All B/R update speculation.

[Teveshszat]

Why not making it simple and demanding computer written decklists for greater events. By now anyone who can play eternal should be able to print some decklist
or provide a pdf of it. Than you don´t have the scanning problem.

[Ellomdian]

I wonder if some OCR software is sophisticated enough to be able to scan handwritten decklists in and get some kind of reasonable data?

Have you ever SEEN the average hand-written MTG decklist? I know Doctors with better handwriting than most players...

[sjmcc13]

Why not making it simple and demanding computer written decklists for greater events. By now anyone who can play eternal should be able to print some decklist
or provide a pdf of it. Than you don´t have the scanning problem.

Considering the prevalence of smart phones and tablets, a digital submission should be easy to enact. give everyone a random code at registration, and they have to email a file with that code as part of the name to a address specifically set up to receive the deck lists.
Or make an app to key in your deck list, and have it upload the list using your DCI # and a registration code for the event.

[Lemnear]

Have you ever SEEN the average hand-written MTG decklist? I know Doctors with better handwriting than most players...

You've never seen an architects handwriting then ...

[danyul]

I don't closely follow this thread so forgive me for talking out of my ass for a moment.

I agree that all this back and forth endless BS BS (Brainstorm BullShit, y'all can have that one for free) can be solved with more accurate metagame data. However, WOTC has actively attempted to squash the acquisition and dissemination of said data. They do not want the format to be solved and the metagame influences of those old TMI Hatfield articles were, I guess, too tangible for WOTC's tastes. If grassroots efforts to collect data were stronger then, yes, we might have a much clearer picture of the actual influences of Blue's dominance. We could also tell whether or not such a phenomenon is real or imagined.

On the other hand, some of the suggestions you guys are spitting out are just downright impractical. It's clear that none of you have experience running a real event, and by "real" I mean 100+ players. SCG events are run very, very well. But even those events are difficult to pull off and require insane amounts of coordination between several teams of judges. You all are discussing a significant overhaul of the status quo in order to facilitate information gathering of a nature that WOTC discourages. It's just a little wishy washy. Judges have plenty on their plates as it is. And players are dumb. Ask any judge how many times they issue game losses for deck reg errors in a single event. That's just pen, paper, and brainpower. Now add in all this digital thumb twiddling and there's no way an event could be run cleanly.

What if a player has a dumb phone? What if a player's phone died? Or they lost it in a bar the night before? What if reception in the venue is spotty? (That's usually the case anyway in my experience). You can't run a large event and expect everybody there to adhere to your NWO method of collecting decklists.

To some degree, WOTC encourages these never-ending BS BS discussions because they don't want the data to be collected. And outside of some schlub at SCG who is paid to transcribe hundreds of decklists in order to post information that WOTC wants hidden, it would take an insane amount of coordination and effort (unpaid in both cases) to get this info in a decipherable state. And even then, keeping up with those efforts in multiple events, spanning different time zones, countries, and nerd circles, is just mind-boggling.

This is asking a ton. But at some point y'all have to just say Fuck It. It is what it is. We just gotta play the cards we are dealt, figuratively and literally. Maybe I'm being a nihilist or whatever. But shouldn't y'all be working or something instead of going back and forth in a pointless struggle between wanting something you can't have (data/bannings) and having something you don't want (a weird amorphous blob of a metagame that will forever be half-solved.)?

Not knowing is half the fun. That applies to the rest of the universe, and Legacy too. You just do the best you can do with the 75 you showed up with.

[mlschuma]

What if a player has a dumb phone? What if a player's phone died? Or they lost it in a bar the night before? What if reception in the venue is spotty? (That's usually the case anyway in my experience). You can't run a large event and expect everybody there to adhere to your NWO method of collecting decklists.

If you're sporting 2100$ worth of cardboard, at an event that requires travel and/or work leave, it's not that unreasonable of an expectation.

Make it an optional feature, and if 70% of players choose to do electronic submissions than that's 70% less physical lists that would need to be typed into a system. Create an app that you link your DCI number to an account, give TO's event codes for people to register, and the whole process becomes more streamlined and data-collection much easier. Whether Wizards wants that kind of info public is one thing, but it would save a ton of man-hours and create a more streamlined infrastructure. Besides, the metric crap-ton of marketing/customer/trend data that players would be putting directly into a Wizard's system, makes it seem like a no-brainer.

