Ok, the title could use some work. Basically this has been an idea I have had for a while and lo, I had seen something close to what I wanted. The fire refueled, I went to work. I still have been unable to fit in the GSZ package I also wanted, but at this point I do feel the list has become quite solid.
So the list:
1 savannah
1 underground sea
2 tundra
3 flooded strand
2 tropical island
4 Misty rainforest
4 wasteland
1 karakas
1 island
1 forest
4 noble hierarch
3 deathrite shaman
2 Geist of saint traft
3 Rhox war monk
4 force of will
4 swords to plowshares
4 brainstorm
3 treasure cruise
1 jace, the mind sculptor
3 counterbalance
2 sensei's diving top
2 stoneforge mystic
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
1 progenitus
2 natural order
Sideboard
1 enlightened tutor
1 rest in peace
1 batterskull
1 grafdigger's cage
2 detention sphere
2 Orim's chant
2 spell pierce
1 stifle
1 zealous persecution
1 krosan grip
1 snapcaster mage
1 vendilion clique
Batterskull and stifle have proven to be unnecessary. I am actually leaning towards a dryad arbor and another natural order. I'm also a big fan of chants, but I think I'd rather have more blue or green cards. This also brings up the GoST part; while I do want to be "aggro", I also thought about trygon predator in the slot. Meddling mage was another notable card vying for a spot. Needless to say this deck is powerful and very well situated. It still needs a little tuning though. It looks like I will be off parfait still because of my new baby.
Almost forgot, this was supposed to be the deck where I unleash marrow shards onto the populace.
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Didn't think I needed this, but the comments so far suggest I should. I will apologize for the brevity of this. I want to make sure it fits.
Card choices:
noble hierarch this is a starting point. It fixes mana and acts as a threat. Also it's a lightning rod, ie it's worth a removal spell and is the beginning of being threat dense. Sacs to NO.
Deathrite shaman is the second ramper. This mini walker shouldn't need much more explanation. It also sacs to NO
Rhox war monk is one of the unusual choices. For starters it sacs to NO and pitches to FoW. Both important to the deck. Beyond that though it is hard to kill, it survives a lot of the common removal, especially currently. It can create 6 point life swings or more if not in check, but more notably it affects combat math. The lifelink is a big reason for why it is being played. We are trying to be Aggro/mid-range, this helps get us there and because of the mana dorks can be an issue as of turn 2.
Geist of saint traft is another card that may raise some eyebrows. GoST is a clock that doesn't need equipment. Also GoST doesn't die to the prevalent young pyromancer/TNN hate. Good synergy with exalted and the blade package are more benefits. A turn 2 Geist is a fast clock. Also pitches to FoW.
Force of will is easily one of the reasons to play blue. This is our game 1 control option of choice. With a high blue count this card is usually free. With the dorks it is castable fast. The downside is the card disadvantage it creates but that's balanced by not needing to counter many things on turn 1 or 2.
Swords to plowshares is easily the best removal spell printed, that's why we are going to play it. It removes problems and in a pinch will gain us life.
Brainstorm is the other reason to play blue. It does a lot, but I'll gloss over it for one point: card selection. With the multiple plans going on its brainstorm that keeps things moving. You drew progenitus, brainstorm. Counterbalance no top, brainstorm. No green guy, brainstorm. Basically brainstorm is going to help you achieve the given game plan you are on while being a part of the counter/top plan.
Treasure cruise is another questioned card. That's the beauty of midrange, this is still good here. Better in fact. While castable at 8 in the deck it will always be less. It acts as a recover button to some of our card disadvantage and otherwise just keeps the pressure coming. The deck is quite threat dense. At worst it pitches to FoW. At best it draws 3 cards.
Jace, the mind sculptor is the face of modern magic for a reason. Brainstorm number 5 is the main reason to play him as there are some cards you just don't want in hand at times. That said he is also a single card win condition. For the purpose of counterbalance he varies the decks curve. Well, really I should stop at jace. He's self explanatory.
Into the packages now
Counterbalance is the main package. While minimized it still functions and beats decks on its own. Personally it is an answer to my not wanting to play daze which I feel loses value very fast and doesn't function as well in the mid game where I want to be taking control/winning. Jace and brainstorms help fuel this engine beyond just the tops.
