[Primer/Deck] Pox

[jimmythegreek]

Have you guys tried 4 surgical extraction maindeck?

With discard and LD i think we could use it two ways: Aiming for the lands or the cards in the grave that are important for the opponent.

Against combo we can make them discard a piece of the combo and surgical it

Against control we can get rid of a card or try to disrupt the lands targeting fetchs or duals in the grave after a smallpox

Against aggro it can remove troublesome creatures after they hit the graveyard

What do you think?

I believe alot of these lists to be too tight and wanting to draw pox effects or (as in my list discard spells) to warrant surgicals main. What would you remove for the extractions?

[Chatto]

I am brewing a Rack Pox list, with 2-3 Surgical Extractions main, accompanied with 7-8 discard spells. I dropped Sinkhole for obvious reasons, so it was pretty easy to incorporate. I don't have a full list to show; still in the brewing-state

[Bosaapje]

Have you guys tried 4 surgical extraction maindeck?

With discard and LD i think we could use it two ways: Aiming for the lands or the cards in the grave that are important for the opponent.

Against combo we can make them discard a piece of the combo and surgical it

Against control we can get rid of a card or try to disrupt the lands targeting fetchs or duals in the grave after a smallpox

Against aggro it can remove troublesome creatures after they hit the graveyard

What do you think?

The problem that I have with mainboard Extractions is that they do nothing against the current boardstate and they're pretty bad topdecks late game. Yeah sure, you could waste their land and extract it but I would rather have something that could destroy a thing that they casted or destroy their hand. That way they also can't do nothing with their mana, just the same way if they didn't have mana.

And of course, it could be good sometimes and I think that you'll win a few games because of the Extractions but it's just not good enough.

[OmniStrata]

The problem that I have with mainboard Extractions is that they do nothing against the current boardstate and they're pretty bad topdecks late game. Yeah sure, you could waste their land and extract it but I would rather have something that could destroy a thing that they casted or destroy their hand. That way they also can't do nothing with their mana, just the same way if they didn't have mana.

And of course, it could be good sometimes and I think that you'll win a few games because of the Extractions but it's just not good enough.

^this^

GY hate game 1 serves almost no purpose unless you live in a Dredge only meta. Or you're a Helm of Obedience deck. Game 1 is best served controlling the board state. Game 1 against combo should be auto win for us who pack Duress/Inquisition of Kozilek and Hymn to Tourach.

Update: On second thought, an excellent way to kill their mana base and future draws would be Extirpate on their Fetchlands. 2 Extirpates would wreck 8 of their lands which could be more than half their mana base right there depending on the deck. Extirpate on their Wasted dual lands would also work forcing them to fetch basics. Last I checked, no deck runs less than four of a dual so you'd really be mana strangling them.

[beez]

My latest list. I played to 6-3 is last SCG Worchester and 7-3 at Legacy Champs, lost my last round at Legacy Champs to a friend I felt I would normally beat, would have liked to win that one for the top 16 finish. Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, or questions are welcome.

2 Bloodghast
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Life from the Loam
3 Entomb
4 Crop Rotation
4 Small Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Raven's Crime
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Inquizition of Kozilek
2 Cabal Therapy

1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Thespian Stage
1 Dark Depths
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Forest
2 Swamp
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest

SB:
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
2 Disfigure
1 Garruk Relentless
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Golgari Charm
2 Chains of Mephistopheles

Have you changed your list any after Treasure Cruises banning?

[jredelstein]

Have you changed your list any after Treasure Cruises banning?

I unfortunately have not had much of a chance to play Magic lately since I am getting married next month.

That list is actually mostly from before treasure cruise, the biggest changes I made for treasure cruise/UR Delver was to add the NoSB and second Tabernacle to the sideboard.

I still really like my list from July but I felt I need to add the dark depths combo to have a faster win condition as I was taking too many draws against slow Miracles players. The rest of the changes all stemmed from getting crop rotation main board with dark depths
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791

I may try going back to the July list for SCG Invitational in Richmond since there are 55 mins rounds and then see if I want the velocity dark depths offers for the following SCGs in Providence and Worchester in the coming months

[Bosaapje]

I unfortunately have not had much of a chance to play Magic lately since I am getting married next month.

