[Primer] Elves!

[Dice_Box]

The deck already runs four walkers, not much space left for more of them.

[AznSeal]

TL:DR Version: Even while I don’t have any experience with this deck yet other than reading articles and these forum there are at least two tournament proven Planeswalkers that fit into the Gameplan of the Deck. If they really better than other cards that the Deck plays right know is the real question.

Hello, while I have to admit that so far I haven’t played a game with Elves yet I spend the last months purchasing the cards to play it and reading articles and this forum to have an idea what to do as soon as I can start. While I don’t want to pretend to be an expert with this deck I do have a great problem with this statement:



Do you agree with the statement that the change to the legendary rule was good for Elves because it lets you use two Gaea’s Cradle in one turn? If that is the case, do you really want to argue that Gaea’s Cradle + Planeswalker = two Gaea’s Cradle activation a turn is something that is completely uninteresting for Elves Gameplan? If it is good enough to justify a Decklist spot is definitely another discussion but the way the Planeswalker discussion is held right now I got the feeling that it is dismissed before really thinking about it.

There are two Planeswalker that are able to do that, Garruk Wildspeaker because of its untap Lands ability and Xenagos the Reveler which +1 ability is basically Gaea’s Cradle on a Planeswalker that can make red Mana in addition to the green Mana and you can choose any combination of red and green Mana out of the total Mana. Both have the added Bonus that they can make tokens to pressure the opponent should your board be empty. In both cases Xenagos is superior to Garruk. Garruk will only make Cradle Mana when you already have Gaea’s Cradle in play while Xenagos can do it as soon as he hit play. While Garruk makes a 3/3 Token the ability is a – 1 one ability which limits the number of tokens you can produce. Xenagos on the other hand makes 2/2 haste tokens with a 0 ability which makes an unlimited stream of tokens. During Return of Ravnica / Theros Standard it was a common view seeing Xenagos machine gunning down slow control decks with nearly no creatures and no burn to handle him on instant speed, even when the control decks had a three Mana sorcery speed spell that can remove Planeswalker. Even when the control deck were able to deal with the tokens with a creature sweeper Xenagos was still there to just start again, thanks to haste directly on his next activation. Well if that scenario does not remind you on the miracles match up than I don’t know what will do. Even if I wouldn’t count on hitting the ultimate in a deck like Elves, even here I would give the advantage to Xenagos. While Garruk can make an Overrun in the case of Elves you should be faster and better while taking the Craterhoof Behemoth route then trying to do that with Garruk. Xenagos Ultimate on the other hand helps you rebuilding your board when the board was destroyed. While again if everything works as it should be going the ultimate route would just be slower, but if anything went wrong it usually included that your board was destroyed, in that case an ability that rebuilds your board does not sound completely stupid. Even in that case the question remains if the 2/2 haste tokens are a better solution but that depends as always on the match up and the game state.

Sure you now may ask but do I really need a four Mana Planeswalker when a four Mana Natural Order wins the game? Again the question is not so simple. Again against Miracles if the Planeswalker works as intended it is a must counter. So you can bait a counterspell with it like you can bait a removal spell by playing a Heritage druid, you can see if they have a 4 CC Mana Spell on top of their library for Counterbalance purposes in that case you know that you don’t need to try to cast your Natural Order. And should your Planeswalker resolve in the case of the two mentioned above there is a chance depending on your board position that their Mana ability generates at least as much Mana as you spend on the Planeswalker, in that case you still can play the Natural Order now knowing that as long as they don’t bluffing the coast is clear because if they would have been able to counter they most likely would have countered the Planeswalker. And should they answer whatever you got from your Natural Order with an Instant Terminus you still have your Planeswalker and can switch to the Token route starting the following turn.

If that still don’t convince you to try a four Mana Planeswalker how about a three Mana Planeswalker? The one interesting here is Domri Rade. While his contribution is less obviously then the one of Xenagos Domri Rade again is a way that creature heavy Decks, and I would count Elves at that, fight control Decks. If your opponent tries to control you with removal he is relying on 1:1 trades. The one who draws more cards will win that fight. In a deck like Elves his +1 Ability will net you one card every second turn on average. Try to find enough removal to keep up with that. His -2 Ability can sometimes random relevant if you have to remove a blocker before attacking with a then lethal Craterhoof Behemoth attack. Compared to Xenagos that is not so much but sometimes the little things can make a difference.

