Miracle Control

[smurfy]

Thanks for the input guys i'll STFU about that now

Re Venser: for me whilst sometimes it looks great it usually just falls under being a bit cute (playing against it that is). Whenever the Karakas lock shenanigans was relevant it was the stage of the game that meant i was dead rather than it being Venser, it could have been flying man at that point Miracles had control.

[Dragonslayer_90]

Took miracles to my local game store yesterday after taking a break from it for about a month. Went 3-0-1 with the deck finally to split credit with my fourth round opponent. May have hit a milestone yesterday in terms of the learning the deck because I wasn't able to do that before, but yesterday everything felt so right. Was real happy by the end of the night. Anyways, one of my matches was a mirror. Was really fun as we played three good games and still had 10 or 15 minutes left on the clock by the time we were done. In game three I had a pretty good 7 on the play: top, brainstorm, ponder, counterbalance, two island, and some other card I can't remember but wasn't too relevant either way. In this game I went T1 Top. Then he went on his turn one top. I then make a rather aggressive play, without having force backup, turn two counterbalance to try and establish the lock early. He had no force, or a counterbalance of his own to play next turn so my risk is rewarded. I then proceed to push ahead as he can never resolve anything as usual, ending the game with wear// tear and council's judgment on top and a snapcaster on the field to lock the game up and thus the match up pretty much.

I want to ask you guys what do you think about aggressive lines like that where you "curve out" so to speak? Are they worth taking without having counter backup and potentially running into a force as I could have in the game state I had? Had my opponent not played a top turn one and left mana open that indicated a potential REB/pyro I would not have played my turn two counterbalance. But he opted to tap out for his top so my reasoning was to jam my CB on Turn Two and make him have Force of Will to not get too far behind. Thoughts?

Another general question: Ein is a proponent of siding out one land against any non-wasteland decks and the two plains in the mirror. What do you guys think of siding out two lands against decks that not only don't have wasteland but no soft permission or mana denial of anykind like Elves or UWR Stoneblade? Or is that change only reserves for the mirror?

[Lemnear]

I also think that frankly Legacy has to be much more open to those kind of posts due to the simple financial constraints of the format, if we stop people from posting about their deck if its not optimized for financial reasons we are, as a community negatively affecting their view of the format. People play with budget legacy decks all the time, granted not all want to optimize them. Some, like me though do, they just want to find the right deck to put their money into prior to doing so.

I'm maybe a but late to the Party, but I feel I have to jump in here to share my experience with the matter. While this is a compeditive forum, I sure see the need to bridge financial, temporary gaps and ask for community advice, but in the old Elves thread on the board, this escalated from temporary replacements for Gaea's Cradle to complete talk about budget lists (Priest of titania + Archdruid because the combo approach was insufficient w/o Cradle) pretty quickly and dragged the thread into hell, so Daniel had to make a new one to cut out the casual talk.

A second instance of the problem and the reason I personally tend to chop down casual talk is that people are usually unable to link their budget deckbuilding options and inexperience with a new archetype to their performance. If both comes together, it s fatal, especially if people don't know the chokepoints of certain decks and WHY the lose games. Not everyone is able to weigh up the canyon of a gap existing between Duals and Shocks if they run Ad Nauseam or a Control deck and the additional damage being the deciding factor between winning and losing more often than not. This usually leads to serious Frustration and dropping the deck quickly because they can't handle either the learning curve and/or resulting losses. The frustration often results into angry posts, calling a deck "crap", "pile", etc. and trolling cross forums.

I'm sure no one in this thread (or board) is interrested to fuel bad reputation which grounds on beforementioned factors. If you are looking for the digital Abyss of this problem, I recommend mtg-forum.de, a german Website full of horrible builds and frustration piloting those, moderated by people who either red-flag article-Links as "SPAM" or erase COMPLETE POSTS if they contain named links (also if the linked content is ENGLISH and not german; sadly no joke)

This is just a personal statement on budget lists, so take it only with a grain of salt, gentlemen.

[Lormador]

Took miracles to my local game store yesterday after taking a break from it for about a month. Went 3-0-1 with the deck finally to split credit with my fourth round opponent. May have hit a milestone yesterday in terms of the learning the deck because I wasn't able to do that before, but yesterday everything felt so right. Was real happy by the end of the night. Anyways, one of my matches was a mirror. Was really fun as we played three good games and still had 10 or 15 minutes left on the clock by the time we were done. In game three I had a pretty good 7 on the play: top, brainstorm, ponder, counterbalance, two island, and some other card I can't remember but wasn't too relevant either way. In this game I went T1 Top. Then he went on his turn one top. I then make a rather aggressive play, without having force backup, turn two counterbalance to try and establish the lock early. He had no force, or a counterbalance of his own to play next turn so my risk is rewarded. I then proceed to push ahead as he can never resolve anything as usual, ending the game with wear// tear and council's judgment on top and a snapcaster on the field to lock the game up and thus the match up pretty much.

