mm Ein, I find it hard to believe that you don't play any Containment Priest.
It autopilots against Elves, reanimator and Show and Tell.. what did you cut it for?
Basically in early game you have two problems: Chalice of the void and Trinisphere.Originally Posted by wtfzero
The rest of the deck are totally under your control.
You have to counter this 2 cards.
In late game you have to counter Stuff of Nin and Studd of Domination.
Ohter bad cards are: Lightining Greaves and Metalworker for MUD 'cause if active the worker your opponent can cast more spell and you don't have enough counter.
I don't think the MUD matchup is easy at all, there are more than a few problem cards at every stage of the game. A few variants of MUD exist, the main ones being 12Post and Welder.
Playing against MUD Post is a little like playing against the normal Post deck. They build up a huge manabase and start going over the top. The difference is that their "over the top" isn't quite as big as an Emrakul, but their cards are still too scary to let into play and they generally outside of Counterbalance range. It's hard to keep the threats off the table, especially when Chalice@1 is such a must-counter card. I played MUD for a long time, and the positive Miracles MU is pretty much the reason I did so.
Welder MUD might be a little better because Terminus can get 2-for-1 value against the namesake Goblin. The threats are a little smaller but this runs Cavern of Souls.
Countering the Chalices and removing everything is the best plan, I think. Keep that up long enough to land a win condition and the point could be yours. Don't get your hopes up. An uncounterable Sundering Titan can come out of nowhere.
Having said that the 12 post version is terrible for our deck:
I quote, the matchup is not easy.
With Chalice and Trinisphere in the first 2 turn we are almost dead.
For me is one of the worst matchup....but....if we counter chalice and trinisphere in the early game, the matchup is not an automatically loss. We can play and his creatures are under control (only Sundering Titan bother us when come into play).
In g2 I side out the Counterbalance because, as you said, more of his converted mana cost go out of our cards.
In addition, i have try to side out the Ponder to decrease the card with converted mana cost 1, in this way I have "only" 12 cards @1 (sensei, brainstorm, plowshares) (I don't play REB) and I'm satisfied in this time...
For the MUD player are normal cast a Chalice @1 in the first turn 'cause have 8 soland...and I don't want have potential 16 deadly cards in the deck.
He answered that in the comment of his article and his arguments are sound: Play Containment Priest - in pace of a Clique or so - if you face a meta with Sneak and Reanimator. You should be winning against Elves without the help of Containment Priest anyway. Priest is not really needed overall in a general catch-all build.
oh really?
Priest owns:
Show and Tell
Reanimator
Vial activation
Goblin lackey trigger
Natural Order
Green Sun Zenith
Ichorid
Dreaded return
Narcomeoba
Sounds like a generic catch-all SB card that would fit nicely into a general catch-all build.
We know Miracles is favored against Elves, but the MU is not as one-sided as one would think.
Ein's logic is that more and more people will attempt to abuse Dig, hence Omni-tell would eventually become more popular than Sneak and show. However, that's a prediction for Europe at best at this point in time. The Legacy community everywhere is still in a flux, trying to adjust.
Priest is good against Sneak, Reanimator, Elves, Dredge, and some Vial decks. Probably reasonable against Goblins (I have literally never played against it), okay against DnT. The problem with bringing it in Vs Vial decks is that Tribal decks do not rely on it, partly due to Cave, and DnT can just play their normal game of Magic where we don't get to play many cards, and Priest isn't going to do much when you're unable to cantrip efficiently, your opponent's dudes are all bigger, and they are restricting you to play one Spell a turn. The games where Containment Priest are good Vs DnT are not the games where I need help, they are the games where basically any reasonable card would do. And hell, Clique is also really good against Vial.
Also; I don't understand your comment about 'Only European players are trying to play Dig' or whatever. That makes absolutely no sense.
The conspiracy goes deeper than you might think.Can I pay you for not posting in this thread?
if we fear Delve we can still rely on RiP (and eventually helm)
I don't argue that Priests aren't good. They are. But so are other cards the catch-all list of Schönegger does not play at the moment. The list, how I understood it, is a general list that's for an open meta that's tuned to his predictions (take them or don't - but if you don't expect Sneak and Reanimator to be big players, Priest is probably not needed). If one argues that Priest is needed in a meta - well, go ahead. Still makes his list a "generic go-to list" whilst adaptions lead to meta-tuned 75's that all have their correct reasonings.