[danyul]

That makes a ton of sense and would make life way better for all of us if it was implemented. And that's also why it will never happen. See: MTGO, Wizards Event Reporter. Those products are horrible and continue to be used. From what I've heard, judges have even formulated their own event reporter, presented it to WOTC, and had it turned down in favor of continuing to use WER. The tournament system we have works, but just barely. And that's the WOTC motto. Trying to streamline it is just...a Herculean task.

Also, you would be surprised at how many people at Legacy events are rocking dumb phones, non-functional phones, or just shitty phones that can't run the latest apps. Have you seen Android OS fragmentation charts? App consistency is a nightmare. Developing apps for iOS and Android concurrently is a tech nightmare. And for free? Who will fund that?

Pen and paper will always have to be the backbone of these events.

[Barook]

Besides, the metric crap-ton of marketing/customer/trend data that players would be putting directly into a Wizard's system, makes it seem like a no-brainer.

Wizards' digital department sucks so much at technology that it would almost comical if it wasn't so sad.

Even if they did something like this, chances are it would suck so much that it would be infuriating.

[thecrav]

I can't blame TOs for not doing it. I was at at NYSE Open and saw them typing decklists the whole day and they didn't even finish all of them. That was only 92 decklists, I cringe at the idea of typing 300+ for each event at Eternal Weekend.

I know Jaco goes out of his way to get copies of the decklists at most Vintage events he goes to. I'd bet there's someone who'd be willing to pay the relatively small cost of having those shipped from every big-ish event to post by hand. Being the first person to have those decklists would probably be enough to start your own money-making MTG site.

[H]

I know Jaco goes out of his way to get copies of the decklists at most Vintage events he goes to. I'd bet there's someone who'd be willing to pay the relatively small cost of having those shipped from every big-ish event to post by hand. Being the first person to have those decklists would probably be enough to start your own money-making MTG site.

I'd almost be willing to do it, but I am really short on time right now, due to real life stuff, plus I really don't have the requisite contacts, as I only know a couple TOs and they mainly run Vintage events in the North East.

[Aggro_zombies]

Lay off the haterade, folks. This thread is for discussion, not rants.

[Fatal]

Good point about input data - we live in digital world, from my experience of been TO for 4 years (not too big community - about 20+ ppl on each tournament) I waste a lot of time rewriting decklists from sheet of paper to digital data. Few ppl had decklists printed from PC, so I started to ask them to send them on email - that helps me a lot, afterwards I asked other ppl do they can send decklists before tournament to done a lot of work - it was really very helpful. Even if they change something in last minutes (for example SB - they fix just few cards, so I just change some of them by hand).

Normally I'm working as buisness and sysems analytics - gathering data is very important - DCI reporter should have module for decklists conneted with gatherer that would change a lot. Simple data sended even via email could fix all the problems, just poper tag/name with simple content of the mail so you could import data from your mailbox. It's the easiest way to resolve data gathering.

That solution would also bring big data to WotC about the played cards which could be really best way to analysis for R&D team and also B&R. I'm quite suprised that WotC never do it.

[Dice_Box]

Good point about input data - we live in digital world, from my experience of been TO for 4 years (not too big community - about 20+ ppl on each tournament) I waste a lot of time rewriting decklists from sheet of paper to digital data. Few ppl had decklists printed from PC, so I started to ask them to send them on email - that helps me a lot, afterwards I asked other ppl do they can send decklists before tournament to done a lot of work - it was really very helpful. Even if they change something in last minutes (for example SB - they fix just few cards, so I just change some of them by hand).

Normally I'm working as buisness and sysems analytics - gathering data is very important - DCI reporter should have module for decklists conneted with gatherer that would change a lot. Simple data sended even via email could fix all the problems, just poper tag/name with simple content of the mail so you could import data from your mailbox. It's the easiest way to resolve data gathering.

That solution would also bring big data to WotC about the played cards which could be really best way to analysis for R&D team and also B&R. I'm quite suprised that WotC never do it.

I am not sure what they would really gain themselves from the act. The care only about Standard and that format is normally quite limited in its decks and options. When it comes to formats like Legacy and Vintage, they have shown they could care less what really happens and thus the small amount of work needed to do this is not worth their time.

