It's been awhile since I've posted in here, but I just wanted to say how happy it makes me that our beloved Hymns and Lilianas are a thing again!
3 green sources were enough before, not sure of the motivation behind swapping a Sea for a Trop. Another option besides the 4th Sea is a Creeping Tar Pit main. It's a meta call, certainly, but I've played it before because I felt like 19 lands was just a little too light. It's a spell that happens to tap for mana, poorly.Originally Posted by btm10
I'm really sceptical about Tasigur. It has the same Jace bounce problems Tombstalker has but with none of the evasion and a huge, huge weakness to Karakas. Yup, that dude is legendary.
Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.
Hey Guys,
before I go back to my traditional pre-Khans list with 2 Tombstalker I want to test 2 DTT in that slot. I really like that it ups the Delver & FoW count which is something the deck really needs. Also finding the right outs in different situations is really nice. DTT is no dud but it finds you 1-2 dudes or dude + removal...
I will tell you later about my results.
Greetings
Currently playingEldrazi
If anyone is interested in going back to Tombstalkers, I would recommend that they give Necropolis Fiend a try. Sure, it's 1 Delve more and a 4/5 instead of a 5/5, but if you ever get to untap with 1-2 cards in your graveyard, it shuts down most offenses that decks in Legacy can offer.
I do love me some Tombstalker, but Necropolis Fiend has just been better for me whenever I played it.
I was intrigued by Fiend when I saw him, but recalling how I use Tombstalker, I think the 1 power and so the difference between a 4 turn and a 5 turn clock is relevant. The question of if it's more relevant than the ability to kill creatures, I'm not sure, but aren't we on offense more then defense?
"The Ancients teach us that if we can but last, we shall prevail."
Kaysa, Elder Druid of the Juniper Order
What are people's take on Sylvan Library in the 75 - MB vs SB? It's always been in my 75, and always in my SB, but almost always finds its way into postboard games. I suspect it's personal preference, but wanted to see if there are any strong opinions on this. Thx.
Sylvan Library is worth running in the main 60. I hardly ever side it out, and in fact wonder if I should be running more copies. If you somehow end up with extras you can just pitch it to Liliana.
I think the key is to compare the cards in matchups where they're *relevant*, e.g. Jund and other Delver decks. I think that Tasigur being easier to cast is a huge bonus in his favor, and the ability could make a big difference since these games can often end in top-deck wars. Against White/Jace decks you'd be siding both out so it's kind of a moot point.
Against RUG for example, being able to cast Tasigur for only one mana could be a huge deal since you have to deal with Daze, Stifle, and Wasteland.
In any case, I'm going to reserve judgement until I get some real world testing done.
I've always felt a little light on green, especially postboard, with only 3 sources. Against Blade I typically board in Krosan Grip, Maelstrom Pulse, 2 Golgari Charm and occasionally a second Sylvan Library, and generally drop some combination of Forces and Dazes to make room. And it's not just Blade; Jund sees Pulse, Charm, and Library come in, etc. Unlike the blue and black cards, I hardly ever board Goyfs, Decays, or Library out. So while we're relatively light on green MD, the postboard configuration tends to be greener and the 4th green source has been important in supporting that.
I'm skeptical of the Delve creatures in general, especially because they're fighting for space with Dig Through Time. I've got a lot more confidence that Dig is going to provide the staying power we need against Blade and Miracles and that True-Name Nemesis, Quirion Dryad, Vendilion Clique, or Scavenging Ooze (in that order of likelihood) are the 13th-14th threats we want.I'm really sceptical about Tasigur. It has the same Jace bounce problems Tombstalker has but with none of the evasion and a huge, huge weakness to Karakas. Yup, that dude is legendary.
I was pretty sold on 1 main, 1 board pre-Cruise and am back there now. Sylvan Library is right up there with Goyf, DRS, and Abrupt Decay as a reason to blay BGx for me and it plays a huge role in the mirror as well as against midrange and control by enabling the mid-to-late game.
