Hi, just in this time i want to find some another hate for pyromacers and decays in my meta are mostly ur and 4c delvers and jund so jotun grunt seems to by fine agains quickly expanded graveyards for dig or loam and is nice with cavern for giants .. embargo could by fine agains deck with 12 creatures like delvers or bug but is bad for pyroblast , arbiter is findable by ugin and is also cool agains creatures and decays and defense of the heart again for pyrmancers with no miss trigers but i think they can't or all tokens but still very depends on situation i tried this card one local tournament and resolved 2 times agains jund and uwr and i won because they side out creature removals so they coudn't kill their creatures like meddlings :))) just very nuts win card but timing is worse ..Originally Posted by Hopo
Hi.
This weekend I made Top 8 in the LCL (Liga Catalana Legacy) in Barcelona, Spain.
75 players and 7 rounds of swiss + Top 8.
5-1-1 and lost in quarter finals with the following list, design to beat Bug variants and Omnitell:
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
4 Misty rainforest
1 Polluted delta
4 Tropical island
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka bog
1 Glacial chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Cavern of souls
1 Emrakul the aeon's thorn
1 Kozilek butcher of truth
4 Primeval titan
2 Oracle of mull daya
1 Trinket mage
3 Sensei's divining top
3 Expedition map
2 Candelabra of tawnos
4 Brainstorm
4 Repeal
3 Show & tell
4 Crop rotation
2 Ugin the spirit dragon
Sideboard:
4 Force of will
4 Flusterstorm
2 Arcane laboratory
3 Krosan grip
2 Engineered explosives
Tournament matches were:
Omnitel 2-1
Mentor miracles 1-2
Sylvan plug 2-0
BUG Control 2-1
Jund 2-1
BUG Aggrocontrol 2-1
Team America ID
Cuarter Finals vs 4c Delver with white. 1-2
*My English is not very good, so I can't answer many questions, sorry.
Is Sphere of Resistance a valid choice? Most people play Arcane Laboratory, just wondering about the pros and cons... Casting cost of only 2 mana could be interesting against many combo decks?Thanks for Brainstorming, informations etc ;-)
On this note, I want to ask about some interesting SB choices I've been testing. For the past ~3 weeks I've been playing the GW 12-Post that T8'd an SCG Open a few weeks back (don't remember the pilot's name offhand), with a few small tweaks, the only significant one being play around with the mana to fit 4 Caverns. While I know conventional wisdom says that the UG Post is a "better" deck and that people mostly play the Mono-G version for budget considerations, I have been playing the GW version by choice, as I can easily play the UG version. I have forces, flusterstorms, Trops, etc., but the smooth engine of this deck caught my eye and I've been extremely impressed by how consistent it is. Explore is absolutely ridiculous in Legacy, and I feel like I'm significantly ahead in every game that I'm able to resolve it, even just once. In a format that's all about tempo and where most opponents stop somewhere between 3-5 lands, having 6+ lands out by the end of turn 4 feels so absurdly strong. I've been so happy with my results when I'm able to resolve an Explore that I'm very interested in testing the Exploration-based Titanless build that's discussed here a few pages back. The only thing discouraging me from trying it right now is the fact that If I actually like the list I'll be compelled to buy 4 Candelabras instead of the 2 that I'm planning on purchasing at the moment.
With regards to the comment that I quoted, Postman brings up a great point about the 2 vs. 3 CMC difference between Sphere and Laboratory. In that vein, the difference between playing this type of hate on T2 and T3 can mean the difference between winning and losing, and I think I've found an excellent solution for GW players looking for Storm/Omni hate: Aethersworn Canonist. Against the decks where it matters, they won't be playing removal for it maindeck, and no one will be expecting it G2, so don't expect them to board bounce. After G2 it's not quite as strong against UR Omni, who can board in Pyroclasm, but still excellent G3 vs. Elves and Storm. Storm will be forced to dig for their bounce spell one cantrip per turn, and Elves will only be able to play one little green man per turn until they hit 4 mana for GSZ into Rec-sage.
