I play G/B Pox and find Death and Taxes to be a very favorable match-up. Elves is favorable but less than D&T. I feel like any opponent that Smallpox gets them on every mode is a good match-up. Elves can flood the board so if you can't get 2 for 1s you'll fall behind too fast, keep this in mind sideboarding, take out cards that 1 for 1 for the 2-1s even if they are slower, Example: I'd rather have Golgari Charm and Night of Soul's Betrayal than Inquisition of Kozilek and Abrupt Decay.Originally Posted by Themucher
Tabernacle is amazing against Elves, I also like Cabal Therapy against both because it hits equipment searched by SfM and Glimpse and Natural Order are the most important cards from Elves (Remember with therapy name the card that beats you not the card you think they might have).
i too run a slightly tweaked reid duke list with night of soul's betrayal main deck and some engineered plagues, toxic deluge and spinning darkness at the side..they are usually enough to keep creature swarm strategies in check..but if your meta is specifically full of elves and DnT..then i'd try perish and dread of night instead..
Trying a rational approach to deck building i have made some radical changes.*
The effect of discard is too temporary and does not have any synergy with my creatures. i am thinking of a switch to permanent based disruption.
4 avatar of discord
4 bloodghast
4 bloodsoaked champion
1 nether spirit
4 pack rat
2 necroplasm
4 chalice of the void
4 chrome mox
4 pox
3 engineered plague
3 ratchet bomb
3 leyline of the void
2 mishra's factory
2 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
16 swamp
1 dakmor salvage
With all the Dark Depths and DtT some gy hate in main seem worthwhile.
*I tend to do so after reading Karsten kötter's latest article.
That is radical. No smallpox?What happens when you topdeck Avatar of Discord? Chalice is an interesting way of dealing with combo/Brainstorm. Is Leyline a wasted turn if you draw it vs. a deck that doesn't use it's graveyard? Does Necroplasm shut off Pack Rat? or do you simply not cast it once the Rat is board swarming (dead card)? Will Nether Spirit ever get 'jammed' if Avatar of Discord gets Bolted (assuming the Chalice got removed)? That's a high mana curve with 21 lands and no Dark Rituals.
I looked over the article you mentioned. Was it "Finding your Deckbuilding style"? Permanent based disruption is awesome. It's the key to nullfying topdecks. What's the gameplan with this deck?
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
I've only had a chance to play with my Chalice Loam Pox deck in a couple of tournaments since TC banning, going 3-1 and 2-2. Here are some reports best as I remember.
Casual Friday night Legacy
First up:Burn. Yuck, heart starts racing from the start. Price of Progress, ouch. Lavamancer and Eidelon and Fireblast end me turn 3 or 4
Game two I get an early Chalice out, but that only shuts off part of the deck. A couple Smallpox and a very painful but necessary Toxic Deluge with Eidelon out get me very low, but his land is too suppressed to Fireblast me as I hover above 4. I make the Marit token early, because he can't do anything about it and block a Goblin Guide with it before swinging for the win next turn.
Game 3 I have the natural draw, as happens occasionally, including Stage, Depths and Urborg. Against a helpless burn in this regard I luckily roll out those three lands on consecutive turns for a turn 3 Marit Lage. Burn can't really do anything about that.
(1-0)
I have never considered Death and Taxes as the best matchup either and they are typically pretty grindy and could go either way, if not slightly in their favor, and this was no different.
Game one I got The Abyss out and it was many turns till he drew the Councils Judgement, but by that time I was too far ahead for him to catch up.
Game two I was hurting for mana and had my Mox Diamond Flickerwisped away. Watch out for that one against DnT. After a couple of turns of drawing no land I scooped.
Game 3 He started off with a Vial, a Thalia and a couple of Ports and even a Karakas. I thought I was in real trouble, but as it turned out I was just so absurdly flooded with land that I could pay the Port and Thalia taxes enough to Decay the Vial and Smallpox away the Thalia and a land. Meanwhile he was having trouble drawing land and his Ports were committed to keeping me at bay. A Life from the Loam later and those Ports and Karakas were at the mercy of my Wastelands and he didn't draw much more land.