Last edited by btm10; 01-23-2015 at 02:53 PM. Reason: Writing quality...
I'm going to try him in Jund/Junk; but for a tempo deck of sorts I think he's too weak. He can't land til T3, he is weak to karakas (and that's a tough MU already) and you already reliably find your Goyfs. He makes more sense in a midrange deck that beats up on Maverick/D&T so you can afford the extra weakness and where you reliably stall the game to where his large mana reqs come into play. BUG Delver trying to pay 4 mana reliably is far different than a deck with 22+ lands with mana-dudes and such.
IMO, you can run Stalker; he's still good (and going to be better) in the following meta; but Tasigur is purely a midrange-deck beast if he makes it to legacy (which I'm trying to do.)
I took this list to a top 4 finish at a local 34-man 6-round tournament this Saturday:
20 Lands (4/2/1 sea/bayou/trop 4 waste 3/3/3 verdant/misty/delta)
4/4/4 Delver / DRS / Tarmogoyf
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Sylvan Library
2 Liliana of the Veil
4/4/4/4/4/4 Ponder / Bstorm / Daze/ FoW / Hymn / Decay
SB:
4 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
2 Null Rod
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Spell Pierce
1 V. Clique
1 Sylvan Library
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Dread of Night
Matches:
0-2 Rw Painter Stone
2-0 UB Reanimator
2-1 UWr Miracles
2-1 RG Lands (Loam, P. Fire, Gamble, Dark Depths/Thespian Stage etc.)
2-1 Death and Taxes
ID into Top 8 - - -
2-0 Rw Painter Stone (same opponent as round 1, won thanks to nut draws)
0-2 UWr Delver
Top 8 Decks: Me (BUG); UWr Delver; ANT x2; BW Midrange; Dredge; Rw Painter Stone; Elves.
The deck performed well all day with the exception of my semi-finals match against UWr Delver where my luck finally ran out and I got flooded. Normally UWr Delver should be an easier matchup, especially with the sideboard I was running. I think the matchup is probably at least 60-40 in BUG's favor, but drawing 5~ lands in a row means defeat in any matchup. Anyways, BUG is once again well-positioned and will quickly make its way back to DTB/Tier 1 status.
-Sylvan Library was key to many victories. It is 100% worth running at least 1 copy in the maindeck, and definitely 2-3 copies belong somewhere in the 75. This card is how BUG Delver can consistently beat Miracles.
-Previously I ran a 1/1 split of Null Rod with Pithing Needle, but actually I find Null Rod to be more useful, hitting multiple problematic cards. I would definitely recommend running at least 1 to shut off Equipment and Aether Vial.
-Dread of Night is definitely worth running if you have Death and Taxes in your local metagame.
-I might cut 1 copy of Disfigure for something else, but I wanted to increase the likelihood of killing problem creatures on turn 1, e.g. opposing DRS.
-Tasigur gets my thumbs up. To be honest I didn't actually resolve him many times this tournament, but I did get to cast him a handful of times the previous night during the local Legacy 4-round FNM where he definitely proved useful. Casting him on Turn 3 for 1 mana is very easy... I think it would be fine to run 2 copies if you expect to see a fair amount of RUG/BUG Delver, BUG Control, and Jund decks. More copies of Tarmogoyf is good for these matchups, especially if it dodges Abrupt Decay. Anyone on the fence about him should definitely give him some testing time, I think you'll become quickly convinced of his power as an option for creature slots 13-14.
edit: updated Top 8 information.
Last edited by wcm8; 01-25-2015 at 05:33 PM.
Who won?