I'm playing 2x Canonist, 1x Krosan Grip (trying to find room for AT LEAST 1 more, if not 2), 1x Nevermore and 1x Iona in the slots where Leyline of Sanctity was from the SCG list. I found that card, as always, to be either amazing or downright awful, and being able to hard cast it did nothing to impact its playability. It's the kind of hate that you want on Turn 1 or not at all. The only matchup I found it to be somewhat useful in, and not just cute, was vs. Burn, and it still doesn't matter enough to make the chances of winning that matchup any better. I played 3 games with a friend (not a huge sample size by any means), and every game came down to the same thing: if he draws one Price of Progress, I lost, and if he didn't draw it, I won. Leyline does nothing to stop PoP, so I'd rather take my chances without it than try to improve an already bad matchup by maybe 5%. Leyline was nice against UBx decks to protect the hand from discard, but feels in no way necessary considering how well this deck plays both OFF the top and WITH a Top. Nevermore is cheeky, and probably not good enough for Legacy, but I threw it in because I needed one more card and I love Meddling Mage. So far it's won me a game vs. Elves already by naming NO while I had a Canonist out, slowing him down enough for me to Prime Time into Tabernacle while he had ~4-5 creatures out and no Cradle yet. I only made my SB changes last night, so I'll have to see how it plays out against other decks with more testing. I could see it being good enough to up to 2 or 3 if it does enough work against combo.
Here's the rest of my list for anyone who's curious:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
2 Natural Order
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath
SB:
1 All Is Dust
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Sacred Ground
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Please share any comments/thoughts about my decklist! I'm new to the archetype, but I feel like I've finally found MY deck after nearly 3 years of Legacy, playing nearly every tempo/combo deck in the format! I've already enjoyed a ton of success with this deck, and I can't wait to tune it into the unstoppable monster that will earn me the reputation as "The Post Guy" at my LGS.
That was my list at SCG in Providence..I felt the same way about leyline and decided to drop it for 3 Krosan grip. I also tested choke, which didn't feel right either. I'm not sure 4 cavern is really good since it can screw your ability to cast explore, crop rotation and the like. 2 cavern may be fine though.On this note, I want to ask about some interesting SB choices I've been testing. For the past ~3 weeks I've been playing the GW 12-Post that T8'd an SCG Open a few weeks back (don't remember the pilot's name offhand), with a few small tweaks, the only significant one being play around with the mana to fit 4 Caverns. While I know conventional wisdom says that the UG Post is a "better" deck and that people mostly play the Mono-G version for budget considerations, I have been playing the GW version by choice, as I can easily play the UG version. I have forces, flusterstorms, Trops, etc., but the smooth engine of this deck caught my eye and I've been extremely impressed by how consistent it is. Explore is absolutely ridiculous in Legacy, and I feel like I'm significantly ahead in every game that I'm able to resolve it, even just once. In a format that's all about tempo and where most opponents stop somewhere between 3-5 lands, having 6+ lands out by the end of turn 4 feels so absurdly strong. I've been so happy with my results when I'm able to resolve an Explore that I'm very interested in testing the Exploration-based Titanless build that's discussed here a few pages back. The only thing discouraging me from trying it right now is the fact that If I actually like the list I'll be compelled to buy 4 Candelabras instead of the 2 that I'm planning on purchasing at the moment.
With regards to the comment that I quoted, Postman brings up a great point about the 2 vs. 3 CMC difference between Sphere and Laboratory. In that vein, the difference between playing this type of hate on T2 and T3 can mean the difference between winning and losing, and I think I've found an excellent solution for GW players looking for Storm/Omni hate: Aethersworn Canonist. Against the decks where it matters, they won't be playing removal for it maindeck, and no one will be expecting it G2, so don't expect them to board bounce. After G2 it's not quite as strong against UR Omni, who can board in Pyroclasm, but still excellent G3 vs. Elves and Storm. Storm will be forced to dig for their bounce spell one cantrip per turn, and Elves will only be able to play one little green man per turn until they hit 4 mana for GSZ into Rec-sage.
