All B/R update speculation.

[Star|Scream]

"Out of context". Cute.


"95% of decks run 8+ fetchlands is fine; 75% of decks running 4 Brainstorms is not" #BecauseBlue

No, you don't understand. Fetchlands enable you to play many different strategies with less variance and more consistency. Brainstorm doesn't do that, all you can play with brainstorm is one specific archetype: Blue

[nedleeds]

We don't really disagree. I do think there's little standing in the way of Omnitell right now and if we have Miracles + Omni (and even the Grixis deck that preys on them) at the top for a while I think DTT is as good as gone.

There's the 'gentleman's agreement' philosophy cited when Mystical tutor got banned. Which is essentially that a significant percentage of the player base isn't interested in just derping Show and Tell and winning. If everyone's lives depended on it you'd see more Show and Tell because it's pretty dumb, and assembling 2-card combos is made really easy because of Brainstorm. Brainstorm is the single best cantrip by a fucking Pennsylvania mile at assembling 2 card combo (2CC being defined as not wanting multiples of either half, or one half).

Ban Brainstorm and Show and Tell and other 2CC takes a bigger hit than critical mass combo. Add to that the fact that Duress will have text. There's no need to ban shit like Show and Tell if you get rid of Brainstorm, the deck will lose consistancy over 8+ rounds, be far more disruptable by skill intensive cards like Cabal Therapy.

[solidbass]

My bad here's my source: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...-A-Friend.html I believe Jim Davis to know all there is about Gobos. TNN is the literally the lamest card since like Teferi's response.

[Lemnear]

No, you don't understand. Fetchlands enable you to play many different strategies with less variance and more consistency. Brainstorm doesn't do that, all you can play with brainstorm is one specific archetype: Blue

Bullshit on two levels. There is no "archetype: blue" and you suggest banning a shitload of cards like Brainstorm, TC, DDT and possibly others just to keep perfect 3-colored manabase abdominations for Jund and Junk around. You are fighting symptoms not the cause

[nedleeds]

Worse than Brainstorm? Debatable.

Not really. Brainstorm outpaced it by 25%. It also enabled your opener to not get clogged with too many cruises.

[Star|Scream]

Bullshit on two levels. There is no "archetype: blue" and you suggest banning a shitload of cards like Brainstorm, TC, DDT and possibly others just to keep perfect 3-colored manabase abdominations for Jund and Junk around. You are fighting symptoms not the cause

Sorry, I was actually agreeing with you, sarcastically. Next time i will do a </sarcasm> at the end.

[maharis]

So I'm "obtuse" and you throw the bolded statement into the thread? Funny, as I can't imagine a Legacy deck with 20 cantrips so point me at one. You try to make a point because we have 1 deck in the metagame which runs all the named cards and ALL other blue Legacy decks only run a few of these?

If you want to fuck with Brainstorm, Cabal Ritual, Treasure Cruise, DRS, Dig Through Time, Ponder, SDT and Co. once and for all, you need to ban Fetches. Everything else is just politicking and showing a lack of understanding what really fuels the supreme card selection. Period.

I apologize, since force of will isn't a cantrip, for misspeaking, and for slightly overstating the number as it's closer to 15 than 20. However it is intentionally obtuse to say that just because there isn't a xerox of 20 exact cards that there isn't a clear predilection in the format toward a particular kind of build:

Miracles: 4 BS, Ponder, Force, 2 Dig. 4 Top as well, and as a player of non-Miracles control, I can tell you that if it wasn't for the existence of the miracle mechanic, at least 3 of those would be some other sort of one-mana blue cantrip. As good a card as Top is with fetches (more on that later), it is simply not as good as just jamming more cantrips for pure selection.

Storm: 4 BS, Ponder, Probe, 2 Preordain, 1 Top.

Grixis delver: 4 BS, Ponder, Force, Probe, 2 Dig

4c delver: 4 Brainstorm, Force, Ponder, 3 Probe

Omni: what I listed above

Of course the RUG decks in the top 16 both played extra removal/counters over extra cantrips, but there have definitely been versions of that deck adding 3-4 probe to 4-ofs BS, Ponder, Force.

Once you add lands, it's anywhere from 30-40 cards decided before you start adding anything else.

