Your point is well taken, don't worry, and it may well be the correct way to approach these MUs. I was really just looking for a debate/discussion around this point, and you answered it clearly, so thanks for that. We now got the arguments stated properly, just need to try it out - that's why I find these SB table discussions very valuable, they really force us to get a deeper understanding of the deck.Originally Posted by LarsLeif
No offence taken, I usually question a lot of things myself, and it has served me well :)
I am a little concerned about the new DTT-Omnishow decks as they now have a good way of fighting through discard and card disadvantage. I feel that if they stay monoblue we are really favoured post board since they have few ways to deal with MM, especially if we get 2 of those online quickly and name S&T and C-Wish. Some of the versions don't even run the backup Dream Halls plan anymore. The worries comes from the version that splash for red, which is sort of worse overall I feel, but better against specifically shardless BUGw as they play a lot of flusterstorms, reb-effects and DTT while being less clunky than Sneak & Show. At least they don't play Blood Moon :P
My concerns might be entirely unjustified as I've only played to matches against them so far, and they have both been tight.
I agree with that. Also in several MUs, Liliana got worse since DTT as it gives the opp a way of getting two cards from hellbent (which is the reason why they were playing sensei top sometimes). As much as I love this planeswalker, I think the meta is not great for her and I'm testing with less Lilianas atm.
I'm unsure about cutting Liliana, or more precisely, concerned with what we should replace her with in that case. Liliana is in the deck for mainly three reasons: being a midgame threat/2for1/removal that doesn't die most removal (in order to attack from different angels), answering TNN and simultaneously pressures combo/control opponents hands. That she also forces creature decks to overextend into Deluge is also nice.
I am not saying that Liliana has no weaknesses, and I am definitely all ears about ideas but if she should be replaced then the replacement should ideally fulfill almost the same role but have other advantages. What have you replaced her with in your decks?
I get where you're coming from, though I wouldn't say the meta is bad for Liliana right now. I already run just 3 Walkers (2 Lili, 1 Jace) and it's been fine. If you're looking for an extra MD-able piece of disruption, I continue to find Dimir Charm pretty solid.
I'm trying with a 3rd Jace (Thief slot) and a 3rd Deluge (Nosb slot) MD instead of 2 Lilianas. The interaction between Jace and Deluge is quite nice too.
The problem is that it triggers quite a lot of changes:
- First it puts more pressure on life total, making library a bit weaker and at the same time less needed as there is a 3rd Jace. It makes me consider Strix again as a way of preserving life total and curving to Deluge and Jace, which in turns makes the forest undesirable, etc.
- It strenghten the Elves and DnT tough MUs pre-board, but probably weakens control MUs (need to test that more), even though as I said I think Liliana is a bit weaker now because of DTT. Non graveyard based combo are slightly worse too preboard but they were very bad already anyway.
- The slots of the 2 Lilianas, now in SB, can also change. I found at least one clique being good here for the combo and control MUs.
- Overall it makes the deck even more controlly and less midrange.
NoSB MD is certainly an option of there is a lot of TNN, tribal and elves in your meta-game. A third jace main deck is actually very decent in control matchups.
I worry however that those changes leaves you a bit weaker to combo and also against tempo thresh and the other delver decks as you increase the curve and cut Lilianas. If you are ok with those matchups being worse I guess your changes are fine. One thing to keep in mind though that while Liliana is a bit worse than usual vs DTT-decks she is still good. I never SB out any Lilianas against DTT-Combo decks for example.
Running Strixes and NoSB MD might be not be the best fit, but it depends on how many strixes and deluges you run.
hey guys, this is my current list:
Creatures (13)
4x Deathrite Shaman
4x Tarmogoyf
4x Shardless Agent
1x Tombstalker
Instants (12)
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Abrupt Decay
Sorceries (8)
2x Toxic Deluge
1x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Ancestral Vision
1x Ponder
Other (5)
1x Sylvan Library
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Jace TMS
Lands (22)
3x Underground Sea
2x Bayou
2x Tropical Island
1x Forest
1x Swamp
3x Wasteland
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Marsh Flats
1x Polluted Delta
Sideboard (15)
4x Meddling Mage
2x Containment Priest
2x Duress
2x Thoughtseize
1x Savannah
1x Null Rod
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
2x Chill
I really like that 1-off Ponder instead of a land, I'm not too sure if cutting 1 Underground Sea (leaving me with 3 as a result) is the right choice, I didn't have problems using it so far though. Any suggestions which land I should possibly cut instead? I personally don't like dropping to either 1 Bayou or Tropical..
My current 'testing' spot is my one-off Tombstalker: I've been testing Dig, Tasigur, Strix, 3rd Lili but came to the conclusion that Tombstalker is the right choice for me.