In both cases Xenagos and Domri both Cards have proven to be tournament relevant. Even if they yet didn’t made a splash in Legacy keep in mind that both needs very specific Decks in order to function and yes there are few Legacy Decks outside of Elves that would benefit from them like Elves would. So saying that there are no Planeswalker that benefits Elves seems wrong to me. The more relevant question is do you find room to play them and are they really better than the existing options? In the case of Domri I think the most logical spot where to play it is instead of Glimpse of Nature, which honestly is not a competition I see Domri winning. The more interesting question is what to do with Xenagos. After he could be most brutal in combination with Gaea’s Cradle I definitely would not want to cut Cradle’s for him so you would have to play him as Cradle 5 – 8. If you still play the fourth Heritage Druid or in that Spot a card that should improve the Miracles Match Up than I would think about trying Xenagos in that Spot. After you can’t tutor for him that is at least one fewer that I would like and I definitely wouldn’t want to cut another creature for the second Xenagos. That is the greater problem with the Deck and Planeswalker finding room to put them in.

A lot of cards "fit" into our game plan. The problem is we only have 60 slots. Theorycrafting is nice, but you admitted yourself you have not played much. There's a reason why Xengaos or Garruk are not included in this deck.

[Shagstaman]

garruk (any version) or xenagos would be fine vs. miracles, but that is like the only matchup where I'd want a pwalker...everything else either kills you way too fast for a walker to matter or ignores walkers altogether..

so as a consideration for miracles sb, sure...I could see jamming 2 xenagoses or garruks, maybe even domri since the emblem would be hell for them answer-- but this is a very narrow sb plan I'd only implement if I knew the meta was VERY heavy with miracles (like 30%+). In any other field you are better off playing generic miracles hate that splashes to other matchups (null rod, decay, needle).

[danyul]

I don’t have any experience with this deck yet other than reading articles and these forum

Y'all coulda stopped reading right here. There's no need to waste more words or energy in responses. You could be doing something more productive like pushups or laundry or staring at a wall.

[Lemnear]

Y'all coulda stopped reading right here. There's no need to waste more words or energy in responses. You could be doing something more productive like pushups or laundry or staring at a wall.

I can do pushups with only one arm and type with the other ... just saying

[danyul]

Haha clearly you are the hero this forum deserves. A true ubermensch.

[Lemnear]

Haha clearly you are the hero this forum deserves. A true ubermensch.

Some threads deserve no better lol

[Brentane]

This thread seems to be quite dead. Why is it? Are you people just getting bored of the deck or can't you win with it anymore?

[danyul]

This thread seems to be quite dead. Why is it? Are you people just getting bored of the deck or can't you win with it anymore?

That's a slightly condescending tone...sooooo WELCOME.

The thread is dead because the deck is mostly solved. Aside from like 5 slots tuned for your meta, there aren't a ton of changes to discuss. Sometimes people bring in off-the-wall suggestions or get mildly excited about some new printing that maayyyybbbeee won't suck. But aside from that, there isn't much to talk about. This isn't like the Storm boards where people can discuss really long lines of play because Elves doesn't function in a way that is conducive to such discussions. Storm dudes can look at an opening 7 and...fuck I dunno...talk about all kinds of lines for days and days. But with our opening 7s, there's usually just one or two correct ways to play them. And so many of our plays happen over multiple turns. There's no intelligent way to discuss a play when everything you're talking about can be turned upside down if you whiff on a Glimpse draw or topdeck a land instead of a dude or whatever. "Oh, I had this sick line where I tapped for a bunch of mana but then I drew two lands in a row. Discuss." Or "Oh, I had four mana. Then I cast Natural Order and he died. Discuss." Or "Yeah, I was playing towards drawing a Green Sun but then I didn't. So I just bounced my Visionary and then managed to not draw a Green Sun again. Then I passed the turn. Discuss?"

The deck isn't boring (for most of us, anyways). And the problem isn't losing - there's plenty of discussion in threads where decks are durdle-city and/or have poor win ratios. The problem is just that...there's nothing really riveting to talk about at the moment. If somebody came in here with a question about a particular play, then we could ham it up about that. But people aren't really doing that. I dunno why.

I personally haven't been posting as much because I've been distracted by other IRL things. Also, the meta has shifted in a way that is unfavorable to this deck...so maybe people have moved on to other strategies/decks/threads? Who knows? But asking why a thread is dead is hardly ever a way to make it un-dead. You should be the change you wish to see in the world (GANDHI) and...I dunno...ask a really good question to kick this DISCUSS-A-THON off properly.

Ok. Go!

[Brentane]

That's a slightly condescending tone...sooooo WELCOME.