Hey Sourcers. Finished top 32 playing Team America at the Washington DC PIQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=79247). I played to 5-3 with the following results:
RD 1: Miracles, win 2-0
RD 2: Dark Maverick, win 2-1
RD 3: ANT, win 2-1
RD 4: UWR Blade (Kevin Jones), loss 0-2
RD 5: Sneak and Show, loss 2-1 (had turn 1 S&T with Force back up the two games he won)
RD 6: Aggro Loam, win 2-1
RD 7: Solidarity (Feline Longmore), win 2-1
RD 8: Death and Taxes, loss 0-2 (played poorly: game 1 kept one lander on the draw not knowing my opponent's deck and he goes turn 1 vial and turn 2 Wasteland, oops; game 2 mull to five).
Some general thoughts:
-Deck felt great all day; didn't feel outclassed by any particular matchup. I am chalking the Sneak and Show stomping to variance.
-Hymn to Tourach and Wasteland are still a thing.
-The top tables had lots of Dig Through Time, True-Name Nemesis, and Young Pyromancer decks.
-Some cards that underperformed were Dimir Charm, Jace (board seems fine, main was bad), Dark Confidant, and Pithing Needle. I think I want Dig Through Time, more Disfigures and more Golgari Charms. I am also going to test running a Jitte out of the board.
Cheers.
I'd also cut the Charm and add a singleton DTT.
Don't you felt the absence of the 8th cantrip or of a strong finisher like Tombstalker? I do believe that the split TStalker / DTT should work well and I'd let Bob at home and Jace sitting in board.
TEAM MtG Berlin
"Dredge isn't a deck, it's public masturbation with graveyard triggers."
I went to a local Legacy tournament in Memphis, TN yesterday where I made Top 8 with BUG Delver. 39 Players, 6 Rounds of Swiss, Cut to Top 8. Here is the decklist I used for reference:
Sultai Delver Nick Loiacono 1st Place at StarCityGames.com Invitational Qualifier on 9/7/2014
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 True-Name Nemesis
Lands (18)
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (28)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
2 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Sylvan Library
1 Disfigure
2 Envelop
1 Force of Will
1 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 Toxic Deluge
The only thing I changed was which fetchlands I ran 2 of. I wasn't intending to but my friend was coming and I knew he was packing Surgical Extraction and he has a tendency to use them on Fetch Lands more often than most people do. I had very little experience with the deck in the pre-TC format and after extensive research this list was the one I liked the look of the best. I didn't make very many notes after each match so I'll just give a brief overview of the games.
Round 1 - UR Delver - WIN
This matchup was pretty easy the whole way through. My threats were much better than his and abrupt decay destroys their deck. I remember he got a double Swiftspear start, but an EOT Disfigure followed up by Liliana of the Veil put me ahead. He was pretty much behind the entire time. He made some play mistakes like Lightning Bolting my Liliana at 1 loyalty instead of attacking it with his creature, but he said he was fairly new to the format. In another game, he killed my threats, and I killed his, then I stuck a lonely Deathrite Shaman that kept zapping his life total while he kept bricking on his draw phases. He eventually found a removal spell for the Deathrite but I found another Deathrite and zapped him the rest of the way.
Round 2 - Dredge - WIN
Game 1 was super easy. I already knew what he was playing before the round even started so I planned to aggressively mulligan to green mana source + deathrite shaman. luckily I had both of those in my opening hand and I was on the play. I just kept removing stuff from his graveyard and cast Force of Will on his Putrid Imp and it was GG.
Game 2 he destroys me on the play. I kept a risky hand and failed to draw land. I cast a Pithing Needle on his Cephalid Coliseum but he just casted breakthrough and discarded his hand. Then he dredged into Ichorid + 2 Narcomoeba + 2 Bridge From Below over the next 2 turns.
Game 3 I lead with turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. He led with land + Lion's Eye Diamond. I let the LED resolve and when he cast Putrid Imp I Force of Will'd that. He untaps and casts Faithless Looting, I countered with Envelop. He casts another LED and flashbacks Faithless Looting with no cards in hand and put 2 meaningless cards in the GY. I cast a 2nd Deathrite Shaman and a Tarmogoyf and a turn or two later he scooped.