I've been testing maindeck discard a lot (3 hymn / 3 Thoughtseize/ mixture) but don't really like it so I'll play without it. Sylvan Library and 2 Deluges have been huge for me.
ATM I'm thinking about cutting 1 Jace TMS for DTT, I h aven't been too satisfied with Jace in this particular list, most likely because of the shere enormity of red delver decks in my local meta.
Suggestions?
I've been running 4 seas, 1 trop and 1 bayou (+ 1 forest and 1 swamp) for a long time now and it's the correct choice for your list as you never need double black or double green turn 2. I have never experienced needing several trops or bayous. 4 Wasteland is also the right number in this deck I feel.
The deck played Tombstalker before in the pulse-slot (with pulse in the SB) but we cut the Tombstalker for pulse and also replaced a land with ponder to make up for the one less threat in the deck. Tombstalker is nice but I'm not sure I want it over Liliana.
It's unclear whether it's worth dedicating SB-slots on the Burn matchup but it's a meta thing so I wont judge.
I wouldn't run NoSB and Strix in the same 60, but I found running Deluge and Strix together not being a problem as you don't really need Strix when you cast Deluge, and Strix gives you enough time to cast Deluge safely. The problem with Strix is that you cannot run a forest, so the manabase works in a completely different way (can't do forest/sea/sea/sea anymore).
With this config (Strix and Deluge instead of Liliana), Delver isn't an issue, but we are weaker to control/combo. Really I'm only trying this because I feel that Liliana may become weaker and weaker as everyone starts playing DTT in control and combo. But I may just be overreacting to DTT.
@Lejay: any view on shardless position in a DTT meta and how we should adapt the build?
Went 3-0-1 at the weekly local legacy event with basically Lejay's list with some minor tweaks
Black (5)
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Tasigur
2 Toxic Deluge
Blue (15+4 multi = 19)
4 Ancestral Visions
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
2 Jace, the Mindsculptor
Green (5)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Tarmogoyf
Multicolor (13)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Deathrite Shaman
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Shardless Agent
Lands (22)
1 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Marsh Flats
1 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Duress
1 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Meddling Mage
1 Night of Soul's Betrayal
1 Null Rod
1 Savannah
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Thoughtseize
Might try out Notion Thief in the Cage slot but there is Dredge, Elves and Storm in my Meta.
Beat Painter 2-1, MUD 2-0, and Sneak and Show 2-1. IDed with Death and Taxes. Split Top 4.
Painter
Game 1 he comboed me out turn 4 or so. Don't have a force or decay.
Game 2 he had the turn 1 moon but I had the force. Had answers for magus of the moon and a Null rod and beat him down with a Goyf.
Game 2 he mulligans a couple times and has a three moons but I have the basic lands and answers and beat him down with a Tasigur.
Boarding vs Painter
-2 Ancestral Visions, -1 Jace, -1 Underground Sea
+1 Night of Soul's Betrayal (kills Goblin Welder and Phyrexian Revoker), +1 Nullf Rod (turns of Grindstone and Sensei's Top), +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares.
I don't think Meddling Mage is worth it here with all their Red Blasts and the possibilty of Fire Bolts from the board. Ancestral Visions and Jace get hit by Red Blast so take them out.
MUD
Game 1 he mulls into oblivion and I easily win.
Game 2 I have a double wasteland hand with force and force his metal worker off monolith keep him off getting mana to do much of anything + get Jace in play and start fate sealing him off any lands.
Mud sideboarding
-2 Ancestral Visions, -1 Underground Sea
+ Null Rod, +1 Savannah, +1 Swords to Plowshares
Haven't played this match up much. Swords does get hit by Chalice but having more answers to metal worker or large artifact fatties is important.
Sneak and Show
Game 1 I do have a Force for his Show and Tell by the time he finds it but he forces back. I try to kill Griselbrand with Maelstrom pulse but he draws into force off the draw 7. Griselbrand beats me down.
Game 2 I duress him take bloodmoon get a mage on sneak attack which is joined by a deathrite and a Liliana and win off that.
Game 3. Have a turn 2 Mage on Show and Tell with a force in hand. Wasteland a sol land and a volcanic + decay a petal to keep him low on mana and Mage + Tasigur take it.
Sneak and Show side boarding
-4 Ancestral Visions, -4 Tarmogoyf, -2 Toxic Deluge, -1 Underground SEa
+2 Containment Priest, +2 Duress, +4 Meddling Mage, +1 Savannah, +2 Thoughtseize
Keep Abrupt Decay/ for Bloodmoon/Defense Grids. Keep Maelstrom Pulse in case they have Jace. Maybe should keep some number of Goyf because of Pyroclasm?
@LarsLeif
Thanks for your list, seems we both are a few cards different from Lejay's original. Might go up to 3 Thoughtseize and 1 Duress but been running 2 Thoughtseize 2 Duress. Have to try out Notion Thief again. It was underwhelming when I was trying it in Deathblade often coming down too late but I had some ridiculous blow outs with it.