The thread is dead because the deck is mostly solved. Aside from like 5 slots tuned for your meta, there aren't a ton of changes to discuss. Sometimes people bring in off-the-wall suggestions or get mildly excited about some new printing that maayyyybbbeee won't suck. But aside from that, there isn't much to talk about. This isn't like the Storm boards where people can discuss really long lines of play because Elves doesn't function in a way that is conducive to such discussions. Storm dudes can look at an opening 7 and...fuck I dunno...talk about all kinds of lines for days and days. But with our opening 7s, there's usually just one or two correct ways to play them. And so many of our plays happen over multiple turns. There's no intelligent way to discuss a play when everything you're talking about can be turned upside down if you whiff on a Glimpse draw or topdeck a land instead of a dude or whatever. "Oh, I had this sick line where I tapped for a bunch of mana but then I drew two lands in a row. Discuss." Or "Oh, I had four mana. Then I cast Natural Order and he died. Discuss." Or "Yeah, I was playing towards drawing a Green Sun but then I didn't. So I just bounced my Visionary and then managed to not draw a Green Sun again. Then I passed the turn. Discuss?"

The deck isn't boring (for most of us, anyways). And the problem isn't losing - there's plenty of discussion in threads where decks are durdle-city and/or have poor win ratios. The problem is just that...there's nothing really riveting to talk about at the moment. If somebody came in here with a question about a particular play, then we could ham it up about that. But people aren't really doing that. I dunno why.

I personally haven't been posting as much because I've been distracted by other IRL things. Also, the meta has shifted in a way that is unfavorable to this deck...so maybe people have moved on to other strategies/decks/threads? Who knows? But asking why a thread is dead is hardly ever a way to make it un-dead. You should be the change you wish to see in the world (GANDHI) and...I dunno...ask a really good question to kick this DISCUSS-A-THON off properly.

Ok. Go!

Actually I was just wondering if the deck was still considered tier 1 in the current meta and why people stopped discussing it. I am a huge Elves player and have a deck for them in each format, so this is my number one deck in Legacy. I just like to keep up with the times with this deck. So it's pretty much solved until new elves or beasties come out eh? Also still tier 1?

[JPoJohnson]

I find it odd that a 'huge elves player' would have to ask if the deck is still competitive...

[Brentane]

I find it odd that a 'huge elves player' would have to ask if the deck is still competitive...

I said I am a huge "Elves" player, the creature type. If I meant this deck itself I would have said "Elves!". Anyway, I haven't been able to play any Legacy events since they are rare in my area. I'm only able to play with my mates so I have a very small meta of decks to play against.

[Lemnear]

That's a slightly condescending tone...sooooo WELCOME.

The thread is dead because the deck is mostly solved. Aside from like 5 slots tuned for your meta, there aren't a ton of changes to discuss. Sometimes people bring in off-the-wall suggestions or get mildly excited about some new printing that maayyyybbbeee won't suck. But aside from that, there isn't much to talk about.

I'm sure this is pretty much spot on and I kinda predicted this point about 1,5 years ago hinting at the problem that this deck is very dependant on printings of a certain creature type like Goblins or Meerfolks and that WotC moved a bit away from those outside of core sets. Zenikar has elces if I remeber correctly? Maybe there's something new for tribal decks coming within the next block then, but at the current state the deck has hit a development ******** which hurts me maybe more than most people, as I really really love tinkering and tuning decks (more than actual playing) and I think that every forced evolution of this deck atm leads to a Rock- or NicFit-like midrange approach which I see no point in, given the current state of the metagame.

This isn't like the Storm boards where people can discuss really long lines of play because Elves doesn't function in a way that is conducive to such discussions. Storm dudes can look at an opening 7 and...fuck I dunno...talk about all kinds of lines for days and days. But with our opening 7s, there's usually just one or two correct ways to play them. And so many of our plays happen over multiple turns. There's no intelligent way to discuss a play when everything you're talking about can be turned upside down if you whiff on a Glimpse draw or topdeck a land instead of a dude or whatever. "Oh, I had this sick line where I tapped for a bunch of mana but then I drew two lands in a row. Discuss." Or "Oh, I had four mana. Then I cast Natural Order and he died. Discuss." Or "Yeah, I was playing towards drawing a Green Sun but then I didn't. So I just bounced my Visionary and then managed to not draw a Green Sun again. Then I passed the turn. Discuss?"

Haha ... my friend, I think there is always a conservative and correct line of play in Storm decks also and I see this being the case in our Facebook discussions of scenarios. You can opt for yolo plays with both decks, but according to your opening 7 there are never be more than 1-2 playlines that make sense.