I'm playing 2x Canonist, 1x Krosan Grip (trying to find room for AT LEAST 1 more, if not 2), 1x Nevermore and 1x Iona in the slots where Leyline of Sanctity was from the SCG list. I found that card, as always, to be either amazing or downright awful, and being able to hard cast it did nothing to impact its playability. It's the kind of hate that you want on Turn 1 or not at all. The only matchup I found it to be somewhat useful in, and not just cute, was vs. Burn, and it still doesn't matter enough to make the chances of winning that matchup any better. I played 3 games with a friend (not a huge sample size by any means), and every game came down to the same thing: if he draws one Price of Progress, I lost, and if he didn't draw it, I won. Leyline does nothing to stop PoP, so I'd rather take my chances without it than try to improve an already bad matchup by maybe 5%. Leyline was nice against UBx decks to protect the hand from discard, but feels in no way necessary considering how well this deck plays both OFF the top and WITH a Top. Nevermore is cheeky, and probably not good enough for Legacy, but I threw it in because I needed one more card and I love Meddling Mage. So far it's won me a game vs. Elves already by naming NO while I had a Canonist out, slowing him down enough for me to Prime Time into Tabernacle while he had ~4-5 creatures out and no Cradle yet. I only made my SB changes last night, so I'll have to see how it plays out against other decks with more testing. I could see it being good enough to up to 2 or 3 if it does enough work against combo.
Here's the rest of my list for anyone who's curious:
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 Ancient Stirrings
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Crop Rotation
4 Explore
2 Natural Order
3 Pithing Needle
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Forest
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Savannah
1 Snow-Covered Forest
3 Vesuva
4 Windswept Heath
SB:
1 All Is Dust
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Krosan Grip
1 Nevermore
1 Oblivion Stone
1 Pithing Needle
3 Rest in Peace
2 Sacred Ground
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Please share any comments/thoughts about my decklist! I'm new to the archetype, but I feel like I've finally found MY deck after nearly 3 years of Legacy, playing nearly every tempo/combo deck in the format! I've already enjoyed a ton of success with this deck, and I can't wait to tune it into the unstoppable monster that will earn me the reputation as "The Post Guy" at my LGS.
Aside from nevermore which I have considered but decided it was greedy expecting double W, I have considered rule of law in place if arcane laboratory as well as Ethersworn canonist. Not sure which one is completely correct. If you drop a never more off show and tell against omniscience what do you name? Emrakul? Well great they can still draw into a wish and kill never more then cast emrakul. Do you nane a wish? Well if they have cantrips and Emrakul they can still get that going. It's not perfect but what I settled on was a Terastodon main board with 2 more in the side. It fits the natural order package and it works really well to kill omniscience off a show and tell. It's also a trigger so they HAVE to have instant speed answers. Maybe that combined with canonist would be what we need to keep them off multiple spells and kill omniscience withe relative ease.
The burn match up can be tough. One thing I considered for it was running something along the lines of feed the clan or Wurmcoil engine. Feed should cast to gain 10 since we can survive long enough to get a titian. Wurmcoil just takes over the match up. I've considered both but haven't settled. Those could be options as well.
Awesome to hear back from the very person whose list I started with! Grats on your T8, I love the deck. Do you agree that the GW build is a fundamentally different approach to the 12-Post plan, as opposed to just a budget option? I honestly like this deck's sideboard and gameplan better than the UG version which seems to be much slower on paper (I have yet to actually play it though, to be fair).
Regarding Cavern, I had the same fears initially, and I was convinced I was being too greedy playing 4, but out of the 100+ games that I've tested so far on MODO with my list, I can remember maybe 2 games where I lost because I couldn't find a G source to play my instants/sorceries. I felt that in both of those cases I probably should have just mulligan'd the hand anyway. The vast majority of the time, though, 9 green sources (10 with Dryad Arbor, but I don't really count it because of summoning sickness) seems to be enough to cast my ancient stirrings and explores. By contrast, I know that I've won many many more because I was guaranteed my turn 3-5 Titan through countermagic. I don't like having to Crop Rotation into a Cavern because when I was initially playing the deck without any Caverns, I lost more than one game to decks like Grixis Control when they Forced my Titan and killed me in the next 2-3 turns before I could land another threat. Crop Rotation for Cavern feels really loose because if it gets countered you're at a massive tempo loss from the land that you sacrificed. I think there's no denying that it's greedy, and over hundreds of games you might lose a handful of them because of the Caverns, but I think the guaranteed T3-5 Prime Time has won me many more games for the small opportunity cost. Top is probably the biggest player in my ability to get away with this few G sources. I can't believe how amazing that card is after so many years of hating it and not wanting to play it.