You are basically referring to Dredge, Vial, Elves, Sneak, Reanimator, right? The applications against Sneak and Reanimator are obvious and I stated that when they are present in ones meta, Priest makes total sense. But really? Dredge, Vial and Elves? I know I am not the experienced guy who knows it all. I lose quite a bit with the deck and it took me a long time to understand the difference between a good list and a sub-optimal list. I know that. And knowing this, I know that when playing correctly against D&T, it will still be a matchup that comes down to totally different things than soft-turning-off his vials. I mean yeah, it's better than not doing it but I'd rather try to kill the board dead and Entreat than playing a Priest. They don't kill me in reasonable time anyway. Against Elves, I also don't care about Priest turning off GSZ and NO. I care about being killed by being grinded out by a mass of little men because realistically, a good Elves player won't be Craterhoofing me anyway unless I am careless - and Priest might win me those games... but so does Terminus. And Dredge? From what I played, they also die to mass removals I can activate at instant speed or timely use of my already-existing removals and permission. I have never played against Goblins and I respect the deck but I am also not sure your problem is handling a Lackey activation: you can handle this with 4 maindecked Swords anyway. It's being overwhelmed and especially Goblins get blown out by a 1-mana Wrath effect. Please correct me if I am wrong... I know I am not the expert but I respect that Schönegger's list is a well-tuned general list for an open meta with the prediction that Omni will be the S&T deck of choice at the moment and Dig will be on the rise: From what I know and experienced with the deck... if you need Priest to win in the matchups that come down to them attacking you with a bunch of synergetic dudes, you are doing it wrong already.
And to be quite open about the topic: I find it a bit out of place, that you bring up a meta divide between EU and US into this debate. Legacy is a wide open format wherever you play it and you can face a bunch of D&T and Storm or whatever... in the US as well as you can face 3 rounds of Stoneblade in EU. No one ever said that one ABSOLUTELY MUST NOT play Priest in Miracles - as well as any other card. If it fits your meta, I guess all people here agree that you should go for it if it wins. It just has lost its place in a catch-all general list tuned to the prediction that Omni > Sneak and Reanimator < 5% of the meta.
Last edited by lsho; 02-01-2015 at 02:33 PM.
I also like Priest against Merfolk, Goblin and DnT because it commits the opponent to cast creatures with his lands instead of rishadan porting yours.
This gives you time to develop your Jace and Entreat
I feel we have more in agreement than in disagreement. We all respect Schönegger(Ein)'s list and his articles. Yes, he pushes for Ponder and I've learned to just accept his opinions, run the card, and move on. Yes, we all agree that Priest is a legitimate SB card choice for Miracles.
Now, your match-up analysis, some of the finer points I don't agree with, but it's really not that big of deal. I can go into it but it's too much effort and most likely won't go anywhere.
My understanding is that Miracles is well-represented in Europe, but vastly under-represented in the US. That's one example of how these two metas are different. It's fine if you make a prediction, then tune your list toward that. I certainly don't want to be the one to shift the discussion of a deck archtype to a discussion on the prediction itself. In other words, it's a moot point I accidentally brought in.
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SCG Indi is the first 500+ Legacy event after the banning. What does that mean for Miracles? Only 8 Miracles players made day 2. http://www.starcitygames.com/events/...breakdown.html 4 of the 8 Miracles players' lists were published. Of the 4, none finished top 32, 1 person has Legend build but -1 Venser, -1 Clique for +1 Baneslayer +1 Snapcaster. Rest are Ponder builds. The Ponder build using pre-banning list finished the worst in day 2 at 81st and it's the only Ponder build running 21 lands.
In the end of the day none of all this matters. 4-ponder, 23 lands, Baneslayer main, councils judgment?
If you sleeve up a descent list and play the deck well you go places. On the other hand if you don't know your sh1t and play poorly in certain situations none of the things you discuss will matter. It all boils down to playstyle, skill and adaptation.
