All B/R update speculation.

[AznSeal]

At this point, I hope the blue shell gets banned just to spite the people who are whining about it. I want to see how much you like a format where your goblin decks just repeatedly get dumpstered by Elves. Knowing the type of people you are, you'd probably want to ban the "green shell" as opposed to fucking innovate.

[Lemnear]

At this point, I hope the blue shell gets banned just to spite the people who are whining about it. I want to see how much you like a format where your goblin decks just repeatedly get dumpstered by Elves. Knowing the type of people you are, you'd probably want to ban the "green shell" as opposed to fucking innovate.

It's not that off to imagine that the "ban card x, it kills diversity!" cycle continues. I can remember the same happening before and after the Survival banning in this thread. People bitch about SotF making Goblins/Zoo obsolete -> Survival gets banned -> people bitch about S&T/LED making Goblins/Zoo obsolete. Its the same bullshit, year after year just the offenders change who tag up with Brainstorm in this thread. Atm it's Cruise, before that it was TNN.

[Adryan]

I really would like to know why people think that combo decks will get hurt a lot by a Brainstorm ban. Does no one play Combo in Modern? Combo is still very consistent without Brainstorm, Preordain and Ponder (Consistent Turn 3 kills, some Turn 2 kills with Jeskai Ascendancy). Fair decks will suffer a lot more from a Brainstorm ban.

[zulander]

Combo decks would probably benefit the most from a brainstorm banning as there'd be a lot less brainstorming for forces or hiding counters in response to a duress by blue mages.

[Lemnear]

I really would like to know why people think that combo decks will get hurt a lot by a Brainstorm ban. Does no one play Combo in Modern? Combo is still very consistent without Brainstorm, Preordain and Ponder (Consistent Turn 3 kills, some Turn 2 kills with Jeskai Ascendancy). Fair decks will suffer a lot more from a Brainstorm ban.

Read a few pages back. It's discussed to death and we also still don't know if Ascendancy is ok for WotC in modern. Do I really need to hint at the cardpool of control and the metagame in modern to explain why Ascendancy is successful there?


Edit:

Combo decks would probably benefit the most from a brainstorm banning as there'd be a lot less brainstorming for forces or hiding counters in response to a duress by blue mages.

Because drawing the third fatty in your S&T deck is less of a problem than finding FoW with a Preordain in place of a Brainstorm? Total nonsense as the example with hiding counterspells from discard is: if you put all your counterspells to the top in response to a Duress and your opponent goes for the combo the same turn, you achieved what?

[Ingo]

It's not that off to imagine that the "ban card x, it kills diversity!" cycle continues. I can remember the same happening before and after the Survival banning in this thread. People bitch about SotF making Goblins/Zoo obsolete -> Survival gets banned -> people bitch about S&T/LED making Goblins/Zoo obsolete. Its the same bullshit, year after year just the offenders change who tag up with Brainstorm in this thread. Atm it's Cruise, before that it was TNN.

You can't deny that blue took over aggro in tempodecks as well at this stage, through delver + Cruise reload. That's besides the already existing dominance of blue in combo and control. And while I can understand a plea in favor of brainstorm, I really don't understand why you don't acknowledge this 70% blue omnipresenceness as a problem for variance. 70% !!!! It's like playing chess with 6 queens each, besides one bishop and a horse.

[Adryan]

Read a few pages back. It's discussed to death and we also still don't know if Ascendancy is ok for WotC in modern. Do I really need to hint at the cardpool of control and the metagame in modern to explain why Ascendancy is successful there?

There was only stuff that didn't make any sense. Ascendancy is 100 % not okay for Wotc. My point is that it is just stupid to assume that Combo won't be great without Brainstorm. Modern combo decks with their shitty cantrips fight quite easily through disruption and are consistent and resilent against Midrange decks.

Now compare that to a Legacy world without Brainstorm. When switching from the modern card pool to the legacy card pool combo decks get better cantrips, fast mana acceleration, cheap combo enablers like Show& Tell, Reanimate etc. Almost a whole new world. What do the fair decks get: better cantrips, Force of Will, Counterbalance (with Brainstorm being banned Miracles will be a lot less powerful), some softcounters (softcounters are kind of bad against combo, unless you have a ridicolous fast clock paired with manadenial; i'd rather have a Remand against Storm when playing a Delver deck). I think Combo decks look a lot better when they are upgraded from Modern to Legay than fair decks.

