Fate Reforged Thread

[HdH_Cthulhu]

time for more dumb sweepers, a Terminus with the ability of Vengeful Pharaoh

but you can only count on supreme verdict! Cuz if you cant resolve your sweeper you get prowned to death...

[maharis]

I hate to put myself out there like this considering cantrip.dec is a monster that absorbs even the slightest toy, but I can't see Mentor being that good. It's a Gray Ogre that requires you to have other specific cards ready to gain immediate value or untap with it to get a 1/1. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is gigantic. Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

Anyway. Going back to Outpost Siege:

Huh? How is it breakable?

I mean, it's not insane, but SDT, Scroll Rack, Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library... suddenly you get a mono-R or RG draw engine that's not GY dependent. I wouldn't overlook it. Of course the blue Siege with the similar loot ability is 2U and this came in as 3R because reasons but whatever. I think it's an underrated effect.

[death]

I can't see Mentor being that good. It's a Gray Ogre that requires you to have other specific cards ready to gain immediate value or untap with it to get a 1/1. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is gigantic. Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

You don't even need to untap to get value. Ever heard of Phyrexian mana, Force of Will or Daze? Also, 2W casting cost means he can be good in Stax.

[maharis]

You don't even need to untap to get value. Ever heard of Phyrexian mana, Force of Will or Daze? Also, 2W casting cost means he can be good in Stax.

Right, and that's fine when it's turn 2, but why have you done for the first two turns if you have probe/force + blue, 3 lands, and this guy turn 3? What has your opponent done?

I would rather be playing YP&bolt/brainstorm turn 3 than this guy and a free spell because I think the value of my preceding turns/cards in hand is better. That's all.

I do agree that it might be better in a different deck, I just don't see it as much better than currently available options in URW.

[TsumiBand]

So butthurt at Torrent Elemental.

It pretty much shits all over every single big, Red "can't block" creature, be it Two-Headed Anythings, Boldwyr Intimidators, or whatever else. Another case, among many, where Red does something and Blue does it much better.

I know this feel.

Even better -- stupid fucken guy has Flying. Oh good, asshole - just go ahead and fly and also tap everything down, because what good is evasion if it doesn't apply to all my men. Alpha alpha alpha. Oh and durdle the turtle, I get to be recast from exile. I fucking rule btw.

What's with this casting/returning from exile bullshit? I thought WotC had reservations about making exile "just another good zone to keep good cards". When there are a handful of cards that can fetch exiled things, it's cute; Wishes were cute when they could do this. Misthollow Griffin as a one-off concept, that was cute too and has never been degenerate (as far as I know of). I get that certain exceptions can exist to prove the rule, but what is the point of making exile more and more accessible, after all the changes with m10 and reinforcing the notion that "what happens in exile stays in exile"? Exile is Vegas!

That said... I kind of totally love that this makes my crappy Delve in Standard deck a lot better. :/ I don't have to deck myself anymore! I can cast Soulflayer for , give him flying and hexproof (because of that mana fixing guy) and then return my flyer to the battlefield when I'm ready to pounce more. Not bad, not bad. Could even play that new 2/2 Rogue guy that can be cast from the graveyard if I control a green or black permanent; that way with all those goofy "choose one card and put the rest in the garbage" spells I can feel more confident about choosing the noncreature cards.

The bigger scandal about Torrent Elemental is this grammatical bomb: "Activate this ability only anytime you could cast a sorcery." Not "any time" like all the others. When was this switch made and why wasn't I informed. http://magiccards.info/query?q=o%3A%...v=card&s=cname

Furthermore - Why didn't they go with Outlast's much much shorter verbiage? "Outlast only as a sorcery." Five words, as opposed to ten. Means the same thing.

I hate the wording on abilities with timing restrictions; it always eats up card space real estate and it also always comes at the end -- you know, right after the part where n00bs quit reading? I wish they'd figure out how to put the timing closer to the casting cost. Abilities are just spells that creatures can cast - they should read like the spells *players* cast. If they printed a spell with Sorcery at the bottom of the card instead of the middle you'd go "the fuck is this?", right -- I've always thought it should look more like ": - [as a sorcery] Return this card from exile to the battlefield tapped." Or like, just *some* way of indicating that the ability is "sorcery speed" closer to the cost of the ability without making those poor unfortunate new players think that they actually *are* sorceries and then getting sad that they can't Envelop an ability, or whatever. Random sidebar, thanks for coming.

[FoolofaTook]

I hate to put myself out there like this considering cantrip.dec is a monster that absorbs even the slightest toy, but I can't see Mentor being that good. It's a Gray Ogre that requires you to have other specific cards ready to gain immediate value or untap with it to get a 1/1. The difference between 2 mana and 3 mana is gigantic. Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

The blue one that is unblockable and puts the top card of your library into play as a 2/2 with Manifest is more likely to get absorbed into the blue shell. There are lots of cheap creatures that would be good to cheat into play that way with the option to reveal them instantly for their cc. No idea which of them is going to make the cut but Phyrexian Dreadnaught, Death's Shadow, Leonin Arbiter, Qasali Pridemage and Spirit of the Labyrinth are obvious places to start the search. There are probably better more synergistic cards out there also.

[rufus]

...Why is this card better than Geist of St. Traft?