Stoneforge mystic is a known plan, possibly expected. That said SFM is kind of a bad card, but it also does something necessary. All she needs to do is power up a weak body. This is the most likely plan to happen which is what we want. Part of our disruption is to present a clock and SFM helps to do that. Also helps get in some 2cmc spells into the curve for counterbalance. This package is again minimized. Batterskull actually was trumped by the presence of war monk because of its in deck function and castability.
Natural order, the oops I win package. Not a main focus game 1, more of a surprise player. NO and the top package tend to be good against different things and is a reason for this minimized package. Another aspect here is the players choice. Cut counter top, focus on the speedier NO plan for example game 2. That's just a possible line. NO also helps get a few more 4cmcs into the deck and a way to beat grindstone game 1.
The brief overview.
Aggro/midrange is probably where it fits in the spectrum. Survive the first 2 turns so that the higher impact spells can take over the game. Pressure damage with some control elements for disruption. The packages help to achieve these ends with one acting as an "oops plan." Winning with an equipped body just to NO it away for progenitus is not an expected line for example unless it results in the win next turn. The deck can do one thing well easily, trying to do more is liable to not work.
And just some quick numbers for quick info purposes:
10 green creatures that sac to NO for progenitus (more by having dryad arbor in sideboard)
21 blue cards total that can pitch to a FoW (including other FoW and progenitus)
17 1cmc spells for blind flipping a counterbalance into the most common cmc. The only higher count in the deck is 0cmc
25 cards that I use to help make a cheaper treasure cruise that ignores simply playing magic (NO, brainstorm, fetch,etc)
While I could probably go into great detail on all aspects of this build, I hope this highlights some of what is going on and why cards were chosen.
Last edited by Weapon X; 12-31-2014 at 08:25 AM. Reason: Adding Info
The Parfait Meta-Game
You do not need Jace, and treasure cruises because you won't be filling the GY fast enough. Not all decks are meant to play TCsOriginally Posted by Weapon X
thats 4 cards for 3 gsz and 1 dryad arbor. (probably won't have enough for FOW)
-2 rhox war monk, +2 tnn
And if you make those changes, you probably don't want GoST, TNN does the same thing somewhat better (and neither sac to Natural Order)
I'd cut those for a couple more green creatures. 1 KoTR, 1 Pridemage seems like they'd go well with your GSZ plan. And 4 Wasteland seems a little much, could probably add another colored source.
Cool idea. I wish hierarchs weren't $60 so I could build Bant.
Jace has felt necessary. It does so much for so little and is a win condition on its own.
As for treasure cruise I can assure you that you are in error. The deck is extremely threat dense. So much so that should you end up behind you come back on your dead. There is an incredible amount of just generic graveyard filling due to playing the game. Also, this is one of the few decks that can hardcast a cruise.
Not on the TNN bandwagon. They were in before the war monk and I was disappointed to draw them. War monk does so much more for the deck and helps fill the batterskull void. GoST in fact does what I want TNN to do, and is much better at it.
I think I touched on it, but to reiterate: while I had intended to play GSZ in the deck I'm not missing it. It would also change the creature choices and I would then look to knight of the reliquary.
The Parfait Meta-Game
if its a necessity, why are you running 1.
also, what do you have that will go in the graveyard to fuel TC. You have lands, which will be eaten by your DRS and theirs. You only have 1 set of cantrips in brainstorm. And you have plows. I don't see the resilience in keeping up with TC in this deck.
Also, NO combo with no dryad arbor for an uncounterable creature.
I was looking at my promo War Monks the other day and was thinking about Bant. I'm not sold on going halfway with both the NO and the Stoneforge plans here though. I think you need to pick one or the other and run with it. Jamming either 4 NOs or 4 Mystics seems like a more consistent plan than 2 of both.
I'm running 1 because I can't run 5 brainstorms and I need access to 4cmc spells for counterbalance purposes (low probability is better then none). Because of the multiple plans contained in small packages the additional filtering helps. Also I believe a third of the deck has a cmc 1 so chalice can be an issue. And of course there is the incidental it's a win con that takes a single slot.