Nevermore is almost definitely not good enough to make the final cut, I just thought it would be something worth trying. I don't see myself boarding it in against Omnitell, but I would probably name Cunning Wish with it, not Emrakul. Like you said though, doesn't seem good enough vs. that deck. The biggest benefit that I see from Aethersworn Canonist is that after casting Show and Tell, the Omnitell player can't follow up with anything (assuming they haven't removed Aethersworn Canonist first, which still takes time if they have to Cunning Wish for bounce, buying you time to find Krosan Grip). They'll be forced to Show and Tell, drop Omniscience and pass turn, allowing you the opportunity to Krosan Grip without them holding priority after Show and Tell to cast something with Omniscience. I'll definitely be trying Terastodon, though. Seems right in line with what the deck likes to do and I've seen the same solution in the weird Post list with Deathrite Shaman from Kyoto.
For Burn, Feed the Clan sounds like a good idea to try. The thing that makes the matchup really harsh is Sulfuric Vortex. I feel like you need to gain at least 3-5 life before it hits or you won't be able to live long enough to remove it with Ulamog.
And rest for the weary wins 8 life instead from the 5 of feed the clan and making a land drop is not strange. Also if the green card triggers to win 10 is because you are already wining.
Aldo why not 4 tops? I think is one of the best card. And more in the non blue deck.
Rest for the weary may be the better option being able to play it earlier before the threat. As far as the part about having a titan on board. Even having titan, if I am using chasm to stay alive, I am semi locked out since the burn player begins holding spells for the moment I have to let go of chasm.
It was personal preference. I never liked running 4 top in anything. 3 always seemed fine to me. Plus stirrings in way more efficient at digging than brainstorm.
On a side note:
Me playing the Gw version is not because of budget concerns. I have access to the UG version any time I decide I want to pick it up. The reason I play the Gw version is because I find it to be the better deck. More consistent at building it's mana and therefore less reliant on show and tell.
Also playing white why no circle of protection red? Stops pop easy.
Yeah 3 tops with stirings seems fine.
Actually running that, plus etutor in the board would open a lot of options. Go tutor an oblivion ring in response to show and tell, top to draw it and put it in. CoP red would be great. We have mana for days to activate it. I honestly can't believe I didn't think of that. I run CoP in my pox build with white, I run it in DnT
;)
Also why the deck llays sniw covered lands? Just pimp?
Also why no maps? Think is quite good but my be there is a reasoning.
And instead of the 3-4th extra cavern what land should be played there? May be a plaing and another forest? I like having basics to cast all my spells eveb under blood moon.
We had an our South Florida Magic Invitational on the 12th, and I took it down with UG Post, there's an article with a link to the stream here, I was on camera for top 4 and the finals, along with my round one loss to Price of Progress.
http://southfloridamagic.com/sfm-top-4/
It was split format but I went 5-1 overall in legacy. There's nothing really revolutionary about the list and I know most of the discussion has moved away from the build I used but it was still strong.
Haha when I first re sleeved this deck (because of Ugin being printed) I had snow covered forest right there. So I put them in instead of my full arts that weren't as conveniently available. They are still considered a basic land so they get past wasteland and blood moon.
No map because Stirrings digs 5 deep and using natural order to get titan, oracle, hardcast titan, etc. all help ramp hard as is. I just never found map necessary. If I ran without natural order I would add maps in place of orders and oracles.