Round 3 - Death and Taxes - WIN
This was the craziest match ever.
Game 1 he gets stuck on Plains and Port. Good for him, bad for me, because we were killing each other's threats like crazy. But since he wasn't drawing land, he just kept drawing more and more gas.
Game 2 I mulligan to 4. He keeps 7 in hand. he never finds a single white mana source. I started off with land deathrite shaman. he wastelands me. I don't remember all the specifics of this game as it was very intense, but it basically came down to 2 things. a well timed pithing needle when he had double AEther Vial in play and zero white mana sources. he got to 4 lands over the course of the game but they were all colorless lands. I eventually got enough threats on the table to kill him.
Game 3 Totally relieved that I pulled that one out (who knew my out was that he doesn't draw white mana over a ton of turns? lol) I open my hand and AGAIN mulligan to 4. He keeps 7, and starts off with Karakas + pass. My hand was fetch land, fetch land, wasteland, ponder. I draw for turn and wasteland his karakas. he draws, and passes. no more lands!!! I cast ponder into a bunch of stuff while he sat there with no lands and started discarding Flickerwisps. No idea why he kept that hand but I squeeze out another win. He eventually does find a land, but unfortunately for him it turned out to be a Rishadan Port. Turn 1 wasteland on a mulligan to 4 FTW!
Round 4 - Sultai POD - WIN
That's right....Birthing Pod in Legacy. It's a thing, and the guy who played it against me was a very good player and made me earn every single inch of that win. Kudos to him for an insane match of magic.
Game 1 was nothing special. I killed some of his guys and played my own and got there with a pretty aggressive start.
Game 2 was nuts. I ended up casting a true-name nemesis and kept attacking him until i put him down to 3 life. He made play after play turn after turn to buy himself more turns, more outs, and keep his life total floating above 3. He eventually found himself in a Recurring Nightmare loop that I was eventually able to get my way out of. He then wipes my board with Pernicious Deed. I cast a Grafdigger's Cage. The next two turns I hard cast Force of Will on whatever he played and got a delver in play. His life total was dead to a flipped delver. I showed him a Ponder on top and he extended his hand in defeat. Turn after turn, this match was incredibly well played between both myself and my opponent. I believe we found the best lines of play every single turn and little to no mistakes were made on both sides. Needless to say I was very relieved that I was able to survive that many turns with a delver deck. Insane match.
Round 5 - Jund - ID
My opponent and I were the only undefeated players. We both agreed to draw this round since we were guaranteed Top 8.
Round 6 - UW Stoneblade - WIN
My opponent wanted to draw, but I wanted to play for the ability to play 1st in the Top 8.
One of our games was incredibly well played on his part. I led off with Turn 1 Delver, Turn 2 Tarmogoyf, Turn 3 True-Name Nemesis. He stopped all of it and killed me.
The other 2 games I don't really remember except Game 3. He didn't do much, and died to Delver + True-Name Nemesis. Turns out that even though I won the match, his tie breakers were good enough that he made top 8 anyway.
At this point, I was incredibly happy with not only my own performance playing a deck I'm not super familiar with, but also with the incredible amount of luck I had in a couple of my matchups. I played my best every single round and I was sitting in 1st place going into Top 8.
Top 8
Quarter Finals - UR Delver - LOSS
Game 1 I lead off with Delver (doesn't flip) into double Delver (doesn't flip again), into 4th Delver (doesn't flip either). he played his own delver and young pyromancer. I had 4 delver on the table and thought it best to see if he would trade his delver and pyromancer for 2 of my delver leaving me with 2 more to flip and kill him with. He traded. I didn't flp my delvers again, he played a pyromancer and killed another Delver. I don't remember how the 4th delver died, but I realized shortly after that not leaving my 4 delvers back was most certainly the wrong play. I go a little bit on tilt and tell myself I need to make better decisions if I'm going to pull out a win here. I ended up finding double Tarmogoyf and kept attacking into Pyromancer and Elemental tokens until he was finally forced to block his board away and I win the game.
