Hi everyone,
I am a devout Source fanatic and love Legacy. I have been playing Abzan Maverick for awhile now but was getting frustrated. I am a huge proponent of Rhino Pod in Modern and was looking to port that type of deck to Legacy. I always new NicFit was a thing but always assumed it was a blue based deck. After realizing Explorer/Therapy can be utilized many different ways I have been toying with that base in a deck that I would enjoy.
I have seen some people try Pod itself in Legacy but I am not sure it's really needed. Green's Sun Zenith plays it's part well and Pod, although great late game, isn't something I think I will be doing. After perusing some lists and trying to put something together I have arrived at this -
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Siege Rhino
1 Titania, Protector of Argoth
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Sylvan Library
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa’s Jitte
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
1 Horizon Canopy
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
3 Plains
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Containment Priest
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Duress
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Choke
It is kind of like Abzan Maverick but more explosive. I have tested a few games online (much more testing to go) and I like having the MD Cabal Therapy and Deed over the hate bears of Maverick.
With all of the removal and solid creature package I think this type of direction will play well versus fair decks. With Explorer it is nice that we can just windmill Batterskull easily without having to have Stoneforge. Rhino is the real deal even in Legacy. Delver doesn't like a Rhino hitting the board.
SB skews toward combo like any Legacy deck not playing blue.
I really like how good Pernicious Deed is right now.
Thoughts?
Why bother with equipment? It doesnt play well with deed and truly, you do not need it. I think it might be better to cut the SFM package and the Library for Top amd more Gsz targets.
Really only Jitte dies to Deed. I didn't think about Top, Top is probably better then Library anyway. I have a hard time figuring out what is better then the equipment package really. I thought about Knight of the Reliquary at one point. I like the Jitte for late game Explorers.Originally Posted by sdematt
What GSZ targets are better then Stoneforge/Equipment?
Basically the deck is like Maverick but instead of hate bears we get to play bigger threats and sweepers. Instead of top decking 2/2's we get Rhino/Batterskull/Titania.
That's my point. Why not just play Sigarda, Thrun, and Eternal Witness?
-Matt
While I'm not giving up on Punishing NicFit, I think it's time to play with Rhinos and Teeg. Here's what I've got so far:
16 creature
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
3 Siege Rhino
1 Eternal Witness
1 Rec Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Sigarda
19 other
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Swords to Plowshares
3 SDT
3 Pernicious Deed
22 land
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
3 Swamp
3 Plains
3 Forest
1 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
That leaves 3 slots open. I can't afford Karakas so that's out of the question (is Sneak even played anymore?). I could feasibly add 1 Spike Feeder 2 Archangel. Thoughts?
Glad we came to the same conclusion :)
According to -
http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=LE
Sneak&Show is the most played combo deck. So unfortunately Karakas is pretty important.
If you're not running Pod, don't bother with that combo.
Maybe with those 3 slots, run a Diabolic Intent, Swords to Plowshares, and another creature. I'd suggest Swagtusk.
-Matt
Karakas is also nice for bouncing Teeg and Sigarda.
-Matt
Totally forgot about the Tusk D:
I'd borrow a Karakas from my roommate, but he plays DnT pretty exclusively.
I like the 3rd StP, but I'm not sure about Diabolic Intent. will require testing for sure.
What's the SB plan with junk? Has anyone given thought to my Rule of Law suggestion?
In the meantime i have switched back to Punishing Fires from the Junk builds. Being able to hard control the board and grind out with a flipping Huntmaster feels better for me. Also switching to more discard, plus slaughter games/extirpate gives me the ability to fight combo/miracles in a way that its just unfair. I slowly come to understand how to fight decks by both playing it and playing against it. The PFire build gives me the perfect tools to go in hardcore, but with the added bonus that it beats face to blue decks while itself not being blue.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Played another weekly at my store and went 4-0, once again. People are going to start bringing combo again, I swear...
4 Veteran Explorer
4 Siege Rhino
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
2 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Karakas
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Recurring Nightmare
1 Eternal Witness
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Thragtusk
3 Path to Exile
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Golgari Charm
1 Marsh Flats
SB: 2 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 2 Toxic Deluge
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
Round 1: Gaman with Mono Blue Basalt Monolith Mesmeric Orb Combo
Game 1 is a slow grind where he has natural counterspell for everything, then I draw the bricks. He derdles for 20 minutes before he gets the combo, figures it out, and I scoop. I was hoping he would dirt himself and now know how it worked, or I'd draw Thrun. I was wrong.
