Hey, all. This is a skeleton thread for the yet unnamed red and white Death and Taxes offshoot that Bahra, myself, and a few others have independently tried out in some version. Bahra is coming from something close to D+T like this:
Creatures (26):
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Mother of Runes
4x Flickerwisp
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Magus of the Moon
2x Serra Avenger
Non-creature spells (11):
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Batterskull
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
4x Ęther vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
Lands (23):
4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Karakas
3x Windswept Heath
2x Marsh Flats
2x Plateau
4x Plains
1x Cavern of Souls
Sideboard:
3x Sudden Demise
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgement
1x Cataclysm
1x Ratchet Bomb
1x Pithing Needle
1x Containment Priest
Note that he retains the D+T central features of haters and mana denial with just the Magus from red.
My failed attempts up to now were much further away from anything that actually works. But I proxied this one last night and it was better than my other tries by a wide margin.
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Fiend Hunter
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Magus of the Moon
1 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Chrome Mox
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Arid Mesa
5 Plains
1 Mountain
4 Plateau
D+T does a crazy thing. It is a kind of control deck that lacks significant library manipulation and card advantage. This deck veers far from its D+T roots and looks a bit more like the old Dragon Stompy decks except that it has both of these features included. (I tried it with black for Confidant also, but I could not get the mana right and the casting cost of these guys is on the high end, so I cut it.) Note that almost all the creatures are human, so you can dodge your own Chalice of the Void merely by using Cavern mana (or Vial, of course).
To my knowledge only Bahra has had any tournament success up until this point.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
You're desperately hoping that Magus and Fiend Hunter do a lot of work if Chalice on 1 resolves, eh?
Ports are outlandishly expensive online (150 $ per copy), plus the deck is only like 3 days old.Originally Posted by Finn
I would play it, too, if I hadn't borrowed my D&T cards to Bahra.
About your deck:
I just don't see the appeal over the D&T core. You're way too 3-drop heavy, the accelerants are card disadvantage and you lack the Wasteland + Port mana denial.
I love D&T, and this type of variant sounds like a lot of fun (I also love MUD because of all the random tricks). I'll give this a shot since I recently got a set of Recruiters ^_^
Cockatrice: EMFry
Splashing red to shutdown Rishadan Port, Karakas and Wasteland seems really bad on the face of it. The lists that Magus of the Moon will really dominate are mostly the same lists that port, Karakas and wastes work well against.
If you really want to get some impact out of the Boros splash the places I would look are Ajani Vengeant and Sudden Shock. Neither of those conflict with what the list is already trying to do. Ajani can supplement the port/waste plan and he's an endgame option which is something that D&T is kind of short on at the moment. Sudden Shock has a lot of utility in a list with no counter spells.
I think that if you're going to take that route, you might as well be playing dragon stompy... I think it'll do that job better. I'm going to be (virtually) testing this list... The maindeck has one card too many and I'm going to be experimenting with one more card to cut. I was originally thinking Flickerwisp, because keeping the curve down is good, but Bahra pointed out how amazing it is to flickerwisp a recruiter, so maybe something else. SFM or Revoker.
23 Lands
Artifacts
4x AEther Vial
1x Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull
Spells
4x Swords to Plowshares
Creatures
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Flickerwisp
3x Magus of the Moon
2x Imperial Recruiter
1x Serra Avenger
1x Mangara of Condor
Sideboard:
3x Sudden Demise
3x Ethersworn Canonist
3x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgement
1x Cataclysm
1x Containment Priest
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Leonin Relic-Warder/Fiend Hunter
Yeah, but honestly that is what a Chalice deck looks like. You trade Port+Wasteland for Moon and Chalice. Those two are the badass gorilla disruption of the format - far more effective than Waste and Port. The issues with them are having a deck that sits on its hands on the occasions when they don't do enough (or don't resolve), making sure you deploy them right away, and having some meaningful way to deal with permanents that get through. You will note that all of those issues are really the same thing. D+T does not have that, as you and I both know. But then we are brewing here. Is it a good tradeoff? Dunno yet.I just don't see the appeal over the D&T core. You're way too 3-drop heavy, the accelerants are card disadvantage and you lack the Wasteland + Port mana denial.
