Just let me point out in the game of Magic, there are three types of players at serious 1.5 tournaments...Originally Posted by Lanfeng
The ignorant people who havent shaved in months (even years), are ignorant about card choices, think that they have to play the best deck always, suck at the game, be extrememly arrogant, and will probably never get a girl... ever. But does their mom count?
Then there are people like us; People who beat Goblins and people who play Goblins.
But seriously, the point is, even if you hit a FoW, it really shouldnt matter. And havent your friends learned about the sheer power of Necropotence? I expect them to be terrible players, because the only time you should be bitching about Bob is when your opponent either
1. Swords him
2. Fanatic him
3. Bolt him
4. Or anything that kills Bob, like Darkblast...
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
There's an edge to playing 4c gro that most people don't see and that is, you have reach. The deck can do ridiculous things when you need it to, BOB flipping a bolt and drawing another, or those extra swords in ghastly demise. There's obviously more but I'm not going to list everything, the main advantage of 4c gro over 3c is Dark Confidant, he is the reason we splash black. Him being a psuedo cantrip, card drawing machine, making our draw engine 10x better. I've had a hard time find a Sb I personally like, I've never been a fan of Crypt, I've always liked furnace but lately I've come to the conclusion, "Why sideboard grave hate, when you can just win?" I want versatile cards in my Sb. You don't need to use graveyard hate to beat Gro. I want to be able to side almost everything in, in a large tournament. All the sideboard's I've been using I haven't been happy with. Anywho, I updated the list on the main page there's a few differances. You'll notice there's only 60 cards, I don't see a differance but whatever. I don't want to look like a dog with shit in my fur.
*sniff* I am just so proud at this moment. *sniff*
I really like the idea of 4c gro but in my limited testing the manabase has been a sever issue. I have trouble believing that wasteland doesn't completely reck the deck.
I initally looked at only the white version but I am now leaning towards the red splash to help the goblin matchup since that is probably the matchup hurt the most by the 4th color and the combo matchup is already helpped by the additional draw of confidant as well as any discard the deck might play.
I know it isn't a huge metagame concern but what about non-gro decks that rely on the graveyard (i.e. Iggy Pop and Salvagers Game specifically)? I know for Iggy Pop the counter suite and the card draw should be able to get you through the match but Salvager's seems like it would be able to force through a Gamekeeper via its discard and then you don't have an out in Swords to Plowshares or Meddling Mage.
Yay I get to quote myself!Pre board, this deck plays 6 STPs, and more bodies than the red version. Post Board, I get 10 - that's right, 10 - Swords, plus Engineered Plague. Goblins is a joke. I have my doubts about the manabase in this match, but Pithing Needle goes a long way to that end. And again, there's no reason to overextend your manabase in that match, since your curve tops out at a whopping 2 post board.
Meddling Mage's body isn't particularly impressive and can't kill piledriver.
It should also be noted that 4 of the 10 "swords" can't kill piledriver either and two others are graveyard dependant, though the yard should be large enough to kill any goblin almost always.
Perhaps more judicious use of both Pithing Needle and fetchlands on my part will improve the matchup.
How much non basic hate is too much? Does this only apply to non basic hate that isn't coming from goblins because
?Goblins is a joke
The goblin's match-up is an easy one for red gro, both pre-and post board. White thresh may have more men but they're just 2/2's, 4 of them doesn't dramatically effect the differances in the match-up at all. Red's match-up is easier due to 1R, one sided wrath. As for the manabase, I don't see it being a major issue unless your opponent is a tool and open hands 3 wasteland and a port. If you're terribly afraid or concerned about the manabase there's always sacred ground for the white version. But I don't fear wasteland unless it's recurring.
Ya see, this is the hitch for me. You're saying that the main advantage of 4c grow is dark confidant. Why can't that just be the advantage of 3c grow? The difference in cards is minute really considering the inconsistancy issues that are bound to turn up. Is STP really that much better than ghastly demise, to warrant a fourth color? How many times against goblins is your manabase going to become an issue? The question shouldn't be how much Black is helping you. It should be how much Red or White is.
