Then I'll say what Philip would say if he cared enough to chime in: don't make changes to a 75 unless you know what you're doing.Originally Posted by Poron
I loose too much to MUD.
MUD is great against cantrips decks (Elves included), combo and Miracle. With this I have said like 80% of the format..
In my opinion it will see much more play and we need to be prepared against it. 1 Disenchant and 1 Wear/Tear, in my opinion are not enough.
I see plays like
turn 1 Lightning Greaves
turn 2 Metalworker - > Ugin or Kuldotha Forgemaster, switch from worker to kuldotha the Greaves. Go search for Staff of Domination, switch the greaves back to Metalworker, GG
or they can always make a turn 1 Chalice or Trinisphere..
Name 3 solid ways of beating mud with a 4 ponder list.
Also, to whomever posted it, stop putting words in someone's mouth. It may very well be what Philip would say, but until he says it, it's what you say. The smug in this thread often borders on tangible levels.
Edit: Also, mess with your list all you want, if you are having trouble with a match-up, do whatever you have to do to figure out how to win. Testing never hurts anything ever.
From my phone. I do my best, dammit!
It seems like a bad idea to sideboard out 4 of your best card to find your 1-of sideboard card against MUD. I know they play chalice of the void, but I still don't think I'd want to bring my tops out. Here are some cards you can consider against MUD (Disclaimer: I haven't tested these cards, but they are what I would consider testing first. I'm sure somebody else that has gotten testing in has a better suggestion.):
- Serenity: Usually a board wipe + time walk, but sucks as a topdeck if you need an answer right away. Can be problematic if they ramp into Ugin, so it's not my favorite anymore.
- Shattering Spree: This gets through chalice of the void quite nicely due to how replicate works. Heavy red is a downside of course, but you can use it early to get rid of some of their cards. Can take out metalworker right away, which is nice.
You just shouldn't try to win the 12-post matchup, in my opinion. Playing cards to make an "unwinnable" matchup maybe winnable is just foolish, especially when that deck is such a low percentage of the meta. But, if you really want something to help in that matchup blood moon is not the card for it (although moon is way more useful in other places). Instead, you should play Ruination or From the Ashes (I'm really not sure which is better). It's a shame Bribery is too slow, because that would be really funny....
At the end of the day I think these decks just require too specialized of answers and that you don't even gain that much win percentage by trying to force answers to them. Unless they're a significant percentage of your meta I would probably ignore them in your sideboarding strategies. If your meta is small though, you might end up vs. that 12-post or MUD player every week though, which would force you to adapt of course.
I would go the Japanese route if 12-Post becomes a significant portion of the meta and play 2 Wastelands.
MUD isn't a horrible MU but it is tougher. However, they can rarely beat a Blood Moon + Moat (yes, I play this card. Yes, it is cute. Yes, it wins games, and my philosophy with Miracles is your non-land permanents should win you games), since then you just FoW/counter their Ugin and Swords their Hellkite.
It's not really about that. It's not about caring. But before we get to that, yes, that's what I'd say. Here's a quote from my latest article:
Start at a well-proven list. I know net-decking isn’t very liked, especially in communities of Eternal formats, but that’s just casual nonsense. If you want to succeed at any given tournament you want to maximize your chances, in every way possible. Priding yourself in playing your very own deck is something you can certainly do at your local tournament, but a Grand Prix is no place for that. Take a well proven list and test the hell out of it before you change anything. I’ll get to what “testing” actually means a little later.
One of the worst things to do is to take a well proven list and make some changes before actually trying it out. If somebody wins with a list, then word has it that they knew what they were doing. Most of the slots were filled with a purpose in mind, most cards chosen in hindsight. Changing a Flusterstorm to a Spell Pierce just because you like it better is a sin. Nothing less.
So, to adress the point of me not "caring enough" to chime in: I have a couple of reasons why I don't participate in discussions right now:
1) GP Lille. I think that speaks for itself, right?
2) Redundant mistakes. People make mistakes, and that's fine. And I pointed them out, again, again and again. But whenever somebody asks the same question again or does the same mistake, then I have a hard time seeing a reason to explain it again.
3) Time. I just don't have that much time for Magic at the moment and cannot engage in every discussion that relates to Miracles.
I hope I could explain why I don't chime in at every occasion right now.
If you have any questions, make sure to check out the AMA I did last week, and if there are any questions left, let me know.