I take out Vets.
Game 2, I roll him with Turn 1 Carpet and eventually just Rhino time him while blowing up his Mesmeric Orb a few times.
Game 3 is very much the same way, but we go to time. I show him the all these in my hand, and I ask him to scoop to me. He does.
1-0
Round 2: James with Merfolk
James usually plays Reanimator, so I'm not looking forward to it. However, he's on fucking Merfolk. I have the nut Turn 2 Siege Rhino, but he has hard Force of Will. Perfect. I grind him until he drops double TNN, which I just lay Deed and Deed for 3 after clearing the way with Therapy. I land Rhino and grind him into the dirt.
I take out Vet and bring in Carpet and Deluge.
Game 2 is worse for him, since he starts to build natural presence, but I go Turn 5 Rhino, Turn 6 Rhino, Turn 7 Rhino. He can't beat that.
2-0
Round 3: Brian with RUG Mandrills
Brain and I built that deck very much together, so I know what's going on. I keep a semi-risky land light hand, but it should be good. Turrns out, he has the nut hand that RUG gets and I get blown out. Ouch, my butt.
I take out a Vet, Thrun, and random slow garbage for Carpet and Toxic Deluge.
I kept a removal heavy but mana stable hand. We trade back and forth, I call a critical Stifle off Cabal Therapy, then proceed to gain the upper hand. It goes my way when I cast Sigarda, he plays Goyf and Mandrills to pressure since I'm lower on life, then I Deluge away Mandrills and Goyf. He scoops.
Game 3 I keep: Deathrite, Scrubland, Plains, GSZ, Decay, Path to Exile, Golgari Charm. It's not a great one, but it's fine. A green source, and I'm good, right? Bad times. I draw into Swamp, which is good. I cast Deathrite and I'm in the money. Unforts, he has Fire/Ice. Shit. We draw-go after he wastes my Scrubland and a Karakas I draw later, but I get a Top online. I dig for a Fetch, but he has Stifle. He beats in with a 2/3 Goyf for a while, and I finally draw a Bayou. I use Top to draw the Carpet of Flowers floating on Top, then proceed to grease his board. I drop Siege Rhino but can't decay in the same turn, but it keeps me afloat. I get another draw phase and am able to GSZ for explorer and Decay his guy. Vet gets more necessary basic lands, and I come back with another Rhino. Carpet was our TSN turning point, folks.
3-0
Round 4: Doug with 4C Loam
I keep a removal heavy hand he has Chalice at one, but I have a Deed hand. I misplay a bit with Explorer, since I should have kept him mana light. I win through Deed recursion off Eternal Witness and Rhino beats. I worry about that 20/20.
Game 2 is similar, but I get cocky and don't board Surgicals in. I keep a generally good hand and just grind with removal. Chalice at 1 was a pain, but I land double Rhino and he has Maze of Ith. We exchange removal back and forth, but he can't get Knight online to 20/20 me and victory is mine.
I get $25 store credit for my troubles.
-Matt
With all the talk about Carpet of Flowers, is running that just better than Veteran Explorer at the moment?
I also was wondering if anyone has ever tested or thought about Glissa, the Traitor and Engineered Explosives as a boardwipe engine. Whatever creatures die off EE will trigger Glissa with EE in the graveyard. Glissa also beats Goyf and Batterskull in combat, though she has trouble with Lightning Bolt.
Glissa is 3cmc dies to any removal (maybe except forked bolt) it can combo with EE (but you need both cards), none will attack just to loses Goyf or Germ this mean its just a wall.
I mean, it's probably okay...I played that engine in Junk to test it out in a format that wasn't as red heavy and it wasn't amazing. Sure, in creature combat, no one ever blocks her, but with TNN around that's a different story.
I think the Volrath's Stronghold recursion with Eternal Witness is likely slower, but more versatile. I agree that Recurring boardwipes are fantastic, but I feel like if you're running EE for this loop you lose Deed, and Deed is too strong, especially with how our deck is built.