Obviously, it's not categorically better, but there are many situations where he can be better than Geist of St. Traft. For example if you're playing a deck with cards that use bodies like Battle Screech and Cabal Therapy, or if you're facing a dangerous blocker.

[L-Luck]

Right, and that's fine when it's turn 2, but why have you done for the first two turns if you have probe/force + blue, 3 lands, and this guy turn 3? What has your opponent done?

I would rather be playing YP&bolt/brainstorm turn 3 than this guy and a free spell because I think the value of my preceding turns/cards in hand is better. That's all.

I do agree that it might be better in a different deck, I just don't see it as much better than currently available options in URW.

What if my turn 1 was Sensei's Divining Top, my turn 2 Counterbalance and every turn after I get a free trigger because I draw my Top while protecting my token producer?

[Memories of the Time]

Mentor+2 Sensei= Profit?

[thecrav]

Mentor+2 Sensei= Profit?

FWIW, Drew Levin tried a similar thing with Jeskai Ascendancy and said that while it's cool, the number of triggers makes it virtually unplayable online.

[Adryan]

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

[Lemnear]

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

You can look at the rarity as well here. I would not be surprised if the mana cost was a last minute adjustment here after they saw the impact of Treasure Cruise. Sadly, this pretty much guarantees that we get a Delve Ancestral/Time Walk, but have absolutely no chance at Delver-versions of iconic Black or Green cards like Demonic Tutor, Bargain, Will, Channel (Delve x lands -> add x mana of any color to your manapool), etc.

[Dice_Box]

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

From the mana drain:

Seeing as how Ancestral Recall is miles and miles beyond Time Walk in terms of power;

Wow, that's untrue. Taking extra turns is the most powerful/abusive thing you can do in the game, not card draw.

I am going to go with Steven on this one.

[aCatNamedBootsy]

You can look at the rarity as well here. I would not be surprised if the mana cost was a last minute adjustment here after they saw the impact of Treasure Cruise. Sadly, this pretty much guarantees that we get a Delve Ancestral/Time Walk, but have absolutely no chance at Delver-versions of iconic Black or Green cards like Demonic Tutor, Bargain, Will, Channel (Delve x lands -> add x mana of any color to your manapool), etc.

If there is a delve tutor it could still be uncommon or rare. There's also next set that it could be in as well.

[Lemnear]

I am going to go with Steven on this one.

The quote applies to vintage, where you have many more game actions and mana per turn available compared to Legacy and isn't set into relation with manacosts at all. Stephen's right from an ideologic point of view, but this quote lacks the context to be true for Legacy.

If extra turns in Legacy were so powerful like they are in Vintage, Temporal Mastery would have broken the format in half with Ponder, Probe, Brainstorm in the Format, like Stephen predicted and we all knew wasn't nearly the case

If there is a delve tutor it could still be uncommon or rare. There's also next set that it could be in as well.

You don't think WotC realized in the meantime, that Delve is no proper way to balance cards for the Legacy cardpool? Tombstalker proofed years ago, that Delve is pretty damn good as a mechanic and their second take shook up the format. Delve is among the top 5 of the most broken mechanics WotC ever printed and you believe that WotC will feed us with more absurd Delve variants? Forget it

[death]

I'm really curious what the people at R&D smoke... They made the Timewalk Delve spell more expensive than Treasure Cruise. Maybe they don't know that Ancestrall Recall is more powerful than Timewalk.

Yes and no. This depends on the situation and type of deck, if it's combo like storm draw 3 cards is golden when you're trying to win that same or following turn. If you have an 11/11 infect creature or if an opponent is facing lethal next turn then a Time Walk would end matters quickly. If Emrakul had draw 3 ETB effect, I would not play him in an Omniscience deck.

Generally speaking, draw 3 is more powerful since it generates more tempo than an extra turn, especially when a deck is built around tempo advantage, most decks in legacy are anyways.

Having said that, how many extra turn cards are unplayable: Final Fortune, Warrior's Oath, Time Warp, Time Stretch, Walk the Aeons, Temporal Mastery, now add Temporal Trespass on that list too.

How many draw cards are "free" or undercosted and now banned: Frantic Search, Gush, Wheel of Fortune, Windfall, Memory Jar, and Necropotence.

[Adryan]

I don't understand the point of your post. A basic Forest can also be more powerful than Ancestral Recall....

[YamiJoey]

You can look at the rarity as well here. I would not be surprised if the mana cost was a last minute adjustment here after they saw the impact of Treasure Cruise. Sadly, this pretty much guarantees that we get a Delve Ancestral/Time Walk, but have absolutely no chance at Delver-versions of iconic Black or Green cards like Demonic Tutor, Bargain, Will, Channel (Delve x lands -> add x mana of any color to your manapool), etc.

The cards have already been printed by the time the Cruise is in your hands.

[Dice_Box]

If this thing was costed equal to Cruise, I think it would be a very different conversation. It's easy to say that Draw is better than taking another turn when all the cards that let you take extra turns are junk, but that doesn't mean the effect is not the stronger of the two.

[death]

I don't understand the point of your post. A basic Forest can also be more powerful than Ancestral Recall....

I get your point.

Maybe we need something to come off the banlist that hurts Delver decks. I would suggest Vampiric Tutor.