That list is actually mostly from before treasure cruise, the biggest changes I made for treasure cruise/UR Delver was to add the NoSB and second Tabernacle to the sideboard.

I still really like my list from July but I felt I need to add the dark depths combo to have a faster win condition as I was taking too many draws against slow Miracles players. The rest of the changes all stemmed from getting crop rotation main board with dark depths
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=69791

I may try going back to the July list for SCG Invitational in Richmond since there are 55 mins rounds and then see if I want the velocity dark depths offers for the following SCGs in Providence and Worchester in the coming months

Congratulations on getting married!

How are the Bloodghasts for you? I never liked them because they can't block and I would rather have some removal or just a one off Spirit.

[jredelstein]

Congratulations on getting married!

How are the Bloodghasts for you? I never liked them because they can't block and I would rather have some removal or just a one off Spirit.

Thanks!

I really like Bloodghast, though a one of Spirit is probably better, blocking is a nice advantage though the haste clause has won me a lot of games. Bloodghasts and Factories are mostly for killing Jaces, but there is so much utility with Entomb and Cabal Therapy. Making land drops is easy with this deck so a 1-1 or 2-1 split should work nicely. I also don't own a Japanese Foil Nether Spirit so that is part of why I haven't run it yet :)

[jimmythegreek]

Anybody know where I can find some footage of Kurtis Frazier playing black pox. Im really digging his list, especially the three chain of mephistophles main (something im definetly gonna try). Also, its apparent that pox loses in top deck battles. Whats the verdict on phyrexian arena, why is it never found in any decklists?

[OmniStrata]

Anybody know where I can find some footage of Kurtis Frazier playing black pox. Im really digging his list, especially the three chain of mephistophles main (something im definetly gonna try). Also, its apparent that pox loses in top deck battles. Whats the verdict on phyrexian arena, why is it never found in any decklists?

Deck eats your own life and destroys your own hand. Arena is helping your opponent win and your Liliana and Smallpox is helping your opponent 'discard your hand' so to speak.

Where did you hear that Pox loses top deck battles? If your permanents on the field are geared toward defeating anything they draw, how would you lose?

Now if you say Pox loses extremely long games of 20 turns or more, that is more likely to happen if your enemy is a traditional control deck with tons of lands and hard card draw spells. But if you're of the Prison Variety Pox that likes to Crucible Waste-lock/Ghost Quarter lock, you probably have nothing to fear.

[jimmythegreek]

Deck eats your own life and destroys your own hand. Arena is helping your opponent win and your Liliana and Smallpox is helping your opponent 'discard your hand' so to speak.

Where did you hear that Pox loses top deck battles? If your permanents on the field are geared toward defeating anything they draw, how would you lose?

Now if you say Pox loses extremely long games of 20 turns or more, that is more likely to happen if your enemy is a traditional control deck with tons of lands and hard card draw spells. But if you're of the Prison Variety Pox that likes to Crucible Waste-lock/Ghost Quarter lock, you probably have nothing to fear.

I should have prefaced by saying im on the 8 rack version and that losing in top deck battles have been primarily to blue decks who rip a cantrip to find answers to my strategy. I still believe that phyrexian arena wouldnt be bad especially how fast this deck seems to empty its hand. After too long we are drawing ( maybe business) one spell and our opponents hand keeps getting larger. I often feel its extremely difficult when having to play catch-up.

[gigapatrick]

Anybody know where I can find some footage of Kurtis Frazier playing black pox.