I hope you realize we play against an opponent as well. That should help answer your question. It isn't always a matter of what can I do, but what is my opponent doing. And also as I mentioned, I can still cast it for 8, although it will always be less, something other decks can't claim. I think the real draw to cruise here is that it negates early card disadvantage. 4 cruise is wrong here, but so is zero.
Uncounterable creature isn't important here. In fact arbor is a bit of a liability since it doesn't do anything turn 1. Land into mana dork is better especially when those dorks do more then add mana. In any case it's another tool in the box. 2 NO in a 60 deck doesn't make it a main plan, but it is available for when it is good.
@zupponn: honestly I would say try it. There is so much power behind the plans and how it affects opponents. Just as a highlight from the last tournament; I dropped an early counter top against an opponent and his deck was heavy cmc 1. He actually can't play with it in play. Game 2 I opted to focus on the NO plan and cut the counter/top with the plan that I can beat him faster then it takes to set up the lock. He didn't see any NO game 1, game 2 he focused on the lock and lost to a progenitus. The fact that you can actually move from plan to plan game 1 is where the power lies, especially when they are all individually strong plans. The fact that you can streamline game 2 is back breaking.
The Parfait Meta-Game
In the past I have played with NO RUG and NO Bant decks for some time.
There's two main things you should take into account when building such a deck:
1. The focus: what do you want to be doing with your deck?
2. Blue count for Force of Will
The latter deserves a category of its own simply because it's not that easy to keep the u-count high.
The first should not need explanation, but your list looks very diffuse so we shoud have a look.
You are trying to do the following:
(0. Play blue midrange with some dudes and counters > plan B is very often plan A in these types of decks!)
1. Play CounterTop
2. Play StoneBlade
3. Play card advantage (Cruise x3, Jace x1)
4. Play NOPRO
A few of these don't combine too well. Blade works with a sword attached to a small dude. The small dude gets sacced to Natural Order to launch Proggie, who cannot wield that sword. Additionally, CounterTop requires mana to use, while Natural Order and Jace are typically tap-out strategies. I'm not saying it's impossible to make these cards work together, but at least it's going to require some work and tuning.
NOPRO: If you play this, at least commit to it. 2x Natural Order makes it highly unlikely to actually execute. You will seldomly draw Order, and you are half as likely to draw Proggie as you are to draw Order. If 2x Order and 1x Proggie is your setup, I would advise you drop the mechanic alltogether. Against many decks it's not even that good anyway.
StoneBlade: again, you run 2x Stone, 2x Blade. Almost like you don't want to use the mechanic at all. Also, none of the cards that use this mechanic are blue.
CounterTop: This requires Top, which isn't blue either, and again this requires many slots. You now run 2x Top, 3x Balance, and as a two card combo it's not very likely to find both early game. You should probably run more of both cards, or again just drop the mechanic.
I've tried to create some lists that incorporate two out of the above three mechanics, and I run into issues with the blue count for FoW, and next to that I never manage to also include Treasure Cruise. I would suggest you choose two out of your four mechanics, and tune your list to make those two work very well. Using four mechanics just slightly will cause you to have the wrong mechanic at the wrong time, not have enough blue cards to pitch to Force and so on.
But that's just my two cents. Make of it what you will.
(PS. My NOPRO Bant list can be found in the NO RUG thread. I created an extensive post there with a table containing my lists for UGx NOPRO with all three possible splashes (white, red and black). The lists are outdated, but the deck building is valid. The focus is NOPRO, all other stuff has to work well with that mechanic, or simply gets dropped from the list. The explanation of the choices is extensive, so it might help you work on your list. I don't know how to link to the exact post, so if you want me to, just PM me explaining how that works, and I'll PM you the link - or just post it here.
From playing over the years I found that 12 blue cards are needed to accommodate FoW minimally. That count tends to start with brainstorm and FoW which is more then half of my minimum. That said, I do have 21 blue cards. I also have 10 green creatures for NO, which is sufficient, and can be grown with a dryad arbor. Card advantage helps to replace the card disadvantage of FoW and NO.