Confidant in my eyes has proven itself. It should become a mainstay in the deck, but I'm really not sure about adding W for a bit of better removal/ Meddling Mage/ Enforcer.
Don't get hung up on Piledriver. He's only a 4 of. The Goblins you almost always have to deal with are Lackey, closely followed by Warchief. Both the Blue and Black 1 mana removal spells deal with both of them, and Demise kills Piledriver anyway. No, Mage can't block Piledriver. But he can block a turn 1 Lackey on the Play, and kills every goblin in the deck but Piledriver. That being said, I side Mage out.
My only loss at the D4D (that wasn't vs. Norm, aka losing to myself cause he sucks) was to Dirt, which ran STinkHole, Waste, Vindicate and Deed for Needles. If I knew I had to deal with that on a regular basis, I'd be playing a different deck. Goblins has 4-7 disruption effects, and you can play around this with conservative fetching and Pithing Needle. The manabase also leaves some room to play with the amount of basics. 1 Forest and 1 Swamp could come in for a Sea and a Strand.How much non basic hate is too much? Does this only apply to non basic hate that isn't coming from goblins because...
Well that is no surprise dirt does have a 83% match up against thresh.
From the Dirst thread
Vs. Threshold (83%):
15-3-1 - Tabernacle makes keeping creatures too costly. Actually there are a lot of things that are harsh on Threshold in here. Threshold has a very weak land supply, so you can keep him searching for more when he wants to be looking for business spells. Finally, any of the versions with red have absolutely no single card answer for creatures with a$$ > 3. This is an extremely good matchup.
You should get cancer for even thinking of opening Pandora's Box again.
~ Team Unicorn Motto
Well... let's see here; against Goblins, I dont tend to worry much about my lands, because I dont crack them hastily, unless I have to. And if they cant find an answer to Confidant, it should be getting me a land every turn. The point of Confidant is to get you more control over the game, more land, and more threats. It's the exact same Virginia Gro philosophy, but your investments are life and 1B. And if you want to see how strong Bobs are against Goblins, Wastedlife got 3 Pyroclasm against Goblins thanks to Bob's drawing and deck thinning.
Also, Swords > Ghastly Demise. Why? Because you wanna kill the following...
In no particular oder,
1. Dark Confidant
2. Withered Wretch
3. Hypnotic Specter
4. Nantuko Shade
Is that reason enough to run White as a 4th color? Because one of the deck's best match-up is Homebrew, only if you run a 4th as removal, such as Red or White. Homebrew runs out of gas very quick, and throws out a Hyppy or Confidant to stall while it finds more control. Now obviously you wouldnt let this through, so you play Bob when they're vaunerable and you blow their guys up.
Adding White/Red is the best you can do, otherwise you can run Overlord's version, which is quite solid. All you need to do with the list is add another Counterspell, as the 3/3/4 split is rather solid for a strong midgame.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
@Goblins:Is an almost autowin. I've been running the Black version now for a while, and I think out of the whole time I lost 1 match to Goblins and it I lost because I couldn't find a couple of counters for 4x Price or Progress. The 4 color version has an even easier time.
@Bob:He is a total card drawing machine that your opponent has to deal with or they ARE GOIUNG TO LOSE. As far as FOW I really don't worry about it. 1. it's only a 4 of. 2.Deck manipulation makes it so you don't flip one to often. 3. If you do flip one, then you have a Force of Will in hand. So it still works out for you.
Also to add 1 more thing about Bob. In the Thousands of games I played He has only killed me once. Thats 1 time out of thousands of games.
Quote Scrumdogg @ Amrod's:
"Didn't you know that Mike Glow invented this format?? We are all just renting it."
The EPIC Syndicate - Grindermen
Team Disquailified Poster Duey Cheatem & Howe.
I remembered when I did play you with goblins and my only out was my price of progress in my deck. Price of Progress is insane against any Gro build.
I do agree Goblins is favorable for Gro, and probably 4 color Gro, but its not an autowin for you. You may have multiple answers in your deck, but Goblins also play port and wasteland which can cause problems if drawn in multiples.