For instance, the last tournament I played I had two Supreme Verdict in my board along side a bunch of cards that none of the lists posted here combine. On top of that I had flusterstorm main and played Mystic Gate. I made some strange choices according to you and yet I won that tournament even though I did not build my list from a SCG Article or from mtgpulse/tcdecks. Apparently, you can win magic tournaments with your own style and your own list.
Just agree to disagree and focus on playing better instead because that is the main thing that looses games.
Understanding matchups wins games too, and maybe the discussion about card choices can help people with that. The DnT mu is in no way a bye and actually close to 50/50, with Aether Vial being the best card for DnT.
Containment Priest is just a bad answer to it, because you can't use your Terminus effectively. Pithing Needle is really awesome though.
That the Top/CB/Terminus/Entreat shell wins games by itself should be clear to anyone who ever played the deck, that doesn't mean that one list can't be better than the other.
What I'm saying is that the lists you are running with maybe 1-2 cards variance does not matter more than actual play skill and legacy know-how. It doesn't matter if a player runs 4 ponders or 2 ponders and 1 council and 1 ee. In the end of the day both lists are just fine and wins games if you tap your cards when needed and play your spells in the right order.
hey guys.
would you say this is a good sideboard for a elves/DnT/Combo/delver meta ? Maindeck is 4 ponder list with 2 jace,2 counerspell, 1 councils judgement
3 Flusterstorm
2 Pyroclasm
2 Containmentpriest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Pyroblast
1 Vendilion Clique
1 disenchant
1 EE
1 Supreme Verdict
my problem is, i'm afraid to forgot the miracle-mirror. You guys think 3 fluster, 2 pyroblast, 1 clique, 1 disenchant and 1 ee its enough? It fits perfectly with my boarding plan to board out all 8 white spells (4 terminus/4 STP).
and how is your boarding plan/game plan vs DnT, elves? Do you remove the creatures asap or are you waiting for the "Big Bang" to remove them all with a terminus?
it would be nice if you could answer me my few questions.
Greetings
That's a lot of different questions.
1. Your SB
I would run 2 Flusterstorm and 2 Cliques. Clique is great in Miracles mirror. If you're that concerned about mirror, and since you're on the Ponder list, just run Ein's SB. Like..., if you're on Ein's exact MD list, and you want to make SB changes, you have to justify your change.
2. DnT
This is a very dynamic match-up, depending on the skill level of DnT player. For example, the skill level of Marc is very, very, high.
To start, from the Miracles side, you have to take Cataclysm into account. I am not going to write a detail analysis of the MU, but the video can be used for reference. Basically, when Vial activation happens with 2 counters on it, you sort of have to assume the worst. Revoker? Thalia? Spirit? Or just not as bad Serra Avenger.
3. Elves
The Elves combo is very, very, resilient. Yes, Miracles is favored, but it's not as one-sided as people say.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKVbRl0EV68 Duke's list is very different, but the important thing is his decision, patience, and how he gets himself out of situations. Hence, it's something for reference.
To conclude, just read Ein's articles: http://www.eternalcentral.com/there-...-sideboarding/
That match, by Reid Duke, is simply insane played. Incredible.
Great Reid omg
So I usually play Dark Maverick and have been doing well with it. Love the deck but really want to try and up my skills with playing more Blue decks.
Last week I took Miracles to the local event and went 3-1 losing to painter. I lost the third game playing around a blood moon and didn't fetch up double blue. So he had a nut draw and I'm unfamiliar with the deck.
Now my meta looks like this with some outliers here and there
3 TES
1 Reanimator
1 Sneak and Show
1 BURG Delver
1 UR delver
1 BUG delver
2 Death and Taxes
1 Elves
1 Mono Red Stax
1 UWR stoneblade
1 Maverick
1 Shardless BUG
1 R/W painter
1 U/G 12 Post
1 Infect
I used EINs stock sideboard but want to tune it more to my Meta. I think infect and Post are just terrible. So not sure what I can do there. I think containment priest might be good.
That Reid Duke video is why I think this format is so interesting and this deck is so cool. I'm excited to be going to my first legacy tournament tomorrow with Ein's updated list. Hope I don't mess it up too badly, I'm sure that the midrange decks will give me a tough time just because I can't be so single minded about taking them down.
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