All B/R update speculation.

[sdematt]

Just a question:

I know some people play around with alternate formats, trying out banned cards in the format to see if they're viable, etc. Has anyone actually tried to run a tournament with Brainstorm not being a legal card? I'm just wondering if it has actually been done and if there were any results to share. If not, no worries, I'm just generally curious.

-Matt

[Lemnear]

Just a question:

I know some people play around with alternate formats, trying out banned cards in the format to see if they're viable, etc. Has anyone actually tried to run a tournament with Brainstorm not being a legal card? I'm just wondering if it has actually been done and if there were any results to share. If not, no worries, I'm just generally curious.

-Matt

Never heared of an attempt, but it would be indeed interresting ... not particular because of the outcome, but to see if people are interrested in the idea itself or, simply, if players would even bother to show up

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Lemnear, do you know what's your main trouble? You think that you not only have some God-given knowledge of format and MtG in general, but you also think that you're discussing things, while in fact you're agitating. You're the exact example of Magic nerd I always tried to avoid in my life.

[Vicar in a tutu]

I always thought the main weakness of The Source was hyperbole and personal attacks, making it (at times) seem like quite a hostile environment. I'm really looking forward to the next B&R-announcement. My prediction is that no cards will be banned in legacy, but that one card will be unbanned.

[Lemnear]

Lemnear, do you know what's your main trouble? You think that you not only have some God-given knowledge of format and MtG in general, but you also think that you're discussing things, while in fact you're agitating. You're the exact example of Magic nerd I always tried to avoid in my life.

Then stick your ad homien (and complaints about those) to yourself and avoid these "Magic nerds" by stop visiting the forum or, if it saves you from a heart attack, feel free to block me and others. ;)

I still can't remember a time we had like 10 decks to beat, because the DtB section is a numbers game in essence to give players a guideline for the most common AND successful decks for their testing. This list needs to be kept short, but we can sure expand it to the top 10/20 decks played as well, except that it isn't really helpful for focussing your pre-tournament tests

[Barook]

re: stp, it's not a matter of likelihood relative to one another, brainstorm vs pyroblast. the 9%-14% difference doens't change the similar dynamics. stp is a cheap, fast, asymmetrical answer to a likely threat, so is pyroblast, why is one ok and not the other? Further, please try and avoid fallacious arguments of implying absolutes like the idea that brainstorm is omnipresent to remove dead cards.

They don't always have Brainstorm, but also have tools to likely find that at a point. And I wouldn't marginalize the percentage - that's at least one more deck out of 10 where it becomes relevant.

It does obviously tell nothing about Brainstorm. It just tells me that you are just as uncreative and powercreep loving as WotC. Why denial instead of a punisher machanic? 1R - Flash - 2/1 - when [name] enters the battlefield deal damage to target player equally to cards that player drew that turn.

Yeah, go try undermine the fact that Jund with MD Blasts just won a big tournament because of all those "dead draws" it can avoid with cards like SDT, Sylvan Library or Mirri's Guile.

That card would be great to hose Griselbrand, Glimpse chains, etc, but Brainstorm? Leaving two mana open to bolt someone's face for playing a one mana instant would seem kinda subpar if that was supposed to be its job.

If Jund with Blasts was so great, then why wouldn't it perform better than? It doesn't place on MODO at all and looking at the TC database, it's somewhere in the middle for November and December. The problem with said green library manipulation is it can't trade off the dead cards already drawn and that they're bad in multiples when drawn naturally, unlike blue cantrips. Whether or not SDT fits Jund is another question.

[Ingo]

Funnily, you consider "creatures" the defining core of most Legacy decks so that MD Plows are acceptable. What if I consider "blue" the defining core of most Legacy decks so that MB Pyroblasts are acceptable?