Oh, and Null Rod is unplayable. Just in case there was any confusion about it. It's the beef of the vegans or the shotgun of the taekwondoin. That's how unplayable it is. But many people play unplayable cards in their lists, so you might be in good company. One way or another.
Greetings
@Playing against MUD generally and a word on Null Rod in your SB: I have beaten MUD before with stock ponder lists that had no specific hate for them. I am talking about mostly the Cloudpost variant of MUD, though I guess some people still play Welder MUD as I played against it recently on modo for whatever reason. It's not as bad as Eldrazi Post, but it's still hard. Our role in the MU is one of aggro-control, we need to be somewhat proactive, get some thing going sooner rather than later, while answering their threatening cards at the same time. Our goal is to kill them before they play something we can't handle. In sideboarding you want to bring in more win conditions and cards that help you interact with them. Anything that is a one mana spell I am hesitant to bring in unless it really helps in the math up so as to avoid dead draws when there is a chalice on 1 on the table. Oh, and in sideboarding I shave or sometimes cut all my Ponders depending on how much I have to bring in. Yes, I just said that even while still strongly preferring Ponder Miracles to any other variant.
This plan has worked out pretty well for me in the past. Their deck is certainly more powerful than ours, especially since they've started playing Ugin. However, they have no way to filter their draws and very few outlets of Card Advantage that draws them more cards (I think a lot of lists play a Staff of Nin and some Coercive Portal). Thus, our way of beating them is by being able to more consistently enact our game plan and sometimes making their deck even more inconsistent via Vendilion Cliquing them or Jace Fateseals. This means keeping your precious Sensei's Divining Tops in. Many games I've won against MUD is because of that card.
And so, the point is you can beat MUD Post with a stock Ponder list if you play tightly and sideboard correctly. However, if you're playing in a local meta where there's a good chance you'll run into this deck often, sure, play some hate for it to make it easier on yourself. In addition to what has been suggested, maybe try out Back to Basics. This was idea was given to me by one of my Magic friends who plays MUD post regularly himself. Gives a similar effect to Blood Moon but is actually better against this deck. But for the love of god, don't play Null Rod or anything else that messes with your Tops. Just don't.
EDIT: In relation to Jace in this MU, in general I prefer using Jace as a Brainstorm machine. I've done that a lot in this MU too, but it's really game state dependent. Like if they have lightning greaves or cavern on board that may make me more inclined to use Jace fateseal instead to mess with their deck and/or go for ultimate.
In regards to Legacy:
This a bit of a departure from the previous conversation about Null Rod, but I had a question regarding miracle variants.
I currently play the legends list and I love the main deck interaction with Venser/Clique/Snaps, while I understand the strengths and weakness of each variant, I'm curious why people prefer the Ponder lists over the Legends list. Is it more personal preference than anything else, or do people think the ponder list is more consistent?
no one can speak for "the people" so it's pointless to discuss what does the people think.
If you look at the SCG result closer, outside of Lossett, no one can play his 75 well. Musser did it once, but that was before Dig. All the Legend builds that Top 8 at SCG circuit are either before Dig, or in the one-day IQ, or done by Lossett only (he day 2 with it at Worcester). The most successful build involving Legend build at GP-size event is the GP Kyoto winner, which runs a Ponder-Legend hybrid. I don't see Reid Duke's 3 Digs list generating buzz and getting popular either.
In short, Ponder Miracles is the most straightforward entry point for all who are interested in Miracles.
I'm sure that it's also consistency. You don't see Legends builds consistently placing high because they lose to themselves more frequently that the Ponder build does. Joe is just such a master pilot at his list that he can get out of many jams most players can't.
For me, I started off with the Legends build actually, and I enjoyed the raw power when I could get the wheels turning, but when I didn't draw gas the deck just fell flat on its face. Ponder fixes a lot of those problems at the expense of raw power.
Recent SCG tournament shows us that you Miracle players only got a single player in the whole of top 16 who made 8th (so top 8). So here is my question? How was there only a single Miracles player who made it in the top 16 places? I'm usually seeing Miracles place top places constantly. I have hardly played any Miracles decks or against any so what exactly was different at this tournament that made Miracles players have a bad time?
It's only one event, and people have started to learn to play against Miracles, pack good sideboard cards for Miracles, and play decks with strong Miracles matchups. I don't expect to see some kind of major fall off Miracles' results anytime soon, but I do expect them to come down from the stratosphere over the next few months.