@SilkyPimP
NOSB is just better then Engineered Plague because it just kills all X/1s and does not die to Abrupt Decay. Death and Taxes it kills Mother of Runes, Revoker, Spirit of the Labrynth, Thalia. Elves it kills all their Symbiotes and Dryad Arbors in addition to elves which leaves only Deathrite and Setinel for Natural Order food. It does not die to their Abrupt Decay either. Painter it kills Revoker and Welder.
Containment Priest is what you want vs Show and Tell decks. Some have moved to OmniTell
@dionykos
I think Liliana is necessary as an answer to Progenitus and True-Name Nemesis. The discard is also good to pressure combo decks. I sometimes take out Goyfs against combo as well. Goyf really isn't that fast a clock against combo cause typically there is only Land, Instant, maybe Sorcery in the yard. You also don't want your blue count too low for Force.
Shardless is still good even with Dig Through Time in the meta. I been playing against Jeskai Delver/COntrol with Digs, High Tide with Digs and winning.
@Deuegg
I rather have Tasigur then Tombstalker. Tasigur can give you more card advantage through his ability.
Is there alot of burn in your Meta that Chills are worth it? Lately there is not much burn in my meta as most of the former burn players bought another deck or don't come anymore to local events. We still have a couple though. Not enough to warrant side board space though.
Nice showing, seems that you didn't exactly face our most desirable matchups but you came out on top regardless which is nice! Gratz! :)
@LarsLeif
Hi, I'm playing shardless with the same 75 cards of your list and I'd like to know how do you board in / board out against Miracles, Lands, 12Post ;)
Thanks in advance^^
I'm a non-white-splash 4waste build similar to Lejay's MD (but without the postboard splash).
Had a few q's for some of the experts:
Misdirection - I wanted to test 1x misdirection, but it seems like it's only good against a few decks these days. Anyone have insight on misdirection's value post-khans in legacy? Seems way better against us than for us... Before dropping 100$ on modo on one card just to see if it's good - it's not good enough anymore, yeh? More for pure control than us.
I'm looking to pick up % vs mono-island and mono-mountain postboard. I've been very happy with my results against every other deck but omni-show, merfolk and burn. Merfolk doesn't seem fixable without distorting the deck, but omni-show and burn might be. Is there a card that does work against both those decks that's maindeckable? I'm leaning towards -1 deluge +1 _something_ to shore up both matches. (in terms of deck comp, I'm 4 vision 4 waste 2 lili 2 jtms 2 deluge 1 ponder 1 DTT 1 tasigur, 0 maindeck discard).
Fwiw - I am a big fan of the 1DTT 1 Tasigur split. Felt like the right number of both after about 20 matches with this exact 75. Karakas can be a bit annoying, but only wastelandable fair decks run karakas, and this build is so good in those matchups that it's just not super relevant. I've done 0 DTT 0 tasi, and 2 DTT 1 Tasi, and 3 DTT 0 tasi + more ponder. This felt the best out of all those sets.
I really like MisD. It's a 5th Force against Miracles and combo (you do have to have an initial counter, but once the war begins, they do the same thing), it's good against Burn, it's absurd in the mirror or against BUG Delver, and it can kill opposing TNNs. I've been running Divert in my BUG Delver board as tech for the mirror and it's been great.
The only maindeckable card I can think of with utility against both Omni and Burn is Dimir Charm.I'm looking to pick up % vs mono-island and mono-mountain postboard. I've been very happy with my results against every other deck but omni-show, merfolk and burn. Merfolk doesn't seem fixable without distorting the deck, but omni-show and burn might be. Is there a card that does work against both those decks that's maindeckable? I'm leaning towards -1 deluge +1 _something_ to shore up both matches. (in terms of deck comp, I'm 4 vision 4 waste 2 lili 2 jtms 2 deluge 1 ponder 1 DTT 1 tasigur, 0 maindeck discard).
I think I'd prefer to run Hymn or Ponder over Dimir Charm, since it's a pretty bad flip with shardless agent.
These things actually maybe go together... I can try replacing 1x deluge (mainly for TNN, elves, delver/thresh)
with Misdirection (good vs burn, reasonable vs combo, acceptable vs some TNN decks, acceptable vs miracles, great vs mirror)
I worry that it won't pan out because we run no countermagic other than FoW... and too many white decks are on Will of the Council - but we'll see how it plays.
Ok, here it goes, I will try to explain a bit as just presenting the +/- will probably only confuse people:
How to board against miracles really depends on their build and their SB-strategy but usually what happens is that they board in a lot of reactive spells like Blasts, CS, Cliques, Misdirection, and answer-cards like EE and Council's Judgement, and also more hard to deal with threats like Keranos, the 3rd EtA etc. But you have to pay attention to what you see: Do they keep CB in? Do they board RiP or Blood Moon? Multiple misdirection effects?