Comparing swords to plowshares with MB Pyroblasts isn't a fair comparison. Magic was created and pushed to be a creaturebased game, and the percentage of decks using creatures to win reflects this. Even many (most?) combodecks use creatures as a wincon. Swords is the best universal answer to the cardtype creature (which harbors a large and versatile pool of creatures when you look at established decks)

In comparison, there is no defining color blue (as there is a defining cardtype creatures), but a defining blue core (existing of a narrow cardpool), with a huge combined powerlevel, and insertable in almost any deck. MB Pyroblasts are a specific answer to this narrow blue shell dominance, which differs from swords being a universal answer to a huge variance of creatures. In short, MD Swords isn't the symptom of the dominance of a tiny selection of (in this case 'creature') cards, but MD Pyroblasts are.

In Vintage there is a core of cards around the Power 9, which you will see again and again and limits variance of decks. Or decks build in Null Rod, to prey on this dominant core. I think Legacy should be different from Vintage in attempting to avoid such a dominant core, avoid having REB's maindecked, like Vintage has Null Rod's maindecked.

[YamiJoey]

It's about percentages. If I expect to play 10 rounds and 7 of them be against decks where Krosan Grip is good, I will main deck Krosan Grip. If it's expected that Serra Angel will be good, I will play Serra Angel. Pyro Blast, Swords to Plowshares, hell, even Force of Will, all fall into this category. If I feel that my win percentage goes up by not playinv the widely accepted most defining card in the format since Legacy was called Legacy, THEN I WILL THROW THEM IN THE BIN FOR THE DAY.

EDIT: And 'playing to win' is not 'playing competatively'. Competative play involves correct card selection, as well as play, and the time you put in prior to the tournament. It's an overall concept, not just trying to beat your opponents one at a time.

[Lemnear]

That card would be great to hose Griselbrand, Glimpse chains, etc, but Brainstorm? Leaving two mana open to bolt someone's face for playing a one mana instant would seem kinda subpar if that was supposed to be its job.

What do you want? If your opponent is using Brainstorm to fix his crappy keep, you Bolt his/her face for 4 eot and swing back for two more damage in your turn. That's 6 fucking damage plus a 2/1 in play for 1R and a single card and you call that "subpar" especially with the wider application given to punish Griselbrand, Enter the Infinite, High Tide, Glimpse, Visionary, Treasure Cruise, etc. all attached to a maindeckable card?

[testing32]

Looking at the top decks for December it looks like all 5 of the top decks are UR + maybe white. They all share FoW, Brainstorm and Ponder. Nice format.

[Ingo]

It's about percentages.

I agree. And maindecking blasts is an excellent call for some decks at this time.

If you count the tempodecks of the top 16 of the last SCG (decks exploiting cantripping with Treasure Cruise and Delver and/or pyromancer) you have 7 decks.
There were 2 combodecks with the blue shell (ascendency and Onmitell)
There were 4 decks with blue, but without TC / DTT.
And there were 3 nonblue decks: Lands, D&T en pox, and the latter dropped hymns for 3 maindeck Chains of Mephistopheles (which is clearly a very good choice to do, on par with the maindecking of blasts).
Ofcourse this is only one SCG, but such representation isn't extraordinary, I would say it's quite normal.

The real question is though why these percentages are what they are, and if this is a problem for the format. I think it is, but this is my personal opinion. I would also find an environment where maindecking 4 Krosan Grips, Surgical extraction, or other narrow cards, problematic as well, because they reveal a format where there's a loss in variety.

I don't want a ban on any of the blue shell cards. But the combined power of the shell is problematic for me, not because I envy it's power (I play RG lands now and really enjoy the power, cardadvantage and uniqueness of this deck) but because I do not enjoy playing against variations on the same blue shell over and over again.

[Quasim0ff]

Looking at the top decks for December it looks like all 5 of the top decks are UR + maybe white. They all share FoW, Brainstorm and Ponder. Nice format.

Colours aren't equal. If you want to, play mono-red painter and rip URx decks a new one.