Hey, everyone. I've been buddies with Kurtis since high school (we're both in our thirties now) and we've been playing magic for about as long. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of videos of Kurtis playing. In fact, there are only two that I know of: one against Chris Andersen playing Tezzeret, and another done at our LGS a little while ago. The links to both follow. It sucks, but the truth is that, while Kurt is a serious grinder, his success on the SCG circuit has been limited. He did have that tenth place listing not too long ago, which was awesome, but he doesn't have any wins or anything like that (though I root for him every time). In addition to that, the SCG team has some serious bias against Pox. More than once Eric Rill, who Kurtis is friends with, has asked them to put him on camera, since he's at a bunch of opens and is the only one consistently piloting Monoblack. A refusal has answered each of these requests, usually accompanied by the excuse that no one wants to see Pox on camera because it is boring to watch. Not too boring if Reid Duke decides to take it for a spin, but too boring otherwise. As a consolation prize, I'd like to provide a link to my blog on MTGSavlation, which has links to about thirty MTGO videos I recorded piloting Monoblack. Keep in mind, before you watch, that I'm in no way a pro player, nor do I pretend to be on these videos. I'm just an enthusiast of the deck (though, I have to admit, I no longer pilot it, due to a hard decision I made after a string of failures with the deck.) Anyway, enjoy the videos.

Kurtis at our LGS.

Kurtis makes a huge mistake in this video. Good thing his opponent doesn't see.

Kurtis against Chris Andersen.

Notice the heinous comments about Pox from the commentators. Interesting sidenote: in the third game, Andersen borrows Kurtis' huge green 20-sided. Pretty fun.

My MTGO videos.

The videos are under the title "Spreading a Plague." The other entries are written tournament reports.

Enjoy, friends.

[OmniStrata]

I should have prefaced by saying im on the 8 rack version and that losing in top deck battles have been primarily to blue decks who rip a cantrip to find answers to my strategy. I still believe that phyrexian arena wouldnt be bad especially how fast this deck seems to empty its hand. After too long we are drawing ( maybe business) one spell and our opponents hand keeps getting larger. I often feel its extremely difficult when having to play catch-up.

With cards like Liliana of the Veil, Bottomless Pit, Necrogen Mists, Hymn to Tourach, Wrench Mind, and Ensnaring Bridge, I'm not sure how they can draw enough and keep enough in their hand. Oh there's also old school Oppression. If they're drawing too much, punish them with Underworld Dreams. I used to run an 8 rack version till I discovered the joy of Wasteland and Sinkhole. Rack can't kill creatures and makes for a great offense, but is poor on defense, hence probably why you're losing the topdeck wars. If you really need a permanent on the field to help with that, I'd suggest Sensei's Divining Top and a Dredger like Dakmor Salvage or Darkblast. Pox doesn't want to burn life on fetch lands and some dredging spells are great for getting rid of chaff that'll build otherwise.

I don't like it, but I'm not a Rack runner, I'm a Prison Warden... Another option that's pricey on mana but works better than top is Crystal Ball. No fetchlands needed, I used to run 2 of them till I learned burning mana to disrupt gave me better results. But since you're a Rack pilot, perhaps it'll do better and you can spare the mana? [you're not using wasteland to kill your own mana base]

[OmniStrata]

Has anyone tried using Extirpate as a way to ruin a Miracle's 'escape plan'? Recently, my last game against my friend's fully powered Miracles deck had us down to low library counts and when he used SDT to place Council's Judgement on top of his deck, I decided to Extirpate one of his Counterspells.

It saved my Underworld Dreams, which was killing him in 3 turns and two turns later, after top spinning like a madman, he dies. I'm beginning to think shuffle effects like Ghost Quarter + Extirpate + Surgical Extraction are REALLY strong in Pox vs. decks that like to cheat their best cards to the top of the deck. Think: SDT + Combo Tutors + Brainstorm. Any other goofy ways to deal with problem decks?

[beez]

Apparently Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is good in some applications against certain combo decks and can also mess up a Miracle top deck. Mainly it can keep Omni-tell from winning the "fight" with the last card in the deck, and against Storm can make them draw a card in response to a hellbent Infernal Tutor. I haven't decided if I think this is too narrow, but could be better in a deck that uses Crop Rotation, but even with mono black you could use it to have them discard the card they were Brianstorm hiding from your Liliana.