With that said, i would really enjoy seeing Brainstorm banned and a lot of people playing Maverick, Death and Taxes, Elves, Goblins. Wonderful world to play against people with my 2U "i'm too skilled" card (i don't mean Sneakshow, i mean something like U/B Omnishow where my opponent can have as many Karakas and Phyrexian Revokers as he wants to have).

[Lemnear]

There was only stuff that didn't make any sense. Ascendancy is 100 % not okay for Wotc. My point is that it is just stupid to assume that Combo won't be great without Brainstorm. Modern combo decks with their shitty cantrips fight quite easily through disruption and are consistent and resilent against Midrange decks.

Now compare that to a Legacy world without Brainstorm. When switching from the modern card pool to the legacy card pool combo decks get better cantrips, fast mana acceleration, cheap combo enablers like Show& Tell, Reanimate etc. Almost a whole new world. What do the fair decks get: better cantrips, Force of Will, Counterbalance (with Brainstorm being banned Miracles will be a lot less powerful), some softcounters (softcounters are kind of bad against combo, unless you have a ridicolous fast clock paired with manadenial; i'd rather have a Remand against Storm when playing a Delver deck). I think Combo decks look a lot better when they are upgraded from Modern to Legay than fair decks.

With that said, i would really enjoy seeing Brainstorm banned and a lot of people playing Maverick, Death and Taxes, Elves, Goblins. Wonderful world to play against people with my 2U "i'm too skilled" card (i don't mean Sneakshow, i mean something like U/B Omnishow where my opponent can have as many Karakas and Phyrexian Revokers as he wants to have).

So you don't see a consistancy Problem of drawing your clunky bullshit like Enter the Infinite and Omnisciences and Emrakul nor think that Ponder + Brainstorm + FoW are Levels above the defense-tool available in Modern? Are you serious?

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Goblins was dead long before TNN hit the shelves. It was not Terminus that killed it either, it was the reduced effectiveness of its mana denial plan to push though to the late game as well as the decrease in Lackeys efficacy that killed it.

If anything, I think Goblins has a rather good Miracles match up.

DRS killed Goblins.

That is at least my perspective.

DRS cockblocks Lackey and accelerates mana.

DRS was or still is (not sure) the most played creature in legacy followed by Delver. Lackey can't trade with DRS or a flipped Delver or SFM.

[Adryan]

So you don't see a consistancy Problem of drawing your clunky bullshit like Enter the Infinite and Omnisciences and Emrakul nor think that Ponder + Brainstorm + FoW are Levels above the defense-tool available in Modern? Are you serious?

Why would anyone with a brain ever play something like that when Brainstorm is banned? You just play all the non Brainstorm cantrips, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 FoW, 4 Dig Through Time, 3- 4 Flusterstorm, 1-2 Boseju etc. and the combopieces are 4 S&T 4 Omniscience 2 Emrakuls and voila you have a deck that wrecks blue Control/ Midrange and all the non blue decks. You really think having 2 Emrakul in your hand is the same problem as having 2 Swords to Plowshares, some creatures that cost more than 1-2 when playing against a combo strategy. Hilarious.

Edit: I was comparing the gain of fair decks to the gain of combo decks when they are "upgraded" from Modern to Legacy. In a non Brainstorm Legacy world combo decks get a lot more from the larger card pool. Not having Brainstorm in Legacy will only decrease the fun of the format, because of the increase of masturbation. Decreasing the number of blue decks in the format, without giving other colors great tools against combo is just plain stupid.

[Teveshszat]

Nielsie
Wait a moment. Are you comparing Brainstorm to the other cantrips only on how much cards you can dig from your library? Where does your formula reflect all the other things Brainstorm does? How does it reflect it's instant speed and 1 CMC?

Actually yes that is what I do. the instant speed doesn´t matter because I dicuss consitancy percentages which are indepandant from the time you play the card. What I compare is the ability how much cards you see/draw for each cantrip and how high the percentage is that you get the card you need with them. The reason is that my argument is that cantrips increase consistency and that they do it on such a high level that banning 1 of them only would lead to a change of the cantrip but no to a change of the deck played.
Also for the Manacost. Most cantrips concidered in this thread are CMC1 so I don´t have to factore this in because it is the same for all cantrips I compare.