I believe its 60/40, maybe we will play and find out what the true percentages are sometime.
Later Gro fans.
~Shriek~
I've been testing the goblins match-up the last 2 days. I've played over 30 games both pre and post SB. The results were 25-7 and 28-5, So I still believe that goblins is still an amazing match-up. I don't want to hear this crap about competent players blah, blah, blah. The fact of the matter is a half retarded-crack addict could play it just as great as a pro, you play men and you swing. The results will still be the same either way.
@Troop- I don't know if you've ever noticed but the black version of threshold has a hard time against non-goblin aggro. If you look at mine and Nightmare's lists we SMASH aggro to shreds. I run 9 creature removal spells, Nightmare runs 6 because of this we have a great aggro and combo match-up. Try playing the deck and see for yourself, infact the combo match-up is still great with red. 2nd turn Dark Confidant against solidarity is huge giving you a crazy draw engine, without tapping out.
@TheNick- Please leave your comments to PM's about goblins they do not belong here. "Well this one time about 8 months ago I beat you, hense gro doesn't have an auto win, blah, blah, blah." Deck's get screwed; it happens, I was there he had 10-12 lands in play.
Edit: Not to mention he was running U/G/b.
Last edited by Bryant Cook; 08-24-2006 at 11:13 PM.
Got back from some insane testing. I got a UGwb list here. It's rather dead sexy, and it's been my little project for some time. It's a spin-off of Overlord95's Gro and ObFreely's Gro. I noticed that Obfreely's version tends to run out of gas around late game, and Overlord's has a midgame, bu doesnt seem to have stronger removal and creature quality in the mirror (Not having a flying fatty sucks).
// Lands 17
3 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tropical Island
4 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Nantuko Monastery
// Creatures 12
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Werebear
3 Dark Confidant
1 Mystic Enforcer
// Spells 32
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
3 Portent
3 Predict
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Pithing Needle
// Sideboard 15
1 Mystic Enforcer
2 Nantuko Monastery
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Jotun Grunt
3 Naturalize
3 Tivadar's Crusade
Yeah. This deck will continue what it was designed to do: Make Combo and the mirror crap their pants. I dont see a need for Meddling Mage anymore, as adding it is just overkill for me. Running Confidant is like running Mage, but you get more answers and threats. This deck is a bomb in the mirror. It should be 65/35 in your favor. It runs so many Maindecked threats and Bob just makes things deadlier.
Mana Base:
Personally, I love it! The random Monastery won me so many games. IMO, think White should be splashed soley because of Removal, Evasive Fatty, My fave manland, and Sideboard tech.
Creatures:
Standard 8 beaters, 3 Bobs, and an Enforcer. Those dont say much, but the Bobs are what makes this deck win games. So must I move on?
Cantrips:
I dont want to rely too much on Predict, but at the same time, on Bob. 17 Lands with 11 1cc cantrips make me happy with my opening hands.
Counters:
Yeah... I run 11 counters. Dazes are better than everybody thinks. A lot of people tend to underrate them. For everytime your opponent plays around Daze, it's a Time Walk on your part. Have more of them just bluffs them.
Also, 3 hard counters are sexy. They act as pseudo Time Walks or generic answer.
Removal:
4 S2Ps are nice. I dont want to have more Removal maindecked because I often get afraid that they'll become dead.
Tempo:
Pithing Needles are so godly. It's the reason why this deck perfortms better than it should against Goblins. The only match-up this card sucks in is the mirror and sometimes Solidarity.
Sideboard 15:
Extra Men:
2 Nantuko Monastery
1 Mystic Enforcer
3 Jotun Grunt
You need them in the mirror. You semi-need Grunt against Solidarity. You need more of these sexy guys against Angel Stompy.
Extra Removal:
3 Ghastly Demise
3 Tivadar's Crusade
3 Naturalize
Ghastly Demise were put in as an answer to Grunt, additional answer to Lackey, and generic removal versus non-black aggro.
Crusades are rather obvious.
We need Naturalizes.
