[SCD] Worldgorger Dragon Combo

[Jander78]

Oona/duskmantle/whatever help you win with just an extra entomb. If you have a snapcaster out but can't mill your library, that is quite important.

You can Entomb for Cunning Wish and win with a Snapcaster Mage in play or in hand. You can also Brainstorm your entire deck with one in the graveyard and a Snapcaster in play.

Jander, if I wanted to play a CMC 3 reanimation spell I'd just pick up TinFins.

As stated before, Necromancy allows this deck to win at instant speed, in response to hate. I don't think anyone is saying this is better than TinFins, it's a different style deck that may or may not work as of yet in Legacy. Time and testing will tell.

[pfiremc13]

You can Entomb for Cunning Wish and win with a Snapcaster Mage in play or in hand.

Fair enough, but it's still nice to be able to win if all you have is an entomb.

[EunB]

You can also Brainstorm your entire deck with one in the graveyard and a Snapcaster in play.

Snapcaster will still exile the Brainstorm, so that won't work.

[death]

Except, Jander, that wouldn't work in Finn's case. He would need 2 SCM + 2 CWish + X Intuition and a Stroke in the sideboard. With an Oona build, you free up 2 slots in the main deck and 1 in the sideboard.

Regarding the FoW/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy split, I can't argue on that. I guess that depends on what decks you're up against and only the pilot can figure out the perfect mix. My sb includes discard.

I'd like to hear reports from those rocking Baleful Strix, which to me the card is comparable to Coiling Oracle in Aluren. I'm on the Griselbrand camp.

[Jander78]

Snapcaster will still exile the Brainstorm, so that won't work.

Right! My mistake.

Except, Jander, that wouldn't work in Finn's case. He would need 2 SCM + 2 CWish + X Intuition and a Stroke in the sideboard. With an Oona build, you free up 2 slots in the main deck and 1 in the sideboard.

Regarding the FoW/Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy split, I can't argue on that. I guess that depends on what decks you're up against and only the pilot can figure out the perfect mix. My sb includes discard.

I'd like to hear reports from those rocking Baleful Strix, which to me the card is comparable to Coiling Oracle in Aluren. I'm on the Griselbrand camp.

I'm not sure why you would need 2 Snapcaster and 2 Cunning Wish (1+1 works fine too), but you're right that Oona frees up some space. Snapcaster and Cunning Wish are nice because they are actually functional when drawn, but there are good points on Oona stopping the loop with Entomb and saving deck space, so definitely needs more testing.

In the limited testing I've done with Strix, I've really liked it. It provides an early blocker giving you a longer game against certain decks, it's fuel to flashback Therapy, and gives you a decent combo enabler.

[death]

In situations where you are able to go off with Intuition (2 WGD + SCM) and Animate Dead. With WGD in hand, SCM in the yard, loop ends with SCM flashing Intuition back (2 CWish + second copy of SCM).

Shameless plug: [WGD] Ub Cunning Dragon.

[Whippoorwill]

Have we considered forbidden alchemy? Or is Intuition just better?

How well can playing for instants from the graveyard instead of a conventional mill permanent work? There's some engine potential:

...
Forbidden Alchemy
...

Two people have brought up this card in the thread, but I don't think anyone responded to it.

I ended up starting with a Grixis build on paper then built UB when I put the actual deck together. I wasn't happy with the result so I went back to Grixis. So far I'm much happier with the results. The deck can win fast, but it also doesn't need to.

Grixis Dragon:
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
3 Gemstone Mine
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Shivan Gorge
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta

3 Snapcaster Mage
1 Scholar of Athreos
1 Oona, Queen of the Fae
2 Worldgorger Dragon
1 Kederekt Leviathan

3 Thoughtseize

4 Entomb
4 Brainstorm
4 Izzet Charm
3 Forbidden Alchemy
3 Force of Will
2 Dig Through Time

3 Dack Fayden

2 Animate Dead
2 Dance of the Dead
2 Necromancy

Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pyroclasm
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sire of Insanity
4 Other

I've only goldfished with the deck at this point, but Forbidden Alchemy has been quite good. I can use it to put things in the graveyard while finding what I may need. It also has Flashback which is useful when comboing off to find another creature or more instants. It also goes quite well with Dig Through Time.

Izzet Charm is there for all 3 modes. It acts as an early counter, kills problematic creatures (Deathrite, Thalia, etc) and filters cards, potentially putting more creatures in the grave.

Dack is there for the looting, but he isn't that important. If I were to cut him, I would replace him with 2 Intuition and 1 Dig Through Time.

6 reanimation spells and 2 Dragons may seem low, but I haven't really had trouble finding them with all the draw/search.