[testing32]

Colours aren't equal. If you want to, play mono-red painter and rip URx decks a new one.

There is a reason that painter isn't winning.

Lets look at our most played cards for December.

http://tcdecks.net/mostplayedcards.p...s=12&anio=2014

TC is 12th, Delver is 14th. They are really oppressive. Pyroblast shows up before a single black or green card.

[CorwinB]

The real question is though why these percentages are what they are, and if this is a problem for the format. I think it is, but this is my personal opinion. I would also find an environment where maindecking 4 Krosan Grips, Surgical extraction, or other narrow cards, problematic as well, because they reveal a format where there's a loss in variety.

If the DtB section was for example Counter-Top (Miracles or other), Enchantress, Tezzeret Control and Affinity, maindecking Krosan Grip would probably be a decent choice, but the field would be quite varied, with several interesting and very different matchups.

[Ingo]

If the DtB section was for example Counter-Top (Miracles or other), Enchantress, Tezzeret Control and Affinity, maindecking Krosan Grip would probably be a decent choice, but the field would be quite varied, with several interesting and very different matchups.

I'll rephrase then (I agree with your example, but it kinda misses my point). I would dislike an environment where Krosan Grip would be maindecked for answering a limited shell of cards that is overpowered and rather easily introduced in a large number of decks, making all these decks resemble eachother because they share about 20 spells. That's not the case with your examples, as they all vary a lot in playstyle and cardchoices, and would indeed be interesting and varied to play against.

[Lemnear]

I'll rephrase then (I agree with your example, but it kinda misses my point). I would dislike an environment where Krosan Grip would be maindecked for answering a limited shell of cards that is overpowered and rather easily introduced in a large number of decks, making all these decks resemble eachother because they share about 20 spells. That's not the case with your examples, as they all vary a lot in playstyle and cardchoices, and would indeed be interesting and varied to play against.

And yet again you fail to realize that Pyroblast is not played because of countering Brainstorm, Ponder or FoW, but for dealing with TNN, S&T, Treasure Cruise and Counterbalance

[Ingo]

And yet again you fail to realize that Pyroblast is not played because of countering Brainstorm, Ponder or FoW, but for dealing with TNN, S&T, Treasure Cruise and Counterbalance

Actually, I totally agree with you. They're not played against the cantrips, but to counter/destroy whatever (limited) resources these cantrips go for. Never said what you describe above, so I don't quite understand your post (nor your tone).

[Megadeus]

Regardless of why blast it's being played main deck, the point is that the top decks, all five of them right now, share so many similar cards that every game turns out to be the same. The format is stale. Blast answers allall of those things yes, but what card ties it all together and makes all of these cards desirable to be played?

[btm10]

I'll rephrase then (I agree with your example, but it kinda misses my point). I would dislike an environment where Krosan Grip would be maindecked for answering a limited shell of cards that is overpowered and rather easily introduced in a large number of decks, making all these decks resemble eachother because they share about 20 spells. That's not the case with your examples, as they all vary a lot in playstyle and cardchoices, and would indeed be interesting and varied to play against.

I get your point, but having played a bumch or URx decks recently to try and find the one I like best, the blasts are mostly there to fight over Treasure Cruise and to deal with particular problems like TNN and Counterbalance. It's not "everyone's playing blue so I'll maindeck REBs", it's "games come down to who gets to Cruise more, and this is a one-mana hard counter for Cruise" coupled with "my deck of 1 CMC spells gets wrecked by Counterbalance". This is (part of) why we're even seeing SB Hydroblasts in people's boards now.

[death]

Regardless of why blast it's being played main deck, the point is that the top decks, all five of them right now, share so many similar cards that every game turns out to be the same. The format is stale. Blast answers allall of those things yes, but what card ties it all together and makes all of these cards desirable to be played?

Brainstorm is the kill switch to many legacy archetypes. Read my post on the previous page.

Ban Ponder and Treasure Cruise, it's a win-win scenario for both sides.