In a combo heavy metagame, you run things like Meddling Mage, Stifle/Trickbind, and/or Duress. You can also run Pernicious Deed if you need more removal. Diabolic Edict looks sexy. I also might consider running Engineered Plague, as it's not as narrow as Crusade: you can call Beast against Aluren.
ICBE - We're totally the coolest Anti-Thesis ever.
"The Citrus-God just had a Citrus-Supernova... in your mouth."
For my first post on the Source, I'd like to present you my pet deck. It may or may not belong to this thread, but I think it is close enough to the subject even if many individual cards differ.
The goal of the deck is to abuse the best cards of 4 colors, and adapt playstyle to opponent's deck. It has answers to almost everything in the format.
It is closer in its philosophy to Fish than to Thresh, but with the green creatures to provide a clock so combo has no time to recover after disruption.
// Lands 17
1 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
4 Windswept Heath
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Tundra
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Savannah
// Creatures 14
3 Dark Confidant
3 Mother of Runes
4 Quirion Dryad
4 Tarmogoyf
// Spells 29
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Duress
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Pithing Needle
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
// Sideboard 15
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
4 Diabolic Edict
1 Mother of Runes
1 Dark Confidant
Card choices :
17 Lands
I play 9 fetches for the interaction with Brainstorm, and to get consistantly my colors in play on turn 2. The fetches are to be kept unsacrified as long as possible to dodge land destruction, to keep options opened, and in late game to shuffle back Daze and additional lands with Brainstorm.
I want 1 dual land of each combination since blue is not so dominant and so any fetch can get me any color and any dual save one.
The mana base is very stable, you have very often an Underground Sea and a Savannah or Bayou and Tundra on turn 2.
14 Creatures
3 Dark Confidant
One of the best cards in the deck. All the deck costs 1 or 2 except Deed and FOW.
However sometimes you have to Brainstorm during your upkeep to avoid too much damage against aggro or even to swords him. He also dies to your board control. I don't play 4 maindeck because of the damage he inflicts.
4 Quirion Dryad
I play 32 cards which boost it, and it sometimes attack for 5 (6 if you forced a spell) on turn 3 letting you play the aggro role. Not such a bad draw late game since you keep cards in hand quite often due to Confidant/cantrips.
4 Tarmogoyf
Another clock, the red version of the deck used Seal of Fire to boost him, now I have only Deed as enchantment and Explosives as artifact, but he's always at least 4/5.
3 Mother of Runes
Protects the good creatures from removal, answers Lackey turn 1, block tarmogoyf all day long, boosts Dryad, make it unblockable for the win, ...
29 Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Serum Visions
Interacts nicely with Dryad, fetches, Confidant, Tarmogoyf.
They also allow to play 17 lands and consistantly hit 2 lands on turn 2, keeping hands with 1 Island and 6 cards I would mulligan otherwise. Allows to run some cards in less than 4 and consistantly find them.
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Standard counter suite which protects and boosts the Dryad.
4 Duress
Needed against combo, ritual for Tarmogoyf.
4 Swords to Plowshares
Best removal in the format, answers opposing Tarmogoyfs and Lackeys.
2 Pithing Needle
Needed maindeck against Wasteland, useless against very few decks.
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Engineered Explosives
Board control package. Explosives is mainly against EtW combo, Chalice. Split enchantment/artifact for Tarmogoyf.
Sideboard
4 Blue Elemental Blast
Against goblins or burn.
2 Pithing Needle
More protection against Wasteland or troublesome cards such as Jitte.
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pernicious Deed
More board control, if the opponent can drop more permanents than you do.
4 Diabolic Edict
More creature control, mainly against Mongoose or decks with less creatures than you, so you side out board control cards.
1 Mother of Runes
1 Dark Confidant
Against some deck you want 4 of these.
You generally play the deck as Threshold or Fish, the Aggro/Control way. But it can adapt to the opponent and play board control with Deed, or Aggro with a fast Dryad/Tarmogoyf, or even pure control against combo.
Last week-end there were 2 local tournaments in Europe in which I played.
I tried TES on FNM but I'm not skilled enough with the deck and went 1-3.