[Finn]

Jander's 75

4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize

4 Baleful Strix
2 Snapcaster Mage
3 Worldgorger Dragon

4 Animate Dead
3 Necromancy
4 Entomb

2 Cunning Wish
3 Intuition
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder

4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Tropical Island
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Nephalia Drownyard
2 Duskmantle, House of Shadow


Sideboard:
1 Stroke of Genius
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Misdirection
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crop Rotation
3 Pithing Needle
3 Pernicious Deed

I like Jander's list a heckuvalot. Jander, I am relieved to hear that you were able to do well without Force of Will. I will gladly cut it. Whippoorwill, your list does basically the same thing, but it is slower at everything. I am not sold on the green splash, but then what the hell do I know. It hinges on a single dual land with such a heavy influx of cards using it, and the land base is so taxed already. Crop Rotation may be better served as Living Wish though. I dunno. Lot of mana needed. Oh, and a Pact of Negation in there maybe. It is hard to know because the combo has weak spots where you don't have access to the board at the right time. I need more experience. But yeah. This looks like how my deck should have been.

[Amon Amarth]

Janders deck looks fucking sweet but the SB seems a bit heavy on the removal.

[Jander78]

I like Jander's list a heckuvalot. Jander, I am relieved to hear that you were able to do well without Force of Will. I will gladly cut it. Whippoorwill, your list does basically the same thing, but it is slower at everything. I am not sold on the green splash, but then what the hell do I know. It hinges on a single dual land with such a heavy influx of cards using it, and the land base is so taxed already. Crop Rotation may be better served as Living Wish though. I dunno. Lot of mana needed. Oh, and a Pact of Negation in there maybe. It is hard to know because the combo has weak spots where you don't have access to the board at the right time. I need more experience. But yeah. This looks like how my deck should have been.

The sideboard definitely needs work. I like the green splash, but if there's better alternatives in U/b, then we should look into those. It's really hard to replace Abrupt Decay, it's just a very strong card to bring in for a lot of matchups. This Misdirection should probably be a Pact of Negation, good call there. I'm definitely open to sideboard suggestions as it needs work. Need more testing to understand matchups and cards that we're weak against and what cards are best suited to handle them. Crop Rotation was in there to win mid-combo against cards like Spirit of the Labyrinth, but that may be a too specific situation to include it.

[Vacrix]

Janders deck looks fucking sweet but the SB seems a bit heavy on the removal.

Not sure if its worth the slot but Entomb and Cabal Therapy means x1 Narcomoeba turns an extra Entomb into +1 Therapy. Also could be in certain situations a surprise blocker for things .. namely Goblin Lackey and unflipped Delver.

[Amon Amarth]

The sideboard definitely needs work. I like the green splash, but if there's better alternatives in U/b, then we should look into those. It's really hard to replace Abrupt Decay, it's just a very strong card to bring in for a lot of matchups. This Misdirection should probably be a Pact of Negation, good call there. I'm definitely open to sideboard suggestions as it needs work. Need more testing to understand matchups and cards that we're weak against and what cards are best suited to handle them. Crop Rotation was in there to win mid-combo against cards like Spirit of the Labyrinth, but that may be a too specific situation to include it.

There is also Slaughter Pact if you wanted to diversify your removal. Stifle is good against Crypts-like effects but unneeded most likely. Coffin Purge is pretty sweet too if you're wanting (not sure Dragon does) wishable GY hate that also has synergy with Intuition.The manabase does look greedy too. An extra Tropical in the MD or SB would help but if you still want to have protection against Surgical Extraction, Bayou might be better.

[Cybey]

I've been very excited about the unbanning of WGD, and have been reading the various threads here, trying to abuse him. Mainly, I'm wondering how we cope with a surgical extraction. Is there still a path to victory when the dragons are in exile? I remember that in Tin Fins (in the earlier days) we were experimenting with Pull from Eternity, which could in fact be a Cunning Wish target. However, that would require a white splash of course, which I don't think the current manabase can support without being too greedy.

[Darkenslight]

I've been very excited about the unbanning of WGD, and have been reading the various threads here, trying to abuse him. Mainly, I'm wondering how we cope with a surgical extraction. Is there still a path to victory when the dragons are in exile? I remember that in Tin Fins (in the earlier days) we were experimenting with Pull from Eternity, which could in fact be a Cunning Wish target. However, that would require a white splash of course, which I don't think the current manabase can support without being too greedy.

You can change 8 lands out of the manabase for 4 Gemstone Mines and 4 Tendo Ice Bridge, which have an added bonus during the combo turn, as neither ETBT, which gives you added flexibility in the combo turn, but are slightly weaker until you go off. Then you can go a BUG base with Wishable targets in the board, such as KGrip and Wipe Away and Pull from Eternity, or Silence. IT's an interesting thing to do, to be sure.