After testing some of the lists with Standstill, I've come to the conclusion, at least in my testing, that it improves some matchups but can be awkward in others where they get early pressure.
Does anyone else here who did testing with Standstill have any results they could share? Rock Lee - if you played Standstills at SCG Worcester could you possibly fill us in on how that particular list fared and if Standstill is worth pursuing further in this list?
Have you considered
1) Sylvan primordial instead of Terastodon
2) For burn, Elderscale Wurm reads "GG".
Those are definite possibilities. Natural order for Wurm would be great in the burn match up. Primordial is probably fine for the show match up, but terastodon can present a faster clock if I hit omniscience and 2 of my lands or whatever expendable I may have on board so I can kill them before they can rebuild and I don't have a terastodon in hand any more.
All of the SB tech in the past few posts sounds awesome, I'll have to think about what to cut to try some of this stuff.
I played at my LGS' weekly Legacy event tonight and we had a decent turn out of 13 people. I piloted the same list that I shared a few posts above, except with +2 Krosan Grip -1 Iona -1 Nevermore, and I finished 3-1 to split top 4. Matchups were 2:1 over D&T, 2:1 over Painter, 2:1 over D&T again, and 1:2 to Storm piloted by James Rynkiewicz.
D&T matches were total blowouts, win or lose. Either I went Top -> Explore -> Mul Daya -> Titan -> win, or the D&T players went Vial -> Port -> Wasteland -> kill me with dudes while I'm struggling to build mana. As with every fair matchup, Explore felt like the key card to draw. Mul Daya also did incredible work in this matchup, living for 1-3 turns every time before my opponent found a Swords.
Painter I got really lucky to have a basic forest in every opening draw, even though my opponent never T1 Blood Mooned me. G2 I actually lost to him grinding me out with dudes after landing a T3 Magus of the Moon just before I was about to hit Prime Time. Games 1 and 3 were very much like the D&T wins: Exploring my way to victory.
James was friendly and personable just like the last time I played him. Unfortunately, I was playing a much less favored matchup this time. Game 1 he went off on T2 or 3 and I couldn't do anything but watch. Game 2 he tried to go off on fucking turn 1, and Ad Nauseum suicided. He saw my Ethersworn Canonist with probe at the start of the turn, but didn't draw a way to combo or discard it before hitting 4 life, drew one more card flipped Tendrils. Game 3 is similar to Game 1. He removes my Explore and Crop Rotation on his T1/2, then combos on T3 while I have no response. This matchup feels like one of the ones that we can do the least to affect post SB. The discard will usually beat you unless you manage to land Top on turn 1.
I'm super excited to play again next week. This deck is extremely strong and super skill intensive. I'm having WAY more fun playing it than I was playing Omnitell, and that's coming from someone who is an admitted combo fanatic. I also totally agree with Aaron about the deck being a more consistent approach to 12-Post than the UG version. After my few weeks of playtesting I feel comfortable saying I would never play this archetype without Explore. It's probably the best card in the deck.
UW build sounds interesting, maybe I will give it a try. But your horrible MU against Storm would be better with the UG build ;-) Access to counter magic plus Brainstorm to hide answers from discard is really huge! Maybe UW is better against fair decks, but I think UG is almost the only way to go in order to improve the worst MUs, fast combo decks :-/
I'll have to see if I can find some kind of way to Frankenstein Explore into the UG shell. The premise of countermagic does sound appealing, but for now I can't imagine playing the deck without acceleration. I'm content having a bad matchup to fast combo if it means I can crush every fair deck. There's very little combo in my local meta. If I can consistently make the Top 8 / Top 4 cut in my Legacy weeklies that will be enough to make me happy with the deck for now.
You can play the UG build with acceleration as well. S&T into Titan is one of the best boosts in legacy ;-) But there are other ways as well, I played Oracle of Mul Daya in UG (but didn't like it enough to keep it) and maybe I'll try Explore again. But those cards are great in the first few turns, mid- and especially late game they are dead cards you don't want to see. I try to play as many cards as possible which are always good, such as Repeal etc. Explore is better compared to Oracle, at least imo, because of the card draw.
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