I practised with my friends on Saturday and gave it up for the moment. Then I tried a UGRB deck I had been playing on MWS with some success. End of day I decided to swap red for white since I was having trouble to fight large creatures and was expecting Tarmogoyf everywhere. The Mother of Runes were added last but not tested before the tournament.
To the report ...
It was a tournament in Belgium, 34 players, 6 rounds and then top8. 1st prize was a playset of Underground Seas and a fetch land. 2nd 2 FOW and a fetch.
Round 1 - Enchantress
I start against my friend Quentin, we have practised together so we know very well our decks and know it is a good matchup for me.
Game 1 I Duress and counter all his drawers and he dies to a tarmogoyf or a dryad rather fast.
Side :
-4 Swords
-3 Mother of Runes
-1 Engineered Explosives
+4 Diabolic Edict
+1 Dark Confidant
+1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Pithing Needle
Game 2 he starts and is able to have about 10 enchantments in play by turn 4, with Confinment, 3 drawers, Seal of Cleansing, but no cloak yet. I filter with Brainstorm and Visions until I get 6 lands, play and crack Pernicious Deed. He can't recover before I kill him.
2-0
Round 2 - Aluren
He killed my friend Xavier round 1, I know he has a very fast version with Imperial Recruiter, ESG, Wall of Roots.
Game 1 he Brainstorms and Cabal Therapies me while I put a Dark Confidant and a Dryad. He is frightened to go off without enough protection on turn 6 and dies to Dryad. He could have won though since I had no more FOW.
Side :
-3 Mother of Runes
-1 Engineered Explosives
+2 Pithing Needle
+1 Pernicious Deed
+1 Dark Confidant
We exchange discard and brainstorms for a while, then I put a Needle on Cavern Harpy. He frowns...
He plays and replays several Eternal Witness, and the blue flier which unsummons one of his own creatures. I'm unable to apply much pressure since I don't have a Tarmogoyf and he can block and kill my Dryad. My Dark Confidant slowly runs me to 5 life.
Time is called and he still can't kill me with his combo. So he goes the beatdown way, getting all his creature into play with Aluren, Imperial Recruiter and the rest. I sword my Dryad EOT for 7 life, reveal FOW to Confidant, and no Pernicious Deed. He is able to bring me down to -1 on his last additional turn.
1-1, 1-0-1
Round 3 - Red Thresh
I'm paired down since he's only 1-1-0.
He's running a version with Fire/Ice, Lightning bolt, no Counterbalance engine.
We both win a very long game played mostly on card advantage. Time is called and we don't even start the third one.
Side :
+4 Diabolic Edict
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Dark Confidant
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Engineered Explosives
-1 Duress
1-1, 1-0-2
Round 4 - Red Death
I play against my friend Stephen who's 1-2-0. Again paired down ... he concedes so I have a better shot at top8 and we play for fun. I win 2-1, he is able to disrupt me a lot and destroy my lands but I manage to remove his clocks (Negator and Shade) and win because of Confidant and card advantage.
Side :
+4 Diabolic Edict
+1 Mother of Runes
+2 Pithing Needle
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Engineered Explosives
-4 Duress
2-0-2
Round 5 - Rifter
Game 1 I disrupt all his creature control and win fast with Dryad and Tarmogoyf.Game 2 lasts for 40 minutes, and takes 20 minutes during additional rounds.
He never has a Rift, but slows me down with Moat and Humility. I have to reset the board with Deed but he has another Humility to my 4 creatures. He has over 10 lands in play and is able to recur an Eternal Dragon and block them forever. Neither of us can thus attack. I have 1 more card in my deck so I try to deck him, we both stop cycling/cantripping/fetching. On the 5th additional turn he would have no cards left to draw, but shuffles back in his library his dragon with a white instant. I would have been decked on the next turn, but it ends 1-0 for me.
Side :
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Engineered Explosives
-2 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Dark Confidant
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Pernicious Deed
+2 Blue Elemental Blast
1-0, 3-0-2
Round 6 - Red Thresh with Counterbalance
Since I've been paired down twice, my resistance is quite bad and I am not able to draw into the top8 with too much confidance. I play the match.