(2-0)
The next match was against The Gate (!!) I love that deck and was happy to see it though not happy to be playing against it. The Gate has a ton of sac effects, but aside from the couple of Diabolic Edicts he brought in game two, they are fortunately not at instant speed. The Bitterblossom tokens made it tough for Marit to get by and subjected him to sorcery speed saccing. Toxic Deluge and Abrupt Decay on the Blossom were key. The Cabal Therapies with Bitterblossom and Bloodghast were very vicious too. Somehow I kept enough pressure on to win, but it was tough. I seem to remember having to block an Abyssal Persecutor with a Marit Lage token. I still think the Gate is a good deck. I may break it back out to give it a run as well soon.
(3-0)
Last round. Aaargh more Tokens! I thought Treasure Cruise was banned. After this run I thought it would be easier to beat the reduced strength UR Delver, which even during TC heyday I managed to keep somewhat even with. But that's Magic. The clock was fast, nip and tuck all games. Sometimes you win these, sometimes you don't. Submerge can be an issue against tempo, but I still don't think it is worth changing the mana base since I don't play it as an all in combo anyway.
(3-1)
Legacy side event during a larger Standard tourney.
The first game was against another deck packing Chalice and Trinisphere. I sided all that out and ended up Wishing for a Reclamation Sage to get rid of a Blood Moon lock and was able to combo off.
(1-0)
Next up was Dark Maverick. This is a tough one. They have all the Wasteland and Karakas and the ability to tutor for them with Knights as well as Deathrite Shaman, thorn in the side of Loam decks in general, and the ability to Green Sun through a Chalice@ 1 to play him anyway, and Swords for the Marit token. Even with all that I had some chances and had him on the ropes chaining Smallpoxes, but mulligans, never drawing any of my Wastelands or Loams and him drawing Knight after Knight proved too much in the end.
(1-1)
The next game was against Oops All Spells. It was actually the first time I ever faced it and by the time I figured out what was going on it was over. The second game I tried to mull for a Chalice@ 0 for the Mox Opal but couldn't find it and that was it. The Bojuka Bogs proved to be way too slow in this matchup especially without Crop Rotation.
(1-2)
I think I may add back in the Leylines of the Void. They take up an extra precious sideboard slot and are not as versatile, but they just shut some degenerate stuff down completely. I find I wasn't Wishing for Bogs or Fareie Macabre outside of strictly grave decks anyway. Though I was really hoping for a Bojuka Bog against Maverick with Knights. The downside of Leyline is that it suffers from bounce with Chain of Vapor, difficult to replay and Natures Claim , but the upside is that Chalice@ 1 shuts that out too and they are just dead in the water. Abrupt Decay can't touch it either. Living the dream is starting with a Leyline in play and then Mox Diamond into Chalice against Dredge first turn. It happened once awhile back and was the easiest win I ever had in magic .
The last match was against Jund, which I beat like a red headed stepchild as usual in this matchup.
(2-2)
Another thing I thought of, as I've been playing around with a Cloudpost deck that uses Hickory Woodlot to ramp is to include a Peat Bog to complement the Mox Diamonds and help accelerate into turn 2 Lillianas and Trinisphere or to play an early Chalice around Daze, or to fix two black mana to play a Lilly, Smallpox or Hymn asap. It of course can be fetched back by Loam. I think the deck could support a second one but tough to know what to take out. Go with just 3 legendary Urborg, maybe, but I like fixing the black mana with colorless lands as much as possible. As it is, I took out the basic swamp for the first Peat Bog. It turns out the basic Forest mattered more to me in the games where I felt I needed to fetch basics. Price of Progress is a beating, but it is not going to lose you the game on the spot like Blood Moon and to some extent,Back to Basics. With an opposing Wasteland out I'd get the Forest to protect the ability to get back my fetchlands with Loam to out fetch any opposing Wasteland damage, but primarily because the ways of dealing with the enchantment involve green, the sided in Krosan Grip, the ability to Living Wish for Reclamation Sage for it and hope to draw or already have a Mox Diamond out to play Abrupt Decay.