I've been a deck builder for a long time and the main thing I've noticed is that the player can determine the strength of a deck. I don't even mean on a skill level, simply how a person plays/solves problems. Yes a small guy wears a sword, so why are you sacrificing it to natural order? You can win with that guy and a sword, if you didn't have the sword then NO is probably the right play. There are a lot of mana dorks to get out counter/top fast and create the mana to use it early. This deck was designed to have a lot of play, trying to pigeon hole it is to ignore that play.
The pyromancer/blade/reanimator deck I built was sweet but ran into dead draws that cost me games on occasion. This deck is gas and situated really well right now. With a little more tweaking this is my go to deck.
The Parfait Meta-Game
12 is definitely not enough. Its 18 or go with another form of combo hate
I'll reiterate, I have 21 blue cards.
Sideboard also has more blue cards and combo hate as you put it.
The Parfait Meta-Game
Added a little bit on card choices, the packages, and some number points that seem to have been coming up.
Hope that will clear up some things and kind of show where I'm coming from.
That said I'm thinking of cutting a wasteland for a bayou. I feel like I want another black source based on how I was playing.
The Parfait Meta-Game
Update!
-3 treasure cruise
+1 bayou
+2 dig through time
Sideboard
2 detention sphere
1 grafdiggers cage
1 rest in peace
1 enlightened tutor
1 krosan grip
2 spell pierce
2 zealous persecution
1 ethersworn cannonist
1 phyrexian revoker
1 misdirection
2 orim's chant
After some testing with DTT, why was I not using it first? Probably my hoop dreams of counter topping treasure cruises. The plus of DTT is I no longer need to shoehorn in a dryad arbor and NO in the board. Dig essentially replaced that need. It also allows for a stronger board. Decay is still an option currently, but I'm trying to play UGw(x). Having a strong core allows other colours to be minimized and act as precise solutions.
The Parfait Meta-Game
Monastery Mentor may be pretty good in this deck
20 lands
14
3 drs
4 nobles
4 monastery mentor
1 dryad arbor
1 pridemage
1 rhox war monk
23
4 fow
4 brainstorm
3 gsz
2 ponder
4 swords to plowshares
3 counter balance
3 sensei's diving top
3 flex slots for some blue cards most likely. Most like 2 jaces, and maybe a scryb ranger. I dont' like going with less than 18 blue cards, but i cannot think of a slot yet
This deck has enough dorks to generate mana to abuse the sensei's diving top combo with Monastery mentor. The gsz, even at x=0, would be sufficient to get a shuffle in and generate a 1/1 with prowess. And you don't lose a spell with the gsz.
I havent played it yet, but its a general idea. I probably don't have enough blue cards for FOW
And where is the stoneblade package? Where is the NO package?
That seems fine for the classic countertop build, but that's not what this deck is. To put it another way it's like this thread is about mono red burn and you are talking about your force of wills and brainstorms in your mono blue deck. They are clearly different things and attempting to discuss them like they are not is an issue and frankly not helpful. I'd appreciate it if you at least were trying to add something constructive to the table but you are not.
The deck consists of these concepts:
1)stoneblade
2)counterbalance/top
3)natural order
Any list you wish to supply ignoring even one of those aspects is simply spam.
The Parfait Meta-Game
I'm really struggling how to see a small NO package could be better than more SFMs or True Names honestly. You do have a good mix of spells for Countertop, but is it really better than playing red?
Try this...
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Progenitus
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Natural Order
2 Ponder
2 Treasure Cruise
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
Stoneforge loses value once your equipment is play and TNN is only relevant with equipment. By playing a small NO package I have a better way to win against those same decks that are losing to TNN without the need to make TNN into a relevant threat. I am also dodging the common young pyromancer and TNN removal.
I was considering red purely for bolt as that seems to be the draw. That is as far as I went with red however.
The Parfait Meta-Game
I mean a Bant deck just did well today at the 5k, but it was more of a classic variant I guess.
Classic Bant lists look great right now. There is no doubt there. If anything I'm basically trying to design a deck that is equally well positioned and can win the mirror pre board.
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