He has 2xTop and 2xCounterbalance in his deck, with Magma Jet, Fire/Ice and Lightning bolt. Classical threshold for the rest with Mongoose, Tarmogoyf and Werebear.
The first game he stalls on land but I am unable to apply pressure and he gets a Counterbalance without Top and counters my 3 first threats on pure luck. Then with cantrips and Jet I'm locked out.
Game 2 I don't draw enough creatures to match his removal/counter wall and one Tarmogoyf sticks to kill me.
+3 Diabolic Edict
+1 Mother of Runes
+1 Dark Confidant
-2 Pithing Needle
-2 Pernicious Deed
-1 Engineered Explosives
0-2, 3-1-2
Final Result :
3-1-2, 13th on 34
With a draw on game 6 I would have made 8th and played into a top 8 composed of :
- Belcher
- UWBR landstill
- zoo
- aggro loam
- Rifter (see game 5, he finished 8th)
- Red Thresh (game 6)
- White Thresh
- Vial goblins splash White
Evolution of the deck
I will probably keep it UGBW or it would become Thresh or Fish.
I'm considering the following cards to use:
- Jitte, probably in side instead of Blue Elemental Blast. Problem is to find 6 mana to play a creature and the Jitte and equip. Could be good against slow creature decks like mirror matches.
- Meddling Mage, not sure, I have already a good matchup against fast combo and slow combo (some Aluren, Enchantress) is not so popular
- Loaming Shaman in side, problem is he costs 3
- Counterbalance/Top engine, problem is the UU cost. Could be nuts with confident though. Maybe 2 Counterbalance and 3 Top could find some room.
- Aether Vial, no idea if it would be useful
- Tormod's Crypt to slow Threshold, IGG, Ichorid combo, Cephalid Breakfast, boosts Tarmogoyf
- Trinket Mage, no more than 2 because of the cost, with the Needle/Crypt/Explosives toolbox
Cards played in Fish and Thresh I wouldn't like in the deck :
- Mongoose, Werebear : I can't reach threshold fast and green is poor with Dryad
- Jotun Grunt, not so good with Tarmogoyf
- Anything which costs more than 2 has to be seriously needed because of Confidant and the mana base
Matchups
Here is how I see the most common matchups. If you play the deck, I would be glad to get your feedback since I have not so many different decks and partners, and I haven't practised against all the field yet.
If you want to test on MWS, please PM or contact me on Skype, my pseudo is always tyrcho everywhere.
Goblins
I have not yet tested it, but I think it is one of the worst matchups. You have several answers to lackey (Mother, counter, Swords, BEB post-side) and to Vial (Duress on play, counter, Needle, Explosives) but they will overwhelm you with threats and land disruption.
Play very conservatively, keeping a hand with more lands than usual and keep fetch lands and cantrips open as long as possible. Needle (Vial, Wasteland, Port, Siege-gang) and BEB should help.
Side:
+2 Needle
+4 BEB
+1 Deed
+1 Mother
-2 Confidant
-4 Duress
Threshold UGr, UGw or UG or Fish
It plays a lot like the mirror match except you have Confidant to outdraw them. You are the control player, try to protect your creatures with counter and Mother of Runes.
I side out board control (Deed, Explosives), Needle (except against the new decks with Top and Wasteland) and side in Mother, Confidant, Edict, possibly BEB against red. May side out FOW since it gives card disadvantage and hurts with 4 Confidants.
I think it's about even since the decks are not so different. They are more consistent but you'll have slightly more draw if you can protect Confidant, and a Dryad kept unchecked will own all except a Swords to Plowshares.
Fast Combo (TES, Belcher, Solidarity)
I tend to draw a lot of Duresses, Dazes, FOW which usually slows them enough for you to put a clock (Tarmogoyf, Dryad) online. Dark Confidant and cantrips help to sculpt a good control hand. The lack of stifle hurts against EtW, you'll need an Explosives to stop them.
Side in confidant, Explosives against EtW, Needle against belcher for Mother of runes, Deed. Meddling Mage should be in the side if you expect lots of Solidarity. You can also needle the U/W fetch.