I want to ask you guys what do you think about aggressive lines like that where you "curve out" so to speak? Are they worth taking without having counter backup and potentially running into a force as I could have in the game state I had? Had my opponent not played a top turn one and left mana open that indicated a potential REB/pyro I would not have played my turn two counterbalance. But he opted to tap out for his top so my reasoning was to jam my CB on Turn Two and make him have Force of Will to not get too far behind. Thoughts?

Re: the aggressive Counterbalance against the known mirror setting up T1 Top

You had Ponder, Brainstorm, the card drawn for the turn and a nonrelevant card in hand at the time Counterbalance was cast. The way I see it, your other option was to cast the Ponder digging for a 1-mana counterspell or a Force to try deal with a potential opposing Counterbalance, which your opponent would then need to use his own Force to defend. Presuming that your opponent didn't want to tap out for a CB in the face of an untapped Island, you'd probably have gotten into a digging war. With both players using Top, you're not at a clear advantage in a digging war.

I don't know... if it were me I would not have deployed a T1 Top on the draw like that without Force of Will at the ready. I suspect your opponent was bluffing the Force, you called it and won.

I still like casting the Counterbalance there. If he Forces, we're off to the races to find the next CB and your hand is full of cantrips. If he plays his own CB after yours and the blind flip whiffs, that's equality. Only in the case of his Forcing yours and then playing his own are you behind, and if that's his grip then those cantrips are unlikely to help however you cast them.

[Quasim0ff]

Took miracles to my local game store yesterday after taking a break from it for about a month. Went 3-0-1 with the deck finally to split credit with my fourth round opponent. May have hit a milestone yesterday in terms of the learning the deck because I wasn't able to do that before, but yesterday everything felt so right. Was real happy by the end of the night. Anyways, one of my matches was a mirror. Was really fun as we played three good games and still had 10 or 15 minutes left on the clock by the time we were done. In game three I had a pretty good 7 on the play: top, brainstorm, ponder, counterbalance, two island, and some other card I can't remember but wasn't too relevant either way. In this game I went T1 Top. Then he went on his turn one top. I then make a rather aggressive play, without having force backup, turn two counterbalance to try and establish the lock early. He had no force, or a counterbalance of his own to play next turn so my risk is rewarded. I then proceed to push ahead as he can never resolve anything as usual, ending the game with wear// tear and council's judgment on top and a snapcaster on the field to lock the game up and thus the match up pretty much.

I want to ask you guys what do you think about aggressive lines like that where you "curve out" so to speak? Are they worth taking without having counter backup and potentially running into a force as I could have in the game state I had? Had my opponent not played a top turn one and left mana open that indicated a potential REB/pyro I would not have played my turn two counterbalance. But he opted to tap out for his top so my reasoning was to jam my CB on Turn Two and make him have Force of Will to not get too far behind. Thoughts?

Another general question: Ein is a proponent of siding out one land against any non-wasteland decks and the two plains in the mirror. What do you guys think of siding out two lands against decks that not only don't have wasteland but no soft permission or mana denial of anykind like Elves or UWR Stoneblade? Or is that change only reserves for the mirror?

With the hand you had, I'd have slammed it. It's basically like this: Do you expect him to have, on his 6 cards, Counterbalance, Force of Will + blue card, + blue source and xx. If not, then you are advantaged. You could obviously also have pondered to see 3 more cards (and perhaps a REB/pierce/whatever 1mana counter you play), but that just makes the game go longer, which isn't exactly good for you.

[QQQ]

With the expected meta shift post-ban, is it still correct to run a full set of Red Blasts in the 75?

[Quasim0ff]

With the expected meta shift post-ban, is it still correct to run a full set of Red Blasts in the 75?

highly unlikely.

[YamiJoey]

I've been boarding down to twenty Lands for a while now, and after a short message two/from Ein, I've been wanting to try out 19 in the mirror. The theory behind it is sound, and now that I'm personally on 13 1-mana cantrips (4 Top, 4 BS, 4 Ponder, 1 Preordane) I don't see why it would ever be all that bad.

[swordstoplowsharesguy]

Took miracles to my local game store yesterday after taking a break from it for about a month. Went 3-0-1 with the deck finally to split credit with my fourth round opponent. May have hit a milestone yesterday in terms of the learning the deck because I wasn't able to do that before, but yesterday everything felt so right. Was real happy by the end of the night. Anyways, one of my matches was a mirror. Was really fun as we played three good games and still had 10 or 15 minutes left on the clock by the time we were done. In game three I had a pretty good 7 on the play: top, brainstorm, ponder, counterbalance, two island, and some other card I can't remember but wasn't too relevant either way. In this game I went T1 Top. Then he went on his turn one top. I then make a rather aggressive play, without having force backup, turn two counterbalance to try and establish the lock early. He had no force, or a counterbalance of his own to play next turn so my risk is rewarded. I then proceed to push ahead as he can never resolve anything as usual, ending the game with wear// tear and council's judgment on top and a snapcaster on the field to lock the game up and thus the match up pretty much.