-----
Of course, then there is the issue of countering my own STPs. Thanks, Meekrab. Even though you are a punky snarkrab for saying that way. Thankfully, there is no shortage of strong replacements in these colors. Quick contenders include:
Lightning Helix - not an exceptionally powerful card, but having two colors in its casting cost makes it a fine choice to exile to Chrome Mox
Sudden Demise - I love this card in all kinds of inappropriate ways. But I think it may not be the right one for the job due to the expected good and bad matchups for this deck.
Council's Judgment - Sorcery and 3 instead of 2 being the only issues here.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Just a variant off the top of my head:
4 Thalia
4 Magus
4 SFM
4 Mother
2 Revoker
2 Recruiter
2 Flickerwisp
1 Mindcensor
3 STP
1 Bolt ------ (not sure about the split, but Bolt works under Magus and potentially pushes through the last points of dmg)
4 Chalice
4 Vial
3 EQ
4 Chrome Mox
4 Arid Mesa
3 Plains
1 Cavern
2 Karakas
4 Plateau
4 Wasteland
--
3 Sudden Demise
1 STP
3 RiP
3 Canonist
3 REB
1 Leonin Relic Warder
1 Wear/Tear
1 XYZ
Also a thought: Jaya Ballard, Task Mage.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
i'm in the process of obtaining the red splash cards. will give it a shot.
My take:
3 Restoration Angel
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Peacekeeper
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Mirran Crusader
3 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Aven Riftwatcher/Flex slot
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
2 Flooded Strand
2 Karakas
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Rugged Prairie
SB: 1 Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Ajani Vengeant
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Council's Judgment
SB: 2 Wear // Tear
More D&T style, without Magus of the Moon (could be in the sb, anyway, expecially against BUG)
Jaya is pretty red-intensive.
@Memories of the Time: If you run Restos, you should runn a full playset of Flickerwisps as well. Flickerwisp shenanigans are some of the strongest tricks the deck has and you should maximize them when given the chance. Although I think the curve might be too high in general.
I tested some, and I think that I have been too conservative on the mana. This is a hard thing to figure, but I am going to try to squeeze more out of the mana base. I don't really like Ancient Tomb here, so maybe a couple Ports?
No definite comments on my creature selection. Thinking about Kor Skyfisher. I just think it could be handy as a tutorable Flickerwisp effect. I especially like the idea of putting a Chalice or Cavern back in hand in case of the need to change them. Flickerwisp might be better in general, but it does not work with Chalice very well. Also, I used Avalanche Riders in the past. I think this is a decent choice when using Blood Moon, but I do not have the experience to be sure. Does anyone have actual experience with Dragon Stompy or the new versions of Imperial Painter to be able to shed some light on this?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Curious...what matchups does this improve for D&T? Doesn't it already have a pretty solid matchups against decks with greedy manabases?
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I imagine the presence of CotV and Sudden Demise shore up the elves matchup nicely. Magus does some work, too, at shutting off fetches and Cradle.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
Stoneblade decks are not generally a good match up for D&T, which Magus of the Moon completely fixes. UWR stoneblade and UWR Delver are stone cold to Magus of the Moon, and so is Deathblade. And of course Sudden Demise makes the elves match up much better.
I'd say Goblin Settler is a better choice than avalanche riders because generally you want your bodies to stick around for equipments. Cavern on human is a thing though, while cavern on goblin not really.
There's a Canadian Threshold deck, so maybe this can be like Danish Taxes
Why Danish?
Why not Turkish or Namibian?
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Or Polish!
If this was U/W we could even call it Finnish.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
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