I have not tested much against these specific combos, but the general combo matchup is generally favorable. I'm worried about Solidarity though.
B/x aggro control
As long as you are able to deal with their (usually lone) threat (Shade, Negator, Specter) with a Swords, you should have some time to recover from the initial disruption with your drawers. Worst case is if you have no lands left and they kept a Specter online.
I side out board control and some Duress or Dryad for Edict, Mother, Confidant, Needle (Shade, Wasteland, possibly Jitte). I don't use BEB against Red Death.
You need to use a counter or Duress for Dystopia if you sided out the Explosives and Deed, or play only one threat / Mother.
I'd call it sligthly favorable.
Stax
Not tested, but you need to protect from cards like Trinisphere, Chalice, Wasteland recursion, Smokestack. Probably quite defavorable since they will lock you out. I need a plan against these decks.
Loam Control (43 Lands, Confinment)
Not tested either. Wasteland recursion will really hurt before you get a Needle. Confinment needs to be answered with a counter or board control (or Duressed away). I honetly have no idea who is favored.
Random aggro
A very fast aggro such as Stompy is probably difficult to stop since Deed / Explosives will be a turn too slow, but against others such as Zoo or White Weenie they are golden.
Burn is probably faster than you too except if you can get a fast Dryad.
Thanks in advance for your feedback !
Last edited by tyrcho; 08-24-2007 at 09:43 AM.
Be a man, play 5c thresh.
Mana: 20
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
3 Underground Sea
Draw: 11
3 Portent
4 Brainstorm
2 Top
2 Serum Visions
Control: 14
3 StP
3 Bolt
4 Force
4 Daze
Creatures: 15
4 Nimble Mongoose/Where?bear
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
4 Serendib Efreet
Sideboard: 15
4 Coalition Victory
4 Ordered Migration
4 Last Stand
3 Sacred Ground
I'll pay for anyone's entry fee if they play this at a tournament I attend.
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Team Brown & Team Unicorn. Does that make me a Brown Unicorn?
Send me the deck and sign me up! G2 and g3, prepare as I win with Coalition Victory... once I, um, draw a ... red creature.
I had a long post written for this, then I misclicked and lost it. Sigh. You'll have to be content with the short version.
Tyrcho, I don't like the fish-y direction you have taken Threshold towards. The strength of Thresh is that, despite being a 17-lands, 3/4-colour deck, it has the most consistency of any deck pretty much ever built for Magic: the Gathering. When was the last time you heard a Thresh player say "I just drew crap"?
By cutting down on the library manipulation, on the countermagic, and adding conditional cards like Mother of Runes and Duress that will be amazing in Round 1 and suck bollocks on Round 2, you throw away the deck's real power and end up with a pile of powerful but random cards.
You don't need blowouts with this deck. You just need to have a viable game plan at all times. Sure, Mother of Runes + Dark Confidant is a huge card advantage engine... but assuming your game plan is to amass a lot of Bob-draws (and it won't always be), it would have been enough to cantrip into a couple of counterspells and use those to protect the Confidant. Turn 1 Duress is a better play against combo than Turn 1 Portent hoping to find a Fow/Daze/EE... but you'll curse every time your opponent reveals four Goblins, or three irrelevant enchantments and an Argothian Enchantress.
The very purpose of going up to four colours in Threshold is to have access to reliable maindeck tools and/or powerful sideboard options. My UGwb list currently has the following advantages over my UGb one: Swords to Plowshares instead of Ghastly Demise, Mystic Enforcer instead of Tombstalker (both are pretty much straight improvements), and access to sideboard Armageddons. That's all that is really needed, IMO.
Hope that gave you some food for thought.
PS: Play four Confidants.
YOU'RE GIVING ME A TIME MACHINE IN ORDER TO TREAT MY SLEEP DISORDER.
Nightmare and wasted I know I'm new here but I was curious as to why you are playing meddling mage main deck. I know he add's to your creature count but shouldn't he be in the sb because your kidnly guessing blindly as to what your opponet is playing in bigger tournys.
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