Add in that many Miracles players are not the greatest at the deck (expected of the most popular entry-into-Legacy deck) and thus are punished for not knowing the format/their deck, and it explains many of the results you'll see.
Also, at least in the States, I'm not sure Ponder Miracles has quite caught on just yet (it's getting there, though). Many people are still going for the Lossett build, and if you aren't Lossett then chances are you will do poorly with that list.
On a totally separate note, for Joe, looks like Cavern's a good idea, Mentor??? Gun-shy?
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=85809
I sense a change in the wind, or mind.
3 Vendilion and 2 Karakas find me perfectly.. I just can't be fine with Venser.
Joe, if you read me, can you help me to understand the reason for a massive use of Venser?
I am an unapologetic Philipp Schoenegger fan and I've been playing his Ponder Miracles list for a year, updating in strict accordance with the master. I've read everything he's written on the deck during that time, have listened to and taken notes from every interview and podcast. I cannot represent the Legends side of the question, nor will I put words into Philipp's mouth and attempt to say what he would say. I know what he did say, and that's enough. This question is addressed most thoroughly on the "Miracle Men" podcast, episode 37: http://everydayeternalpodcast.com/ep...7-miracle-men/
What I find so attractive about the Ponder build is its unique collision of cantrips and literature. This is the only format where we get to play 4 Ponder 4 Brainstorm 4 Sensei's Top, and it leads to this crazy control deck that's been taking down tournament after tournament for a very long time. I don't think it's a coincidence that the other top deck is Omnitell, now that it isn't a clunky 3 card combo deck, running the same number of cantrips spells. If you think cantrips are really, really good then Ponder Miracles looks great.
Literature is a weird reason to play a deck, but it's important. Anyone who does as I did and reads, listens to, and studies all the stuff Philipp put out over the course of the last few years on Miracles (and remembers it, and as long as they have a reasonable proficiency at Magic) will learn a lot... and start winning a lot. For what other deck is this true? I search in vain over the whole history of the game to find a deck that has anything to compare with this. He's not alone, there are other players and writers who have contributed a lot of important work, but for this particular deck he truly stands out.
Joe Lossett has tremendous achievements with the deck, he's a ferocious player. I do not get the sense that I could pick up his build and start playing it successfully, however. Many have tried and failed. Why should I be any different? Reid Duke has been successful with his distinct creatureless build. I read all of his stuff, tried his build, and I didn't get it. What's with the Mountain? Is there some place online where he explains how this card is not awful? I do not get the sense that either Reid Duke or Joe Lossett, for all their glory, would care about how I'm doing with the deck. I mean no disrespect to them. I have never spoken with either, and neither have I had opportunity to.
Philipp Schoenegger, on the other hand, I have contacted. He answered, and he was very helpful. His example inspired me to teach others the game. So while I can't say why "people" prefer this or that build, I know why I'm playing Ponders.
1 tournament top 16 is a very small sample size... But people have been adapting to beat miracles. I mean just look at the other decks in that top 16. A few months ago, while playing miracles I felt like I ran into bad (or even) matchups very infrequently. That top 16 has maybe 4 good/even matchups (RUG, BUG, Deathblade and Lands). The rest are all tough to beat. People are playing more stuff like bosieju, cavern of souls, young pyromancers, and SB hate cards like null rod. Miracles is definitely less good today in the meta today than it was a few months ago.
Also as others have said, a lot of the US miracles players are just playing it because "its the best deck", and they really bad at playing it.
Against MUD with miracle, Jace is the key imo. So you need to find land every turn which may be hard cause of chalice at 1 or trinisphere. I also try to keep forces for crucial threat. If i'm on the play and i can play a top, i'll probably not fow chalice @1. On the draw i will. If you have an uncontested jace on board, it should be hard for him to kill it. You will then gain a lot of time to build more mana, find wear/tear/disenchant or entreat to kill him in 1 or 2 turn
Nice post Lormador. I think this is one of the best posts in this thread for a while now. Thank you for it. It was so good that I'm now putting part of it in my sig.
In response to the part of about cantrips and Miracles, I actually have an article coming up about this topic that should be posted on Eternal Central soon. I hope you enjoy it. I'll post a link to it here once it's released.
In regards to Legacy:
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