The deck isn't boring (for most of us, anyways). And the problem isn't losing - there's plenty of discussion in threads where decks are durdle-city and/or have poor win ratios. The problem is just that...there's nothing really riveting to talk about at the moment. If somebody came in here with a question about a particular play, then we could ham it up about that. But people aren't really doing that. I dunno why.

I fear its a bit more complex given that the deck had a popularity high as Julian started his stream after winning the BoM. As it was obvious that the deck reached a cap of development and Treasure Cruise, Miracles and OmniTell cemented their position in the metagame with certain advantages over Elves, people felt like they fought uphill battles several times during tournaments and we heared outcries here in this very thread. Maybe Julians switch to the dark side also sent a questionable signal to players that he gave up trying to fight the deck. Dunno. I suspect that, with given respect to all, players lurking here and following his stream just followed his example which would explain why there are no longer questions asked by these players longing for expertise against certain matchups. I doubt there are much more than 10 users left checking the thread or caring for the deck atm.

I personally haven't been posting as much because I've been distracted by other IRL things. Also, the meta has shifted in a way that is unfavorable to this deck...so maybe people have moved on to other strategies/decks/threads? Who knows? But asking why a thread is dead is hardly ever a way to make it un-dead. You should be the change you wish to see in the world (GANDHI) and...I dunno...ask a really good question to kick this DISCUSS-A-THON off properly.

Ok. Go!

Lol. I'm certain, given forum and stream activity, that most people previously participating or lurking, just followed the trend towards the current DtBs. If you want a discussion, then let me ask you guys, who I'm going to meet in Lille from this thread? ;)

[Julian23]

Elves isn't Tier 1 anymore, there's too much combo and the two Tier 0.5 decks of the format, Miracles and OmniTell are pretty poor matchups for us in the first place.

It can still wreck havoc on midrange, but who are we kidding here? If right now you deck's point is to cast Siege Rhinos and Bloodbraid Elves, you probably didn't get the memo.

/edit: @Peter: I played Elves in the last 3 Daily Events, but didn't stream it. Finishes were 1-2, 2-2 and 3-1. Every Daily Event I played against either 2 or 3 combo decks; problem was that I had all these Chokes and Krosan Grips int he sideboard because of Miracles. That's the real problem of the deck these days. You're beating either Combo or Miracles. #PickYourPoison.

[Zombie]

The thread is dead because the deck is mostly solved. Aside from like 5 slots tuned for your meta, there aren't a ton of changes to discuss. Sometimes people bring in off-the-wall suggestions or get mildly excited about some new printing that maayyyybbbeee won't suck. But aside from that, there isn't much to talk about. This isn't like the Storm boards where people can discuss really long lines of play because Elves doesn't function in a way that is conducive to such discussions. Storm dudes can look at an opening 7 and...fuck I dunno...talk about all kinds of lines for days and days. But with our opening 7s, there's usually just one or two correct ways to play them. And so many of our plays happen over multiple turns. There's no intelligent way to discuss a play when everything you're talking about can be turned upside down if you whiff on a Glimpse draw or topdeck a land instead of a dude or whatever. "Oh, I had this sick line where I tapped for a bunch of mana but then I drew two lands in a row. Discuss." Or "Oh, I had four mana. Then I cast Natural Order and he died. Discuss." Or "Yeah, I was playing towards drawing a Green Sun but then I didn't. So I just bounced my Visionary and then managed to not draw a Green Sun again. Then I passed the turn. Discuss?"

I'm sure this is pretty much spot on and I kinda predicted this point about 1,5 years ago hinting at the problem that this deck is very dependant on printings of a certain creature type like Goblins or Meerfolks and that WotC moved a bit away from those outside of core sets. Zenikar has elces if I remeber correctly? Maybe there's something new for tribal decks coming within the next block then, but at the current state the deck has hit a development ********

I agree with these sentiments. Elves is just locked, maindeck-wise, and doesn't have that many useful adjustments it can make. The tension between Glimpse, NO and combo hate cards and the limitations of f.ex. Green Sun just don't help. Storm is a very similar deck, but it has much more leeway to adjust to a metagame because the deck cares about casting spells, not playing green creatures that are preferably of creature type Elf, and the sources of the deck's power don't fight each other. Elves wants to play stuff out, but that makes Glimpse highly mediocre. No such issues in Storm. There's also a bit more leeway to integrate disruption because you're building a hand, not a board. I think a lot of tuning space would open up if one or more of those tensions could be solved. It's unlikely though, given the tension-causing cards are pretty much a who's who of the banned list.