Game 2 he leads off with Swiftspear on 1. I had a delver in hand but I elected to hold up stifle instead. He played a basic land next turn. and from there I was behind the whole game. none of my threats lived and he killed me with multiple swiftspears and burn.
Game 3 was incredibly tense. I don't remember everything that happened during this game but I remember it came down to the Sylvan Library I almost boarded out going into game 3. I was able to survive at 6 for a bunch of turns trying to find something to win the game with. my mana sources were low the whole game so I was kind of behind. for a bunch of turns i was drawing junk off my library holding abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse. I had a flipped delver at this point and i abrupt decayed his pyromancer. he responds with a lightning bolt on my delver. I then maelstrom pulsed his token. feeling really bad that i had to pulse 1 token, but my line of thinking was i can't allow him to ping me with a token and then Lightning Bolt me. I have to make him find 2 bolts or find deathrite shaman before I lose this game. Again, more junk on top of my library with Sylvan Library like land, land, daze. he finds a delver flips it, and in the last crucial turn I go to my sylvan library and find a ponder. cast ponder and shuffle. draw. brainstorm. cast brainstorm. land land land and i extend my hand in defeat.
I forget which game it was but in one of our games, my opponent cast brainstorm during his upkeep with a delver in play. I stifle the delver trigger. Next turn he does the same thing again. Brainstorm during upkeep and I stifled the delver trigger again. It bought be some time, and I thought it was a pretty cool play.
I had a ton of fun in this tournament and lost to the same UR Delver player I defeated in Round 1 of the Swiss. I was happy to see him take a round 1 loss and make it to top 8 and get his revenge on me. We had a really great match and people who were watching complimented on my skill as a player. My opponent told me that going into the match he was scared to play me because not only had I defeated him in Round 1, but he felt my deck was just much much better than his. It was pretty nice to gain some recognition from local players on my skill as a player. i've been working a lot harder at getting better at Magic lately and it seems like that hard work is starting to pay off. All of my opponents were very friendly, enjoyable to play against, and I extended them that same courtesy. I look forward to the next Memphis event which will be a SCG Legacy IQ!
My final placement in the tournament is still unknown to me at this point, because I did not stay until the Finals were over. I had an hour and a half drive and work the next morning, so I took my winnings and headed home. I'll get the results in a couple of days and when I do, I'll come back and post what place I got.
Overall I felt the deck was really solid. I really liked the maindeck disfigure. Liliana almost didn't make into my board originally as I decided against tweaking for this event. I mulliganed a lot in some matchups. I felt like 18 land was a little low, but that's the Delver curse. I would most certainly run this deck again in the future. I don't think I would change the maindeck any. True-Name Nemesis was a house and way better than Tombstalker. Stifle felt pretty good in Game 1's but got boarded out a lot as it was irrelevant in most of my post boarded matchups. I would run stifle again over hymn to tourach. however, I would consider cutting the 4th stifle for the 19th land. It might help the deck run a little bit smoother and not have to mulligan as often.
That's it for my report!
@drocker23: Shouldn't you side out Stifles in the UR Delver matchup?
I mean, there's some stuff you can do with Stifle, but half the plays are card disadvantage (Stifle Delver trigger, Swiftspear trigger, Pyromancer trigger) and leaving it open, as you mentioned, can be a hughe loss of tempo. How did you board?
Here's what I envision. please give me thoughts and critique. really not sure about countertop...what mtchups would it be good to transform into bug control countertop against?what do you think of the rest?