What you get with the banning of brainstorm is that the combo decks crease to exist and tempo becomes quiet stronger because they can race mid range control now without problems and don´t have to worry about a speedy combo deck who can kill them in time.

[Quizzlemanizzle]

Actually yes that is what I do. the instant speed doesn´t matter because I dicuss consitancy percentages which are indepandant from the time you play the card. What I compare is the ability how much cards you see/draw for each cantrip and how high the percentage is that you get the card you need with them. The reason is that my argument is that cantrips increase consistency and that they do it on such a high level that banning 1 of them only would lead to a change of the cantrip but no to a change of the deck played.
Also for the Manacost. Most cantrips concidered in this thread are CMC1 so I don´t have to factore this in because it is the same for all cantrips I compare.

Being instant is a huge part of Brainstorm's power.

EOT Brainstorm/Fetch before the draw? Yes please.
Brainstorm in response to Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy/Hymn to Tourach? Yes please.
In response Brainstorm for Force of Will?

Of course blue based decks would probably increase the number of Ponder/Preordain to replace Brainstorm but it would clearly make those decks worse.

[LennonMarx]

Why would anyone with a brain ever play something like that when Brainstorm is banned? You just play all the non Brainstorm cantrips, 4 Thoughtseize, 4 FoW, 4 Dig Through Time, 3- 4 Flusterstorm, 1-2 Boseju etc. and the combopieces are 4 S&T 4 Omniscience 2 Emrakuls and voila you have a deck that wrecks blue Control/ Midrange and all the non blue decks. You really think having 2 Emrakul in your hand is the same problem as having 2 Swords to Plowshares, some creatures that cost more than 1-2 when playing against a combo strategy. Hilarious.

In general, having 2 STP in your hand is fine. In general, having 2 Emrakul in your hand without a Show and Tell is terrible. That is the difference. Also, if your hypothetical deck is so amazing, I'm pretty sure we would be seeing something like that now instead/along side of the Burning/Cunning Wish versions of Omni.

[Adryan]

In general, having 2 STP in your hand is fine. In general, having 2 Emrakul in your hand without a Show and Tell is terrible. That is the difference. Also, if your hypothetical deck is so amazing, I'm pretty sure we would be seeing something like that now instead/along side of the Burning/Cunning Wish versions of Omni.

Deck is too slow against UR Delver. When Brainstorm is banned and that deck is gone, i will be the first to crush the dreams of the Timmy's on Magic Online. No, having 2 STP's in your hand is not fine when playing against combo. Emrakul or Rituals can become a live card, once you have other cards. Swords to Plowshares will always be a super dead card, or do you expect to win against Storm by plowing your own creatures etc.?

[LennonMarx]

Deck is too slow against UR Delver. When Brainstorm is banned and that deck is gone, i will be the first to crush the dreams of the Timmy's on Magic Online.

I hate to break it to you, but if only Brainstorm is banned that deck likely doesn't go away, and probably gets faster as it loses all intensive to play cards like daze and become more of a burn deck.

[Adryan]

I hate to break it to you, but if only Brainstorm is banned that deck likely doesn't go away, and probably gets faster as it loses all intensive to play cards like daze and become more of a burn deck.

That is definetely possible. We will see. If UR Delver stays, i will just play Storm instead.

[Teveshszat]

That is definetely possible. We will see. If UR Delver stays, i will just play Storm instead.

Playing storm will be difficult without Brainstorm to fix your and at instant speed. The reason is that sotrm can´t afford
1 turn more against tempo decks in which the remaing cantrips will be far superior than in storm.

[Lemnear]

That is definetely possible. We will see. If UR Delver stays, i will just play Storm instead.

Then you should know how Brainstorms ability to switch protection for gas and Vice versa affects the viability of this particular deck

[Adryan]

Then you should know how Brainstorms ability to switch protection for gas and Vice versa affects the viability of this particular deck

Not a big deal when blue can't switch dead cards for disruption. Just take any Delver 75, Miracle 75 and Storm 75 and replace Brainstorms with Serum Visions to visualize the effect on each deck if Brainstorm is banned. I'm very sure that Storm will benefit the most, especially preboard.

[death]

The only reason why ANT isn't dead yet is because of cantrips: BS + Ponder + Preordain. This is how it survived post-Mystical Tutor banning.

OmniTell in comparison still has DTT, Wishes, Personal Tutor. Deck can still work w/o BS.