And though fetchlands are clearly powerful in their interaction with these cards, it should be noted that between the two DGA decks in the last top 8, there's only one solitary SDT in one of the lists. Yet they played 7 and 8 fetches respectively, about the same as any blue deck, because the fixing is important even if you're not trying to get A+ card selection. (Sure, they play DRS, but I don't think it's fair to compare adding one mana to your mana pool to shuffling away two dead cards. Even then it's 9 out of 150 cards that interact with fetches, when there are usually way more than that in the 75 of a blue deck.)

Now, if Wizards wanted to take the fetches out of legacy and simultaneously kneecap cantrips and piles of goodstuff, I'm all for it because I think it would be interesting and incredibly fun. But again, it's just obtuse to draw an equivalence between how powerful fetchlands are in general and how powerful they are with cantrips. Cantrips + fetches is a draw engine that outmuscles every other one that's possible in the format, and it's getting even more ubiquitous as Ponder cracks the 60% played barrier.

[btm10]

This doesn't make any fucking sense.

It doesn't, but his comment about Miracles being something we can adapt to is reasonable. Part of the problem is definitely the elitist attitude that a lot of people have toward Chalice, Post, and other fringe decks likely reduces the number of people, especially players looking to make a mark, picking them up. Cameron Wisnewski has top 16ed two large Legacy events in the past ninety days with a build of Tezzerator that I'm pretty sure only he plays, not that it would surprise me if he were the only person playing any build of the deck between both events. Similarly, how many times have Jeremiah Rudolph and John Kassari pilot 12Post to a strong finish? How many times in a row does MUD need to top 16 an SCG event before it hits a critical mass of players to break through into the top 8? It's not like these decks are Enchantress where your combo matchups really are so bad that you can't dodge any of it reliably enough to top 8 - two of them run Force, one of those has little problem running additional countermagic out of the board, and the third complements Chalice with 4 Sphere of Juggernauts and some number of Trinispheres.

[solidbass]

It doesn't, but his comment about Miracles being something we can adapt to is reasonable. Part of the problem is definitely the elitist attitude that a lot of people have toward Chalice, Post, and other fringe decks likely reduces the number of people, especially players looking to make a mark, picking them up. Cameron Wisnewski has top 16ed two large Legacy events in the past ninety days with a build of Tezzerator that I'm pretty sure only he plays, not that it would surprise me if he were the only person playing any build of the deck between both events. Similarly, how many times have Jeremiah Rudolph and John Kassari pilot 12Post to a strong finish? How many times in a row does MUD need to top 16 an SCG event before it hits a critical mass of players to break through into the top 8? It's not like these decks are Enchantress where your combo matchups really are so bad that you can't dodge any of it reliably enough to top 8 - two of them run Force, one of those has little problem running additional countermagic out of the board, and the third complements Chalice with 4 Sphere of Juggernauts and some number of Trinispheres.

Thanks for looking at my actual point instead of my irrational hatred towards a particular card. I like the idea of elitism playing a role in determining what decks people play. I think it creates a vicious cycle, if the a deck is perceived as the "best deck" due to some results then it would be played in greater numbers which would in turn put up even better results. If that happens enough times I think the format would become unhealthy and stagnation would occur.

[twndomn]

Now, if Wizards wanted to take the fetches out of legacy and simultaneously kneecap cantrips and piles of goodstuff, I'm all for it because I think it would be interesting and incredibly fun. But again, it's just obtuse to draw an equivalence between how powerful fetchlands are in general and how powerful they are with cantrips. Cantrips + fetches is a draw engine that outmuscles every other one that's possible in the format, and it's getting even more ubiquitous as Ponder cracks the 60% played barrier.

Patrick Sullivan said something similar. Lots of the present problems are created due to cantrips + fetchland interaction. If Wizard removes fetchland, lots of problems would be solved.

However, that's not what Wizard envisions Legacy should be. Wizard knows large number of people enjoy fetchland and brainstorm, at least larger than number of elves/jund/mud/dnt/lands players combined.

If we look at the delta ever since GP Kyoto, really the only change in the recent months should be the number of copies of Dig in the Top 8. The number of Brainstorm most likely remain about the same.

[Hrothgar]

BUG Control
Miracle Control
OmniTell
Thopters
Ad Nauseam Tendrils
OmniTell
U/W Control
Threshold UGr



This is the top 8 at the Ovino Spring, 202 players.
Only one Miracle.