[Lemnear]

I agree with these sentiments. Elves is just locked, maindeck-wise, and doesn't have that many useful adjustments it can make. The tension between Glimpse, NO and combo hate cards and the limitations of f.ex. Green Sun just don't help. Storm is a very similar deck, but it has much more leeway to adjust to a metagame because the deck cares about casting spells, not playing green creatures that are preferably of creature type Elf, and the sources of the deck's power don't fight each other. Elves wants to play stuff out, but that makes Glimpse highly mediocre. No such issues in Storm. There's also a bit more leeway to integrate disruption because you're building a hand, not a board. I think a lot of tuning space would open up if one or more of those tensions could be solved. It's unlikely though, given the tension-causing cards are pretty much a who's who of the banned list.

Storm has it's mana in hand while elves has it on the field and can attack with it if needed. It's just two sides of the medal with individual downsides in terms of Counterbalance or Terminus.

I however do see and mentioned solutions to the dilemma to sit between Counterbalance, Batterskull and Omniscience as an Elves player and that is playing 4 MB Reclamation Sages and SB Korsan Grips instead of Decay. 3cc is a bitch to counter for Counterbalance in the first place and you can kill Miracles SDT unlike Decay and meddle with their Terminus' and cardselection. I've taken notice of Wasteland becoming more popular in Miracles (because of Boseiju -> S&T) so the Bayou is potentially in grave danger for the upcoming months if you plan on BG removal. Grip and Sage can both kill OmniScience, Counterbalance and Batterskull (instead of just the germ-token) and dropping Sage to S&T while your opponent choose an OmniScience is a pretty nice way of stopping them (unless they can combo out at instant speed with Sage's trigger on the Stack via Fireminds Foresight into Release the Ants). Edit: I wanna see how OmniTell handles SB Discard + SB Grips + 4 NO into Ruric + 4 MB Sages

hope this is enough to spark a new discussion

[Shagstaman]

sadly with omnitell, they get 1 free dig and potenitally before you can grip =( And with how streamlined that deck is, 1 freebie should be enough to lock the game up the following turn, and if it's not, best believe they took FoW and a blue card.

it does sadden me that the meta has shifted so heavily to two of our bad matchups, but it won't deter me from stuffing little green men down people's throat! this is partly because I'm stubborn and love this deck and partly because I don't feel like buying the $500 worth of dual lands I need to make another deck...lol

[Zombie]

If you have that many Sages+Grips, you can just plop a Sage for Omni and hold a Grip in hand. They have to have a pretty godly hand to win vs. Grip on Omni in response to their Wish.

4 Sages sounds like you'd need to adopt a bit more of a Rock-style approach with more classical manadorks to get that sweet, sweet 3 mana on T2 (as well as just being too much - we already have a maindeck Ruric we can plop on the table given the opportunity).

Would incidentally also help actually casting discard while building a board, too.


//Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Llanowar Elves
4 Quirion Ranger

3 Elvish Visionary
4 Wirewood Symbiote

4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers

1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Reclamation Sage

//Spells
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature

//Lands
4 Gaea's Cradle
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
2 Forest
2 Bayou

3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Wooded Foothills

//Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod / Sylvan Library
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
3 Krosan Grip
2 Extirpate

[MegaManR]

Zombie, I like your ideas, though it will make glimpse chaining slightly less reliable, which is something we would love to do against these decks, if possible, before they flatout win or lock us out.

I played in the Providence Legacy IQ a month or so ago and faced back to back Miracles and Show and Tell to start the day... 0-4 was not a fun day. I'm heading to Worcester tomorrow for the SCG Open and would be down to test the ideas that you suggest just for fun. It can't really hurt, right, might as well try. I'm the same as Shagstaman in that I don't have a huge Legacy card pool, so this is really my only Legacy deck. I'm slowly working on (or at least interested in) building the Green Stompy List that Lejay "created" over the Winter, but until then, it's Elves!...

Will report back tomorrow night. I'm thinking this is what I'll use:

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Elvish Mystic
2 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
3 Reclamation Sage
4 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
2 Forest
2 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Choke
1 Null Rod
1 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
1 Wren's Run Packmaster (or Progenitus - not sure)
2 Krosan Grip

[Shagstaman]

being maindecked against the two boogeymen of the format should be interesting--let us know how it goes!

Hopefully those sages don't pop up vs bug delver at the wrong time!