Honestly, I think they could release the full stats on Legacy events held online without any effort at all, but I know they would not.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

Wizards' digital department sucks so much at technology that it would almost comical if it wasn't so sad.

Even if they did something like this, chances are it would suck so much that it would be infuriating.

This is because WotC is well known for being cheap as hell and paying their employees crap. There's a reason that most people who go there to do game design leave soon after to other companies. You've got to LOVE Magic more than you enjoy getting paid a decent wage to stay there for any significant amount of time.

[Zombie]

This is because WotC is well known for being cheap as hell and paying their employees crap. There's a reason that most people who go there to do game design leave soon after to other companies. You've got to LOVE Magic more than you enjoy getting paid a decent wage to stay there for any significant amount of time.

And even then, if you like programming, don't care about money that much and love Magic... do you want to actually work with the POS that's MTGO, that from what I've heard still uses some late 90's era AJAX kludge to work? That's gonna shatter the soul of anyone who cares about doing things well.

[Barook]

And even then, if you like programming, don't care about money that much and love Magic... do you want to actually work with the POS that's MTGO, that from what I've heard still uses some late 90's era AJAX kludge to work? That's gonna shatter the soul of anyone who cares about doing things well.

A few months ago, there was a blog entry of some MODO guy who quit Wizards because he tried to be productive, but they wouldn't let him and moved him to DotP instead.

It's a miracle how much money Wizard can make despite their horrible, unproductive environment. I'll cheer the day Hasbro decides to finally purge all these useless fucks.

[Fatal]

If WotC ignores chances maybe some shops would be more interesting on playable cards with real data - software like:
1 server imap + logical data update each day from mails with proper name/tags
1 function for validaction content via http (to keep data clean)
1 function for results (sum up data and report)
1 function for cards recognize (already written via gatherer and some other bases)

lets sum them up how much costs:

nonfunctional costs:
1 imap server + 1 database (oracle probably would be needed) - that is quite costy also configuration - lets say 10 mandays not more for sure + cost of server + licences + support

functional costs:
1 function for validation - I can't see more then 8 cosmic functional points

1 function for upload data from imap server - 6-7 cfp depends on parametrics (how many of them should be)

1 function for cards recongnize - 4 cfp to use already written

sumed up:
less then 20 cfp + 10 mandays + hardware and licence costs.
Probably depends on country but here (Poland) 1 cfp is from 500$-2000$ - depends on size of project and technologies. Those are really very little many compared to some marketing actions or Events and every format would benefit.

[Lord Seth]

A few months ago, there was a blog entry of some MODO guy who quit Wizards because he tried to be productive, but they wouldn't let him and moved him to DotP instead.

Where was this?

Although it's always easy for someone to paint themselves as in the right in any given situation, so whenever I see "disgruntled employee" accounts from any company I always wonder exactly how slanted their account is.

[Finn]

Where was this?

Although it's always easy for someone to paint themselves as in the right in any given situation, so whenever I see "disgruntled employee" accounts from any company I always wonder exactly how slanted their account is.

I read this. Also, there is some site that I wandered onto where you rate companies you have worked for. (I'm sure someone here knows what this is, and there are probably dozens of such sites.) But on this one, I found lots of former employees from wotc who had essentially the same to say. It is fairly well established in my mind as fact that the company is mismanaged.

Funny thing is, when Hasbro took over in like, '98 I think, we were all nervous that they would ship out all the creative talent that had made the game excellent to that point in favor of stuffy fellows in bowties with management degrees. Now I think I agree with Barook. There are so many things I do not like about the way they are doing things now that I think a complete shake down is called for. Bring in the muthafuggin suits.


On a more pertinent note, I have lost track of this thread again because it has been more than 12 hours and the conversation has gone round and round since then. But seriously, while last month had Elves to fuel the arguments that everything is awesome, you simply can not refute the effect delve horseshit has had on the format now. TCDecks has all blue decks at the top for December. Every one. What do ya know, you bring back Ancestral Recall and you have a variety of blue decks dominating. It's not rocket surgery.

What exactly is the argument against the format terribly out of balance?

[testing32]

What exactly is the argument against the format terribly out of balance?

The new narrative is that the data is inconclusive and people aren't innovating enough.