So, against a standard list we can examine some cards from the sideboard that might be interesting first:
Null Rod: Shuts off top while being hard for them to deal with - auto-include
Notion Thief: In addition to being a flash-creature that interacts with draw spells (in other words excellent vs control) it can also stop top-activations etc which can be pretty huge - comes in
Discard spells: If they board reactive spells (which they probably will) these become very good, as resolving our key spells is very important and it gets harder for them to resolve EtA if we have stripped their own countermagic - i usually bring those in. That they sometimes deal with supreme verdict or keranos is nice as well.
When looking at cards to take out some are more obvious than others. Deluge is obviously bad against sweeper.dec, but other cards are not obviously bad. What I usually do is board out Liliana, as she is definitely ok, but becomes worse after board as they board more answers for her, and them going up to 3 EtA means that they also can do their classic “Entreat after Liliana-ultimate ftw” easier than pre-board games. In addition to that ticking Liliana up isn't that exciting against a deck that plays from the top and it also conflicts with us wanting to hold force of will + blue for EtA/Keranos.
The last card that needs to go is even harder but I usually cut 1 DRS if I cut Liliana.
But if you notice that they board out all CBs and don't bring in any RiPs, then you can cut a decay instead.
So a basic table:
+1 Rod
+1 Thief
+4 Discard
-3 Liliana
-2 Deluge
-1 DRS/Decay
Hope that this clears some question marks for that MU. As always, adapt to what you see, don’t overextend into Terminus and make sure they don’t resolve EtA for a large amount. Your trumps in the matchups is Library and Null Rod, and of course all our CA engines, so try to construct your game plan around resolving those.
Jumping to Lands I actually discussed this with a good friend of mine a week ago, Dosferra here on thesource, as he happens to be one of the absolute best lands players in Sweden. This matchup is more straightforward to SB against as Lands is a pretty linear deck.
We are definitely the aggressor in this MU so our aim should just be to attack their manabase (yes their mana) and hopefully win pretty quickly. Looking at the SB we have some instant slams: Null Rod (shuts of all their moxen and also EE) and Leyline of the Void (as it shuts of both their Loam Engine and their PF-engine). We also definitely want to bring in the Savannah so that we go up to 23 lands. And we want to bring in MM as it beats and shuts off Punishing Fire and Loam.
When it comes to what to cut some cards are easy. Deluge does nothing, and neither does Liliana, so they are both gone. The next cuts are more difficult, but I can see cutting the Pulse (as it's a slower decay with few upsides in this MU) and 1 Jace/visions depending on play/draw.
So:
+4 MM
+1 Rod
+1 LotV
+1 Savannah
-3 Liliana
-2 Deluge
-1 Pulse
-1 Jace/Visions
Ok, that's mostly it. When playing the matchup keep in mind: Exploration must never resolve, and if it does, make sure it's decayed ASAP. Otherwise they just win. Other than that, plan 1 is to attack their mana if possible and lock out their ability to loam and play punishing fire with MM and leyline. And preferably kill them.
Against 12post it's sort of the same game plan, but I haven’t tested the matchup enough to present exact board plans. That being said my thoughts are something like: +3 Thoughtseize +1 Priest +1 Null Rod +1 Savannah -1 Forest -2 deluge -2 visions -1 decay but maybe MM can be good here as well, it depends a lot on whether they run Repeal i think. A lot of cards seem ok but not great in the matchup, including our walker-suite. I could see boarding pretty radically with all the discard and all the MM’s coming in while cutting decays, walkers, deluges etc. Only testing can say for sure.
I don't think misdirection is that exciting in this deck, I can't say I feel like cutting anything for it as it's overall a bit weaker than FoW. But if you want to test it you can ofc buy it and try it out.
Mono-red = Burn and Mono-blue = S&T/High Tide combo decks?
There are few cards that are good against both Burn and MonoUCombo as they are exact opposites. Dimir Charm as stated has uses but the card is really weak, especially as a cascade. I have dropped the Burn matchup in a sense that I know it's unfavourable but I'm fine with that and wont waste space trying to beat it. If you want you can play Jitte, Warmth of even Sphere of Law. Against Mono-blue combo MM is great, and if you want to run Lejays MD then you should definitely run the SB white-splash, as the MD is constructed with that in mind. If you want to improve the merfolk matchup you should probably go up to 3 Liliana as she is obviously better than Banana-Boi against them.
@LarsLeif
Ok thank you so much for your advices, I'll make sure to test against 12 post and I promise that I'll attack their mana base very well^^
PS. I recently tested against MUD and I totally destroyed it just by using Wasteland (3 in the first 3 turns)
Haha yeah Wasteland is such an overpowered card. The amount of free wins it provides is insane.
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