[OmniStrata]

Apparently Mikokoro, Center of the Sea is good in some applications against certain combo decks and can also mess up a Miracle top deck. Mainly it can keep Omni-tell from winning the "fight" with the last card in the deck, and against Storm can make them draw a card in response to a hellbent Infernal Tutor. I haven't decided if I think this is too narrow, but could be better in a deck that uses Crop Rotation, but even with mono black you could use it to have them discard the card they were Brianstorm hiding from your Liliana.

Holy crap, old school. I have 1 copy of Mikokoro, though I didn't realize it can royally screw up Miracle Counterbalance and Infernal Tutor. Then again, I don't fight those decks often. What I do like is how it flies well in the face of Liliana and since I'm a Crucible user, discarding top decked lands is a boon, not a curse.

[darkhelmet709]

Hey, everyone. I've been buddies with Kurtis since high school (we're both in our thirties now) and we've been playing magic for about as long. Unfortunately, there aren't a lot of videos of Kurtis playing. In fact, there are only two that I know of: one against Chris Andersen playing Tezzeret, and another done at our LGS a little while ago. The links to both follow. It sucks, but the truth is that, while Kurt is a serious grinder, his success on the SCG circuit has been limited. He did have that tenth place listing not too long ago, which was awesome, but he doesn't have any wins or anything like that (though I root for him every time). In addition to that, the SCG team has some serious bias against Pox. More than once Eric Rill, who Kurtis is friends with, has asked them to put him on camera, since he's at a bunch of opens and is the only one consistently piloting Monoblack. A refusal has answered each of these requests, usually accompanied by the excuse that no one wants to see Pox on camera because it is boring to watch. Not too boring if Reid Duke decides to take it for a spin, but too boring otherwise. As a consolation prize, I'd like to provide a link to my blog on MTGSavlation, which has links to about thirty MTGO videos I recorded piloting Monoblack. Keep in mind, before you watch, that I'm in no way a pro player, nor do I pretend to be on these videos. I'm just an enthusiast of the deck (though, I have to admit, I no longer pilot it, due to a hard decision I made after a string of failures with the deck.) Anyway, enjoy the videos.

Kurtis at our LGS.

Kurtis makes a huge mistake in this video. Good thing his opponent doesn't see.

Kurtis against Chris Andersen.

Notice the heinous comments about Pox from the commentators. Interesting sidenote: in the third game, Andersen borrows Kurtis' huge green 20-sided. Pretty fun.

My MTGO videos.

The videos are under the title "Spreading a Plague." The other entries are written tournament reports.

Enjoy, friends.

Hi Patrick,

I enjoyed your videos on youtube and watched almost all of them. What made you stop playing pox?

[gigapatrick]

Hi Patrick,

I enjoyed your videos on youtube and watched almost all of them. What made you stop playing pox?

I'm glad you enjoyed them. I had a great time making them.

To answer your question: I stopped playing Pox for a couple of reasons. First, though I didn't post all of them, I recorded about ten or so MTGO videos in which I lost horribly--and while losing ten matches is one thing, losing ten in a row (which is what happened) is another. I got very discouraged with the online matchups for Pox and felt like the deck wasn't really competitive online. Second, I went to two SCGs in my area--and did very poorly. The last time I piloted Monoblack, I think my record was something like 3-4-2. It was pitiful. Ultimately, I always felt like I was taking an underpowered deck to these tournaments, that I was playing from the start at a disadvantage, and that matchups I always thought were good (Stoneblade decks, Jund, miscellaneous midrange decks) were not in fact good at all. To be competitive in this heavy Miracles meta, I think either Monoblack needs a serious overhaul or you should pilot Loam Pox instead, at which point you should just be playing the best Loam deck there is, which is Lands. In any case, I still love the deck, still sometimes think about playing it, and look out from top sixteens from Pox every time there's an open. Good luck to you and everyone else with the deck.

[zebhillard]

I just finished a small 4 round legacy event here which was my first chance to actually sleeve up the black devil and give it a go. Going to get some sleep and then post a report tomorrow.

[zebhillard]

I ended up going 1-2-1 last night in a store run 12 person with the following, but discounting a misplay or two on my part I likely could have brought it up to 3-1 or at the least 2-2.

