule, "new" cards take quite a bit longer to gain mainstream acceptance than old "veterans" that proved their worth in the past.
Now, it's time to adapt to Treasure Cruise: the way the meta is shifting, splashing for Teeg looks really promising to me, but, if that's not your cup of tea, you better find some alternative. Run 4 Sotl, maindeck a singleton RiP along a tutor package, whatever. But adapt you must.

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the definitive decision was come to through testing ? You assume people who prefer the mono white list are too lazy to test the green, or too lazy to test match ups as you've more then once done. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, and I don't mean to be confrontational but I disagree with you completely. I've played this deck for years. I've experimented with splashes from black to green and it's not necessary. Ur delver with cruise is still a 90/10 match up in our favor due to the high density threats we run that they don't have enough answers to deal with. Specifically Sotl, stoneforge, Thalia, and mother of runes. Miracles will always be a match up that is play skill dependent, but if you land an Aether vial and are girly confident you'll prlly win that game with or without teeg. But please don't insult people who disagree with you by calling them lazy. A lot of us have done our hw ;) and have tested the card you feel is so promising.

[Luca Grease]

No need to rustle your jimmies pal, I hardly insulted anyone. If you're 90/10 against ur more power to you, but you'll forgive me if I consider that claim to be hurting your credibility. Peace out.

[L-Luck]

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the definitive decision was come to through testing ? You assume people who prefer the mono white list are too lazy to test the green, or too lazy to test match ups as you've more then once done. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, and I don't mean to be confrontational but I disagree with you completely. I've played this deck for years. I've experimented with splashes from black to green and it's not necessary. Ur delver with cruise is still a 90/10 match up in our favor due to the high density threats we run that they don't have enough answers to deal with. Specifically Sotl, stoneforge, Thalia, and mother of runes. Miracles will always be a match up that is play skill dependent, but if you land an Aether vial and are girly confident you'll prlly win that game with or without teeg. But please don't insult people who disagree with you by calling them lazy. A lot of us have done our hw ;) and have tested the card you feel is so promising.

Claiming matchups being 90/10 is so obviously wrong that it makes every other point of your statement at least questionable.

[index]

hey guys, is there some quick sideboarding guide for death and taxes to read ? I couldn't find one...

[from Cairo]

I feel this deck needs to continuously be looking for viable cards to test in order for the deck to remain ahead of the pack.

I think the splash is meta dependent so the obligatory YMMV is appropriate here, but if there was ever a good time to splash, that time is now.

This is definitely the take away.

I've been really happy with the light Green splash for the past couple months.

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mangara of Condor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest In Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gut Shot
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Containment Preist
1 Absolute Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura Shards

[Luca Grease]

1 Aura Shards

OMG, THANK YOU for mentioning this awesome piece of tech! I actually have one sitting in one of my old binders but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me unless I was browsing through it for some reason... Vialing in a creature in response to an attack with a jitte is like a wet dream... Which matchups would you bring this in? Stoneblade, Miracles and Shardless seem like the obvious answers (along fringe stuff like Painter, Tezzerator, Enchantress, etc), but a lot of other decks are trying to fight us with stuff like pithing needle, sulfuric vortex, null rod, and Engineered Plague, so I wonder if it's worth bringing in more often...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

When we're at old techs: is Longbow Archer good against Delver decks?

[Luca Grease]

When we're at old techs: is Longbow Archer good against Delver decks?

Good against the creature Delver of Secrets? Sure, it is.
Good against Delver decks? Not so much. We just need more impactful cards.

As much as I'd like to go old school with it, Longbow Archer is just too narrow/underpowered for the maindeck, and we have more impactful cards to put in our sideboard. Just my 2 cents.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

i'm afraid you're right. It stops Delver the creature but it does very little against Delver the deck.

[from Cairo]

OMG, THANK YOU for mentioning this awesome piece of tech! I actually have one sitting in one of my old binders but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me unless I was browsing through it for some reason... Vialing in a creature in response to an attack with a jitte is like a wet dream... Which matchups would you bring this in? Stoneblade, Miracles and Shardless seem like the obvious answers (along fringe stuff like Painter, Tezzerator, Enchantress, etc), but a lot of other decks are trying to fight us with stuff like pithing needle, sulfuric vortex, null rod, and Engineered Plague, so I wonder if it's worth bringing in more often...

I mostly am using it against Stoneforge Mystic decks. It is very good in the mirror - targeting Equipment, Revokers, Spirit of the Lab, and Aether Vial. As you mention there are a ton of fringe match ups, some where it's worth boarding the ETutor in with it. You mentioned the big ones (Miracles, Shardless, Tezz, Painter) but also - MUD or Affinity.

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword). I'm running the 2x Council's Judgment as my catch all removal to board against something like BUG Delver that might have a Null Rod - just so it could kill a Planeswalker or Creature if Null Rod wasn't a factor.