In the side I've had some debate for this slot of fetchable creature. Tombstalker vs Nether Spirit vs Necroplasm . Tomby was my beater I won many games in an alternate fashion with, But during the Treasure Cruise era I switched to Necroplasm, with cheap creatures and tokens running rampant. Recently I have gone with the more defensive Nether Spirit and the ability to Wish for him and put him in play next turn with a Smallpox or Liliana tic (and blocking for Liliana too). It may be too duplicate to have both him and Maze of Ith to Wish for in those circumstances, but the point of the Pox- Depths rather than all-in combo is that defence and resiliancy wins championships.
So this is what the decklist looks like now with just a couple of minor changes.
1 The Abyss
3 Sylvan Library
4 Mox Diamond
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Trinisphere
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
4 Smallpox
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Wasteland
3 Dark Depths
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Urborg,Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Swamp
1 Forest
Side
1 Maze of Ith
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Nether Spirit
1 Reclaimation Sage
1 Krosan Grip
1 Trinisphere
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Toxic Deluge
4 Leyline of the Void
The Maelstrom Pulse slot could be a third Toxic Deluge, a Golgari Charm or a Night of Soul's Betrayal or even a Perish. Not sure yet, but it is close to being tuned for now. Going to work on my non-Chalice Loam based on Joshua's, want to try the Bloodghast-Cabal Therapy thing, and shore up my mono-black build based on Omni's. To me they are good enough and different enough decks to play and enjoy in their own right.
https://www.facebook.com/MTGatTCGpla...038742/?type=1
8 Liliana Pox? This form of Lili is not only hot and full of flavor, but the ones who want to run a more aggro Pox or even, Land Destruction centered Pox should most definitely look into her. Would I run 8 Liliana? Don't know. Would I get a play set of her cause of the hawtness? No question.
I mention LD because for LD to work, it wants fast threats and Liliana in this form now let's you recycle any creature in your deck. Though now I wonder, are we allowed the Liliana Creature and Planeswalkers in play at the same time? Probably a rules change for that to work since they're different.
Time to consider Hypnotic Specter backed by Sinkholes and Rancid Earth and Wastelands and heck, Icequakes? Choking Sands would work if I didn't run Urborgs.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Thanks for showing interest! You have a very good eye for points that would cause worry!That is radical. No smallpox?
I looked over the article you mentioned. Was it "Finding your Deckbuilding style"? Permanent based disruption is awesome. It's the key to nullfying topdecks. What's the gameplan with this deck?
*What's the gameplan with this deck?
To use disruption to allow for a weaker form of win condition. Few decks, if any, are good at handling permanents like enchantments and artifacts.
First turn land, chrome mox, chalice on one. Go. This mean i build to avoid cc1 spells, of course.
My inspiration comes from a Semi-God of Revenge deck someone recently described on MTG Salvation, IIRC. It also ran an Infernal Contract + Soul Spike combo. Very interesting, but I am not sure about how well that works agains aggressive decks. The God was obviously to expensive, but I found the Avatar could have place in a deck that actually is built for discard.
*No smallpox?
No, i found it is best against DRS mainly, and is really not good for the mana curve.
Still, if I ran control pox the play set would of course be part of the 75!
*What happens when you topdeck Avatar of Discord?
Not much. Testing will show if this a problem.
*Is Leyline a wasted turn if you draw it vs. a deck that doesn't use it's graveyard?
Those types are in minority. Lots of Loam and Dig through time around. (DtT is even more sick than TC!) It looks like KotR got a come back too.
Any i draw late can be fed to a chrome mox, or a Rat. I would rather play Relic of Progenitus, of course, but you know, Chalice on one.
*Does Necroplasm shut off Pack Rat?