Here's what I played.

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Sinkhole
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Bloodghast
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Nether Spirit
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Powder Keg
1 Extirpate

4 Mishra's Factory
3 Ghost Quarter
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
15 Swamp

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Trinisphere
3 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Pithing Needle
1 Ebony Charm (I wasn't paying attention and grabbed the wrong charm on the way out the door
1 Dismember

I still haven't been able to get my hands on Wastelands or my final two IoK's (likely going to end up buying one of the Modern Masters decks just to assure I snag the IoK's at least). I ran the 2/1 Surgical/Extirpate split in hopes of making up for it is games ended up going long.

Round 1: Ian with Mono-Red Burn (2-1)
Game 1 he wins soundly, burning me out before I'm able to really get things locked down and stay at a level safe enough where his topdeck doesn't automatically kill me. Games 2 and 3 I end up stabilizing at 9 in both. Game 2 I first turn Liliana'd and dropped a Nether Spirit to hide behind for his initial rush, and ripped all of his sideboard cards out of his hand over turn 2 and 3. Game 3 was almost exactly the same.

Round 2: Charles with Oops, All Spells (0-2)
He took game 1 on turn 1 and I didn't have a Surgical in hand. In went the Leylines and Trinispheres. I proceed to mull to 4 and keep a Swamp-3xRitual hand and he Belchers me out on turn 2 when I don't see a Trini (my needed answer)/Leyline (my expected answer) on either of my draws.

Round 3: Joshua with Red Goblins with Thalia (1-0-1)
I go to 18 from a goblin before putting him in topdeck mode and killing his land, then kill him with a Nether Spirit / Bloodghast pair that occasionally does their duty as Innocent Blood targets. Liliana ultimates once in this game. After it's over he mentions he's never played against Pox before. He gets a lesson in how bad it can go. Game 2 he starts with turn 2 Rest in Peace and goes to time with me hiding behind triple Ensnaring Bridge (he brought in no Artifact hate). I ritualed out turn 1 Lili, turn 2 Innocent Blooded his Lackey, and turn 3 Bridged into an empty hand. Then I proceeded to sit behind the bridge and ultimate Liliana twice to keep him out of Sharpshooter win range and not draw a Cursed Scroll until turn 5 of extra time. It's why I'm considering a Worm Harvest or a third Cursed Scroll as an alternate/additional win con when I have to turtle under Bridge. Bo, who I will play in the fourth round, tells the guy to not worry. That's about as bad as Pox will get and if he can suffer through that kind of match without losing his mind, he's good to go in the future. Thoughts on an alternate win con, though?

Round 4: Bo with BUG Delver (1-2)
I manage a quick lock in game one, killing off multiple Tarmogoyf after a few hits to the dome by them. Mishra's Factory puts in all the work here over 7 rounds after he goes to 14 from fetch lands. Game 2 he drops an early Deathrite Shaman and protects it through various cheap counters after stopping another turn 1 Liliana. Deathrite goes all the way in this one. Game 3 I keep a questionable hand and end up paying for it, with Urborg getting Wastelanded and me having to Ghost Quarter a Ghost Quarter to end up with another source of black to continue. Double 'goyf does all the work for him in this one.

All in all I had a great time, easily one of the best I've had playing Magic recently. The group was excellent without a single person being cold or annoyingly unfriendly to a new guy showing up to play. My plan is to pop three or four cards out between now and next Saturday and take a more complete and solid version of the deck since they go weekly.

Edit/Update: I've made the full commitment to fleshing out the deck and I already know the following changes will happen.
MD
-2 Bloodghast
-1 Extirpate
-2 Surgical Extraction
-1 Swamp
+2 Nether Void
+1 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Nether Spirit
+1 Spinning Darkness
+1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

SB
+3 Engineered Plague
-1 Dismember
-1 Ebony Charm
-1 Trinisphere

Wastelands are going to have to wait a little while, but I think this is a solid start to getting the deck where I'd like it to be. I need to figure out where in the SB to make room for a Surgical Extraction or two, though.