[Finn]

RE: 2 colors vs 3 colors

I think we are going to be using Gemstone Mines all up more often than the decks that find that card useful. Plus, fetchlands are very important in the world of Brainstorm. I think that if you go three colors, you are opening yourself to getting owned by Wasteland and company, and there is no way around that. Even with Jander's post-board splash only (which is a part-time splash), you saw us poking at the manabase for being closer to solid game 1 at the expense of teetering on the edge post-board.

Considering that we are leaning heavily on having the third piece of the combo be a happenstance sort of card (a.k.a. "a land"), and I feel pretty strongly that this is the best approach, I think you have to sell your soul to accommodate three colors with such a design. Death and Taxes is nearly certain to destroy this deck no matter what, but with three colors, you open the deck up to random game 1 victories by Goblins and Lands and whatever.

Deed and Decay are really the top rung of removal, but if this is where we start in the meta (losing commonly to mana denial), I think the deck is already out of tier 1 before other weaknesses are even discussed. And forget eschewing blue. You would be bringing a knife to a gun fight if you do that. So I suspect that we will have to explore options within those colors.

RE: Extirpate and company
I suppose you could Cunning Wish for Living Wish and have the 4th Dragon in the board. And frankly, Living Wish in the main deck seems kinda handy come to think of it, but, omg no. I bet we have to treat these cards just like Stifle, STP, Abrupt Decay, other instant-speed answers. You simply must force the opponent to discard these cards before going off. Honestly though, it is not a big deal. Look at the build we are fooling with at the moment. There is a whole lot of discard in there. Remember that the Therapies should average nabbing two cards per use when you consider flashback, Probe, etc. It's a lot.

[Surfinbird]

WGD combo made top16 in a 81 players tournament!

list here: http://www.eternalcatala.com/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=2711

[Kagehisa]

Fair enough, but it's still nice to be able to win if all you have is an entomb.

Entomb for Mystical Teaching.
Mystical Teaching for Cunning Wish (or Snapcaster Mage).
Cunning Wish for the kill.

[pfiremc13]

Entomb for Mystical Teaching.
Mystical Teaching for Cunning Wish (or Snapcaster Mage).
Cunning Wish for the kill.

I'm talking about Finn's list, which doesn't have mystical teachings

[Kagehisa]

I am suggesting Mystical Teachings, that's all.

[Jander78]

RE: 2 colors vs 3 colors

I think we are going to be using Gemstone Mines all up more often than the decks that find that card useful. Plus, fetchlands are very important in the world of Brainstorm. I think that if you go three colors, you are opening yourself to getting owned by Wasteland and company, and there is no way around that. Even with Jander's post-board splash only (which is a part-time splash), you saw us poking at the manabase for being closer to solid game 1 at the expense of teetering on the edge post-board.

Considering that we are leaning heavily on having the third piece of the combo be a happenstance sort of card (a.k.a. "a land"), and I feel pretty strongly that this is the best approach, I think you have to sell your soul to accommodate three colors with such a design. Death and Taxes is nearly certain to destroy this deck no matter what, but with three colors, you open the deck up to random game 1 victories by Goblins and Lands and whatever.

Deed and Decay are really the top rung of removal, but if this is where we start in the meta (losing commonly to mana denial), I think the deck is already out of tier 1 before other weaknesses are even discussed. And forget eschewing blue. You would be bringing a knife to a gun fight if you do that. So I suspect that we will have to explore options within those colors.

RE: Extirpate and company
I suppose you could Cunning Wish for Living Wish and have the 4th Dragon in the board. And frankly, Living Wish in the main deck seems kinda handy come to think of it, but, omg no. I bet we have to treat these cards just like Stifle, STP, Abrupt Decay, other instant-speed answers. You simply must force the opponent to discard these cards before going off. Honestly though, it is not a big deal. Look at the build we are fooling with at the moment. There is a whole lot of discard in there. Remember that the Therapies should average nabbing two cards per use when you consider flashback, Probe, etc. It's a lot.

Honestly, I think sticking to U/b is probably the way to go. Green adds some nice removal options, but drawing that Trop (and / or Bayou) is always annoying in opening hands of Trop + Drownyard x2. I think switching out Deed / Decay for Engineered Explosives / Massacre, might be a good start. Also, Living Wish is a sorcery, so there will be no CWishing for it! :)

Something like this:
1 Stroke of Genius
3 Massacre
1 Dismember
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Wipe Away
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
3 Engineered Explosives