Necroplasm fill the functions of feeding Pox, Avatar and Rats, while dredging up more ghasts.
Its secondary use is to kill the creatures of delver decks, including tokens.
Note that the Rats are not tokens but copies.
Thus they are safe, to a degree, from kegs, explosives and Necroplasm. Not everyone knows this, but they learn😸
*Will Nether Spirit ever get 'jammed' if Avatar of Discord gets Bolted (assuming the Chalice got removed)?
Maybe. No big deal to me.
*That's a high mana curve with 21 lands and no Dark Rituals.
The chrome moxes are ok, and a neccesssary evil.
It's wash between mox and ritual, but mox work better with chalice.
I would have played it last tuesday but overslept and missed the tourney😾
This decklist is a draft and i welcome all suggestions for improvements!
I haven't looked it up yet, but I think you could have the creature out at the same time as the Planeswalker, since it just says "Legendary Creature" , but when it flips it would be a "Planeswalker- Liliana" and you would have to choose which of your Liliana Planeswalkers to keep.
It certainly looks like a cool card, but would be hard to slide into an existing LD control Pox, as you don't have enough creatures to reliably die and flip the Lilly. It would be better with a much more creature-y Pox build, maybe like some of Hardcore's. It would be most reliable and have synchronicity with a deck with Bloodghasts and Cabal Therapies and the like, but the problem there would be that the minus ability on her would be weakened if you were using recurring creatures anyway.
It fits well into the curve but needs a different crrature mix. I hope it is not more useful for Jund and BUG. As to how many you could play with Lilliana of the Veil, it would seem hard to play all 8, but maybe some kind of build could support it. Maybe with a bunch of Pack Rats, since as Hardcore points out, they are copies, not tokens.
I've done some swaps, some tinkering, and some fidgeting with numbers over the last week. My only test games have been against Dragon Stompy, Death & Taxes, and Reanimator, but post board they've all ended up fairly positive. With that said, here's the new list of what I'm running.
4 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Innocent Blood
3 Sinkhole
1 Spinning Darkness
2 Infernal Tutor
2 Nether Void
1 The Abyss
1 Night of Soul’s Betrayal
1 Nether Spirit
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Crucible of Worlds
3 Cursed Scroll
4 Mishra’s Factory
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Swamp
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Pithing Needle
2 Engineered Plague
1 Grafdigger’s Cage
1 The Abyss
1 Powder Keg
1 Gloom
As for the new Liliana, she's going to definitely be in my Tiny Leaders deck, at the front. But, as for traditional resource denial Pox, my thoughts echo beez. There aren't just enough creatures to trigger her reliably, or to get use out of her other two Planeswalker powers, to justify her inclusion over other cards in the deck.
Last edited by zebhillard; 03-10-2015 at 06:16 AM.
Actually, some discussion on the page brought me to think about it not just creatures, but creature spells. Mesmeric Fiend, Brain Maggots, Viscera Seer (note Liliana's Emblem would pretty much be a tutor for infinity), etc. Any of the cheaper threats that generate some form of card advantage. Creatures that get bigger with counters, like Carrion Feeder or Bloodthrone vampire, what not.
I do get the paradox, Pox vs. many creatures. On the other hand, if you're running 'creature spells', you probably won't need as many sorceries. The goal ultimately is to stall till Liliana ultimate goes off, and this Liliana's ultimate goes off much faster than Chain Veil's ultimate. Then you can just Seer to your kill, which is one of the Carrion Feeders or something and then swing for death.
Ultimately, I'll need to test this myself, but the cards around the mechanic are quite cheap on the wallet and the mana, but I do like me some card advantage
The -x/-x ability can work for long game if you want to try winning spectacularly, like with a Grave Titan, lolz.
I think my favorite reason to run this Liliana is the immunity to Leyline of Sanctity. My current build runs into trouble if that is on the field, but Underworld Dreams and the Rack usually manage to strangle out a win.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Thinking outside the box with utility crratures like that would probably be key to utilizing the new Lilly the best.