Lands (18)
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 wasteland
4 strand
Creatures (14)
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 tasigur
4 delver
Spells (28)
4 force of will
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 spell pierce
1 flusterstorm
1 liliana
3 ponder
2 Disfigure
4 stifle
Sideboard
1 abrupt decay (hits RIP)
2 needle (Merfolk, DNT, fetches better with thoughteize, +watch for vial)
2 graffdiggers cage (dredge, reanimator, elves)
2 Golgari Charm (Maverick, miracles, RUG, DNT Watch for RIP , CB, TNN)
1 liliana ( Maverick, rug,bug, DNT show and tell)
2 toxic deluge (Maverick, RUG, DNT watch for TNN)
3 cb 2 top (burn, miracles, SNT not against vial) or 4 thoughtseize 1 flusterstorm
Other options: hymn, Nihil Spellbomb (reanimator), true name
Some ideas:
1. Mana base looks shaky. I'd definitely play 3x Trop in order o have consistent access to green.
2. Casting Liliana will be hard with the current mana base.
3. 3x Ponder and 3x Deathrite just looks wrong. Cantrips make you draw better cards and Deathrite is kind of the reason we play BUG Delver anyway.
4. Main deck Fluster should probably be either of the cards mentioned in 3, or a Spell Pierce (more versatile card).
5. 2x Top, 3x Counterbalance seems too low in numbers to be able to really rely on. If you want these, you should perhaps play more. Maybe swap the main deck Sylvan for a Top, that already helps. Sylvan is great, but of you want to be Counterbalancing you probably need the Top instead.
That's my 0,02$. Make of it what you will.
Game 2:
If I recall correctly, what I boarded OUT was:
4 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce, 2 Gitaxian Probe
If I recall correctly, what I boarded IN was:
1 Disfigure, 1 Force of Will, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 1 Maelstrom Pulse, 1 Sylvan Library, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 True-Name Nemesis
I was on the draw in game 2 and I believe game 2 is the game where I stifled his delver trigger twice after he brainstormed. I know for sure Stifle was in in game 2 because I held up stifle turn 1, and wanted to be able to play delver around Daze and with Stifle backup for what I hoped would be his fetchland activation. The games also went kind of long and grindy so I felt like my conditional counterspells like Daze and Spell Pierce would just be played around and ineffecient. I mean other than lightning bolt the cards I really care about anyway coming out of his deck are his creatures. So I was thinking it'd be okay to leave Stifle in game 2 try and get him to stumble on lands so I can pull ahead.
Game 3:
If I recall correctly, what I boarded OUT was:
4 Stifle, 2 Thoughtseize
If I recally correctly, what I boarded IN was:
4 Daze, 2 Spell Pierce
Game 3 I'm pretty sure I changed my list by taking out the 4 stifles and bringing 4 daze back in. I was on the play in Game 3 so I wanted Daze to stop his early plays. I also think that Thoughtseize came out to bring Spell Pierce back in.
I'm not saying that my sideboarded choices were correct because they probably were not. But at least now you understand what I was thinking at the time. As I mentioned before, I do not have a lot of experience playing WITH a Delver deck. I have a lot of experience playing AGAINST them, but I never really understood their whole sideboard plan of when to board out Daze, Force of Will, and Spell Pierce. So my thinking was if the game is gonna go long, I just want hard counters to push something through. In Game 3 I wanted to tempo him out with Wasteland and Daze. His hand was full of removal for my early plays, but I was able to push a Sylvan Library through which I thought was more important that the Tarmogoyf that got countered the turn before. Unfortunately my Sylvan Library didn't get me all the way there. Almost though. It was a tight match and thank goodness the UR Delver deck doesn't run Wasteland otherwise I would have lost a lot earlier when I stumbled on mana early in Game 3.
If anyone has any tips or advice on how to sideboard properly when you're playing a delver deck with Daze, Wasteland, Force of Will, Stifle, and Spell Pierce, I would really appreciate the help so I can learn how to make better decisions when playing a delver deck. I had so much fun with this build that I think I wanna play it for a while over the other builds of Temur and Jeskai.
Putting Daze back in on the play is what I usually do also.
On the draw I would probably have sided: -4 Daze, -4 Stifle, +8 useful cards (guys, removal, maybe Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce to try and stop his Bolts).
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