[Zombie]

Brainstorm: 32/32 copies, 8 decks, 100% and 100%
Ponder___: 22/32 copies, 7 decks, 69% and 88%
FoW_____: 28/32 copies, 7 decks, 88% and 88%
Preordain_: 13/32copies, 4 decks, 47% and 38%
DTT______: 14/32copies, 4 decks, 44%, 50%

10 red blasts (all SB at least)

[Raystar]

BUG Control
Miracle Control
OmniTell
Thopters
Ad Nauseam Tendrils
OmniTell
U/W Control
Threshold UGr



This is the top 8 at the Ovino Spring, 202 players.
Only one Miracle.

This guy (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post880663) was matched against Miracles 7 (seven) times (the 8th match has been confirmed to also be a Miracle match)....A friend was there and he reported that everybody and his mother was playing Miracles....

[Quasim0ff]

I'd wage a bet, and argue that top8 is more diverse than most standard and modern tournaments. Just because some colors overlap, doesn't mean that the strategy does.

*Sure, when playing in miracles-land, you play versus a lot of miracles. When it isn't unreasonably representative in the top8, there's hardly any problem with it.

[Asthereal]

Preordain_: 15/32copies, 3 decks, 47% and 38%

Somehow I doubt that.

But anyway, I've been away from this thread for a few months. Last time I posed a solution for the Cruise era, and all I got in response was "Ban Brainstorm! I hate Brainstorm!" and people responding to that. Am I correct in assuming this thread is still only posts saying "Ban Brainstorm!" or "No Brainstorm is awesome!"?

PS. No, I am not going to insult my own intelligence by actually having a look. I tried that once. It did not go well.

[Barook]

Somehow I doubt that.

But anyway, I've been away from this thread for a few months. Last time I posed a solution for the Cruise era, and all I got in response was "Ban Brainstorm! I hate Brainstorm!" and people responding to that. Am I correct in assuming this thread is still only posts saying "Ban Brainstorm!" or "No Brainstorm is awesome!"?

PS. No, I am not going to insult my own intelligence by actually having a look. I tried that once. It did not go well.

Well, what did you expect? TC decks were replaced by decks that run DTT and the meta is just as blue and Brainstorm-heavy as before.

[Quasim0ff]

Well, what did you expect? TC decks were replaced by decks that run DTT and the meta is just as blue and Brainstorm-heavy as before.

This is not related to TC and DTT. Besides: A blue dominance isn't per se a bad thing. If it was dominance from a single strategy, that'd be worse. That's not the case.

[M+1]

all I got in response was "Ban Brainstorm! I hate Brainstorm!" and people responding to that.

Pretty much. This thread is the Brainstorm-hater/Color-equilibristic self-help group.

[Star|Scream]

BUG Control
Miracle Control
OmniTell
Thopters
Ad Nauseam Tendrils
OmniTell
U/W Control
Threshold UGr



This is the top 8 at the Ovino Spring, 202 players.
Only one Miracle.

That looks like an awesome Top 8!!!!

[Zombie]

No, we are not and that's why I presented the extreme example. We don't have 20 cards overlap in various strategies. We have only 8 in blue decks in general and that's less than the usual "white shell" of Plows/SFM/Batterskull/Jitte and no one cries about that either as the best white package in Legacy.

The "white shell" is different because if you want quality removal and threats (even ones that provide card advantage), you can get it with a comparable quality. White, red and black(green) all have strong removal available. Quality threats abound. You're not forced to play a specific color to be able to get access to those effects - you don't have one choice, you have three or four. The color choices affect the style a bit, sure, but the raw power is comparable.
The raw power of the cantrip cartel, especially when supported with Dig, completely eclipses the card selection tools of other colors in quality. Elves is the only thing that comes close, and it's noticeably slower at getting things going.

Other key areas:
Removal: W, B, R
Removing noncreature permanents: G, W, R
Combo hate: U, B, W
Graveyard hate: W, G, B, colorless

There are choices there. If you want a card selection engine, though, it's blue or go home. The others are completely outclassed in comparison, barring a couple narrow ones.

The universality makes it worse, because the play experience of decks starts to feel similar because the engine is the same in all of them.
If you compare this to, say, Green (supposing) engines with Elves, Nic Fit and Loam decks all operating differently. The only different core blue deck that springs to mind is UB Tezzeret, which feels appreciably different from most other blue decks.

It's not only the dominance of one color, though that's a large part of it. It's the dominance of a single engine that fuels everything and makes things feel stale. I don't want to completely kill it, but taking it down some notches to the same ballpark other colors inhabit would be good for the format.