I think slamming it is certainly correct and not even aggressive really: make them have it. If the other option is to ponder hoping to find some interaction so you can play CB next turn it also gives your opponent another chance to find more action. It also gives them the option to leave up mana, turning on a potential SP or REB. Seems like a losing battle, especially if they get a top activation along the way. Even if they have force/blue card you're up on the exchange, and if they also have counterbalance their is no guarantee your ponder finds you an answer. I don't see much advantage in playing around exactly FOW here. I think you made the right call!

[exallium]

With the expected meta shift post-ban, is it still correct to run a full set of Red Blasts in the 75?

I wouldn't be surprised if we go back to Council's Judgement in the main deck for the ponder lists, down to one Red Blast. Depending on how the meta shapes, I could see the justification of cutting a swords for some other piece of action.

Grind down becomes a thing again, and if people continue to run less reb effects, Keranos definitely becomes an option again.

I'd want to see Judgement in the main again because Lilianna is going to be back in force, and while she isn't lethal by any means, she's very annoying, and upping our 3drop count can help combat that.

[Bobmans]

Council's Judgment, cus Ugin IS going to happen ;-p

[sdematt]

Just run Thran Lens to combat Ugin ;)

-Matt

[drocker23]

just run thran lens to combat ugin ;)

-matt

lol!!!!!!

[smurfy]

I'm maybe a but late to the Party, but I feel I have to jump in here to share my experience with the matter. While this is a compeditive forum, I sure see the need to bridge financial, temporary gaps and ask for community advice, but in the old Elves thread on the board, this escalated from temporary replacements for Gaea's Cradle to complete talk about budget lists (Priest of titania + Archdruid because the combo approach was insufficient w/o Cradle) pretty quickly and dragged the thread into hell, so Daniel had to make a new one to cut out the casual talk.

A second instance of the problem and the reason I personally tend to chop down casual talk is that people are usually unable to link their budget deckbuilding options and inexperience with a new archetype to their performance. If both comes together, it s fatal, especially if people don't know the chokepoints of certain decks and WHY the lose games. Not everyone is able to weigh up the canyon of a gap existing between Duals and Shocks if they run Ad Nauseam or a Control deck and the additional damage being the deciding factor between winning and losing more often than not. This usually leads to serious Frustration and dropping the deck quickly because they can't handle either the learning curve and/or resulting losses. The frustration often results into angry posts, calling a deck "crap", "pile", etc. and trolling cross forums.

I'm sure no one in this thread (or board) is interrested to fuel bad reputation which grounds on beforementioned factors. If you are looking for the digital Abyss of this problem, I recommend mtg-forum.de, a german Website full of horrible builds and frustration piloting those, moderated by people who either red-flag article-Links as "SPAM" or erase COMPLETE POSTS if they contain named links (also if the linked content is ENGLISH and not german; sadly no joke)

This is just a personal statement on budget lists, so take it only with a grain of salt, gentlemen.

Appreciate the feedback, and don't think i have asked those kind of questions (building elves a different way etc) relating to Miracles.

I like to think i can look critically at myself in games of magic and where matches were lost, the key turns and obviously not having the best version is going to cost me. Obviously thats all being said now and not after losing to burn or something of that nature or exactly lethal in extra turns of a super close game. Though im fairly sure people in here would pull me up for that line of thinking.

Im not even going to look at that site i think, as you put it its merely a temporary financial gap i want to bridge in the best way possible. Maybe i wasn't clear enough on that in the first place.

[crovakiet]

With the expected meta shift post-ban, is it still correct to run a full set of Red Blasts in the 75?

No because black/green/discard/decay becomes a thing again.

[mort-]

No because black/green/discard/decay becomes a thing again.

Hello Spell Pierce, old Friend :)
I sure hope that the abomination that is md Redblast will die down now.

[Mackan]

Hello Spell Pierce, old Friend :)
I sure hope that the abomination that is md Redblast will die down now.

Spell Pierce was never good in the first place. Spell Snare on the other hand...

[oarsman]

I sure hope that the abomination that is md Redblast will die down now.

Don't bet on it.

[YamiJoey]

T1 Shaman
T1 Island
T2 Liliana -> discard Spell Snare.

Seems legit.

[Quasim0ff]

Hello Spell Pierce, old Friend :)
I sure hope that the abomination that is md Redblast will die down now.

http://www.mtgpulse.com/event/15987#224202

Grand Prix Paris, Feb. 16th, 2014 just happened. They would like a word with you.