-Matt
So I've decided to branch out from my usual deck (Junk Maverick) and put together the following Punishing Explorer deck. What I've found through play testing is that through the heavy removal and over the top creatures this can beat any fair deck. I haven't tested against MUD yet, but I imagine that that is probably the only bad "fair" match-up that we have. Maybe Titan/12-Post too, but there is no one currently playing that in my meta. I pretty much have dedicated the entire sideboard for various combo decks which I will get into further. So here it is, I would love to hear feedback:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Primeval Titan
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Punishing Fire
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Sylvan Library
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Taiga
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SIDEBOARD
3 Thoughtseize (against all combo)
2 Mindbreak Trap (various storm decks which is very heavy in my meta)
2 Pyroblast (Sneak and Show, Omnitell, Miracles, Jeskai Ascendancy, Painter Stone, etc. I do not board into delver decks because we already have such a great matchup that it would be overboarding)
2 Slaughter Games (against most combo and miracles. Take away Tendrills, Emerkul, Entreat the Angles, etc.)
1 Chains of Mephistopheles (Against Storm, Omnitell, Jeskai Ascendancy, Miracles and Elves. The only TC deck I board this into is UR delver due to speed and I Board out Garruk.)
1 Choke (Almost all blue matchups. Not sneak and show, because it does nothing against Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors or Storm because they play mostly black)
1 Nihil Spellbomb (Reanimator, Dredge, Maverick, Threshold RUG)
1 Null Rod (MUD, Equipment Decks, Storm, Dredge, Painter Stone)
1 Pyroclasm (D&T, Elves)
1 Surgical Extraction (another catch all against most combo, especially Graveyard strategies)
Given that the Meta is mostly fair I feel this deck is well positioned to catch people off guard. Game 1 is basically autolose to combo, unless we have 2 cabal therapies in our opening hand or draw them within the first few turns. I would really like a 2nd pyroclasm in the board, but I cut it for Null Rod as that seem much more important and I feel our Elves matchup should be pretty well positioned because of the heavy removal. Plus it overlaps with Deed. I think I might need more graveyard hate, but I'm going to start here for now and tweak it throughout the next few tournaments.
It's Pre-release weekend, so there isn't any tournaments until February. I will keep you all posted on my experiences with the deck.
I have the same feeling about MUD/Post-variants, I played those matchups 3-4 times (which isn't really a lot, I know) and always had a hard time (some mistakes included). Cloudpost ramp is just very hard for us to keep up with. I'm not that sure about the Elves matchup though, since our removal is more on the slow side, at least preboard, and you have to have discard as well, to take their NOs, GSZs, Visionaries, whatever. I guess your bolts help a lot there.
thoughts on your list: I like bolts as great cc1 remocal spells, I just can't find the space for them in my list, since I don't want to cut Lilianas.
You have lots of "colorless" lands in your list as well, with a colorintensive deck like that, was that a problem for you so far?
Your creature setup looks solid, I just play DRS and Obstinate Baloth instead of your second Witness and second Huntmaster.
Greetings
I would say that you don't need the Lightning Bolts. I would cut all 3 to put in 3 lilianas. Also, cut primal hunter and sylvan library for 2 more sensei's divining top. The 3 non-color producing lands (stronghold, tower, wolf run) might also color screw you a bit, I would cut it down to just 1, maybe 2 if wastelands don't run rampant in your meta.
I actually find the Mana to be more manageable than Maverick, even with the three colorless lands. Fetches help a lot, same with the explorers (obviously). Regarding the Elves matchup, between punishing fire, bolts, abrupt decays and deeds it is much easier to stay ahead of in game 1. Game 2 gets easier with Chains and Pyroclasm. Out of all the combo matchups I think this is the one I would like to see the most (unless you count infect as combo). Charbeltcher being the one I want to see the least.
I like Liliana of the Veil, a lot. However, I think that the Meta might be too fast for her at the moment, for our deck at least. Between the Cabal Therapies and Thoughtseizes sideboard I don't know how valuable her discard is at the moment (not being able to select a specific card is probably not what we want for discard). Maybe I could cut a deed and Garruk for 2. Garruk is so good though, especially in the miracles matchup. Lilly is good too, but post terminus dumping out 3/3s is pretty good as well has having card draw in green. Also, deed has farther reach than a Liliana sac. I'm going to try both and see what I find to be better.
Lightning bolt is pretty important to stabilize the early game while we set up our mana to dump Thurn, Thragtusk, Primeval Titan and Garruk. The second Huntmaster is to have dual bodies and being able to flip him back in forth creates a lot of value. In the burn matchup, although 4 life is much better, being able to block multiple creatures is pretty great. I am also not above sacing huntmaster to volrath him ontop of my deck to reoccur the life gain and creature. Also, usually Thragtusk is enough life gain against Burn that It's gg when he hits the board.
Just thought I'd pimp-drop my list, missing Thrun since he was hiding in the sideboard :/
-Matt
I still think those Portal basics were cooler
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