Any advice on Sideboard strategy? If i play Leyline of the Void vs a deck that play DtT, should i replace game two?
I suppose it would depend on how good your Game 1 is, honestly. If it goes well and you don't need to slot out the Leyline's for any other hate, I couldn't see a reason to not pull them out.
Yeah, i was thinking about outthinking the opponent. Should i play LotV game one they may board out their Dig through Time for game two. Or not.
Delve is, fall all intents and purposes, a graveyard mechanic that can't be responded to, so your ultimate choice to keep Leyline of the Void (my favorite leyline) is a sound one. They have to bounce/kill the Leyline.
"Strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me!" - Kahmahl, Pit Fighter
It's better to force the opponent on the defensive with your cards, then to react and 'hope' you get the card you need to get out of a sticky situation. In the past, I used to run Ratchet Bombs or Plague Boiler or other nukes to deal with problems like Leyline of Sanctity, Jace, or enemy Pithing Needles. Now I just drop a Sideboarded Rack, or Underworld Dreams and say "phark your defenses".
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Oh, yes! I wholeheartedly agree to that. Offence is the best defence.While LotV, Engineered plague and Chalice are defence cards the very act of running them in main deck is aggressive.
However, I wonder if it pays to try outsmart my opponents at Sideboard. Will he replace his DtT, or board in enchantment removal?
IF he replace them then my LotV are dead cards.
IF not, but i do, my replacement cards need be equally good in my deck as LotV.
My magic coach and friend mentioned this strategy. If you win your game one, fake-shuffle your sideboard into your deck and remove it for game 2. This way, you can hide your board, should you win, and you can react to their SB game 3 if you get stomped. It prevents 'bad guessing' I think. Like, I may guess that my foe isn't playing a combo deck so I side out my Dark Rituals, but then game 2, I get stomped in 3 turns due to a 'transformational' sideboard. It's happened before, but not like that example.
Technically, nothing is as good as LotV at what it does, deny GY strategies. But, since Delve is a payment option, Trinisphere and Sphere of Resistance and Nether Void can slow it down drastically.
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
Actually I think the inspiration comes from the development section of the Source as I was the one who suggested first such deck.
I've done a lot of testing and so far the deck is very promising.
Here is where I am at the moment:
6 Swamp
3 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Lake of the Dead
2 Bojuka Bog
4 Cabal Pit
4 Wasteland
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
3 Demigod of Revenge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 The Rack
3 Dark Ritual
2 Geth's Verdict
4 Soul Spike
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
4 Infernal Contract
Sideboard
2 Phyrexian revoker
2 Braids, Cabal Minion
2 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Oppression
1 Night of Souls' betrayal
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pack Rat
I am still in between 4/5 fetchs and 3 or 4 dark ritual.
22 or 23 lands or another black card for soul spike; that's the main dilemma. If you wanna stretch it, play 22. If you wanna play it safe, 23 is a good number.
I guess the lake could be considered as your DR n°4.
This is rather a Mono Black Control deck than a Pox one.
Nonetheless, you'll get to play the attrition war.
For now results are quite astonishing. Infernal contract is a hell of a card and is at his best when you are below 10 life.
I can't recall the number of games where your opponent thinks he will get you and you draw 4 cards @ 2 or 4 life to jump back out of bolt range thanks to soul spike.
There are only 8 kills in the MD which is low & enough most of the time.
Jace is no longer an issue as you have multiple ways to deal with him (Soul spike, Rack, Demigod).
Control decks tends to die to the Rack.
Midrange decks tends to die to the Demigod.
Tempo decks are usually a piece of cake.
If anyone is tempted to get some fresh air, try it. There are a lot of synergies and tricks we don't see without practicing the deck.
And maybe we can even make it better !
Happy testing.
http://mythicspoiler.com/dtk/cards/pitilesshorde.html
this would fit pretty good in Pox, if u want to play Creatures...
@Ralf, is fetchlands neccessary?
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