[Deck] Turbo Depths

[adrieng]

you can cut 1-2 mox diamonds and +1 crop rotation easily. mox diamond is horrible in multiples and past turn 3. Its nice to have the extra colored sources but conditional cards arnt great. I could see that strategy working but its unlikely that they will buy more turns than discard or counterspells. Ultimately you just want more turns to play more lands. It's nice that they also hurt combo decks. Nether void is the other card that helps in buying turns. Really its probably too CMC expensive but it can buy a lot of turns.

Yes I feel I can cut down one mox diamond and one thorn for one more top and crop.

Top with tomb is ok and cutting one more green source makes me want either an other green source or top but I still think I am a bit low on green source maybe I'll cut one factory for an other green source.

Sphere gives way more time against combo decks than discard this feel obvious to me but is weaker against a larger variety of decks, in particularity thorn.

Yes I am on the BG color the red/white/blue other colour doesn't really matter but I think red is the best for pyro/reb/grudge/pyroclasme which I might switch to.

[TLK]

you can cut 1-2 mox diamonds and +1 crop rotation easily. mox diamond is horrible in multiples and past turn 3. Its nice to have the extra colored sources but conditional cards arnt great. I could see that strategy working but its unlikely that they will buy more turns than discard or counterspells. Ultimately you just want more turns to play more lands. It's nice that they also hurt combo decks. Nether void is the other card that helps in buying turns. Really its probably too CMC expensive but it can buy a lot of turns.

EDIT

It seems like you might as well just play a tempo shell like team america since it's in our colors anyways.

What's the red (Copperline Gorge) for?

[adrieng]

What's the red (Copperline Gorge) for?

Yes I am on the BG color the red/white/blue other colour doesn't really matter but I think red is the best for pyro/reb/grudge/pyroclasme which I might switch to.

It is just copperline gorge or razorverge thicket gives me side option maybe I could play some green non forest land but most of them are legendary (pendhelaven ..).
I might switch some cards of the side not decided yet.

[Lio]

Deck I will play this weekend. What do you guys think? Solely based on adrieng's list. I am sure about main deck - it's time to give white a chance, but I feel like SB has some weak spots. I expect lot of UR delver, Burn, Elves, some Miracles, some ANT, DnT so white seems like the best option to me.
[deck]
//Land (26)
1x Ancient Tomb
4x Dark Depths
1x Forest
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Horizon Canopy
2x Mana Confluence
2x Maze of Ith
2x Mishra's Factory
3x Razorverge Thicket
1x Sejiri Steppe
4x Thespian's Stage
4x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

//Artifact (17)
4x Expedition Map
4x Mox Diamond
4x Pithing Needle
1x Sensei's Divining Top
4x Sphere of Resistance

//Creature (6)

2x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Vampire Hexmage

//Instant (3)
3x Crop Rotation

//Sorcery (4)
4x Sylvan Scrying

//Enchantment (4)
4x Sylvan Library

//Sideboard (15)
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Bojuka Bog
2x Containment Priest
2x Golgari Charm
1x Karakas
2x Krosan Grip
1x Rest in Peace
1x Steely Resolve
1x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Toxic Deluge
[/DECK]

Karakas - I like having an answer to SnT and Reanimation. Also helps for paying white spells and ups the land count in matchups where I board out Maze of Ith or another lands.
Steely Resolve - singleton protection for DnT matchup.
Thalia - Thalia is awesome against plenitude of decks I expect to play against.
Containment Priest - my favorite heatebear :).

[CARD]Mox Diamond[/CARD] - when do you board them out? in control matchups like Miracles or Deathblade? How many of them if any?

[adrieng]

Lio : I didn't have time to playtest this list a lot so you might better play classic build (with carpet) if you don't expect lot of combos ie omni show and storm/turbo rea.
I am testing different builds right now but last one with 4 tomb might be ok.
As said previously apple who tested a lot mox diamond (more than) me playing the full playset might not be that good a three off might be better.
Also steely resolve is weaker than not of this world against death and taxes you can't avoid flying blockers.

If you still keep the four off mox diamond, i'ld side just one out against miracle/deathblade cause you can't avoid not having enough green in the deck, and miracle might bring blood moon after side.

[apple713]

[CARD]Mox Diamond[/CARD] - when do you board them out? in control matchups like Miracles or Deathblade? How many of them if any?

its also bad against D&T because of flicker wisp / revoker. usually all of them because you have better board options. it'll usually cost you the game if you have 2 boxes out and they get revoked.

after looking at your land situation probably don't take out more than 2. If you recall my post a page or two back that outlined the mana ratios. It's very accurate and should be followed closely.

[adrieng]

Back from some testing with mox and 2sphere.cards. I feel like the deck is less consistant than carpet.build (inconsistancy to beat tempo).
I will be back with somehow classic list but I want to find an answer to combo.
As suggested previously anyone triyed gitaxian probe in the main + side cabal therapy with flashback clunky factory/vampire.
It might be better than thoughtseize ; 3/4 probe maindeck+4 kozilek main +2/3 duress+4 cabal side.
Maybe the best option is to go with surgical in side.

[apple713]

I've done a compilation of data that allowed me to see very accurate numbers for the % cards represented in the format that we would consider threats.

All of the data was taken from tcdecks.net which is how mtgthesource determines the "decks to beat" section of the website.

What do these numbers mean? Take Miracles for example. It makes up 7.4 % of the format. If you look to the number under swords to plowshares it also says 7.4. Since they match, all of the decks that are classified as Miracles play with 4x swords to plowshares. Next look at the number under Karakas for miracles. It's much lower. The reason is because not many of the miracles decks play it, and the ones that do play low numbers of them. Next look at Row 48. It provides totals for the % of the format that plays any given card. Looking under Swords to plowshares, you will see 29.28 which means in any given tournament, you should expect to see swords 29.28% of the time.

If you don't see a card you want data for you can simply add it to the last column and drag the formulas over, but if you don't understand how to do that just type the name of the card in the same cell that vapor snag is in and it will auto populate.

the link to the document is here and you will have to download it.

I have also put the link in the primer under "issues the deck faces"

If there is other data you would like please let me know. I have made a script to run that collects the data so I could publish this every month if people comment they want me to.

The next project I'll likely be working on is assigning rough values to each matchup for every deck in the format and trying to see if there are any decks that have a significant advantage over the format. Since there really isn't any good way for me to figure this out it'll take a long time. If you have suggestions on how to collect that information PM me.

[komondor]

Apple: How has the "Currently Being Tested" version performed vs stoneblade and miracles? Seems like I can't get away from those decks. It's not that the matchup is the worst thing in the world vs my RGB build with Not of this Worlds but it's 50/50 at best. I've been focusing on modern lately and have only been playing online so I can't test out super weird versions.

[apple713]

Apple: How has the "Currently Being Tested" version performed vs stoneblade and miracles? Seems like I can't get away from those decks. It's not that the matchup is the worst thing in the world vs my RGB build with Not of this Worlds but it's 50/50 at best. I've been focusing on modern lately and have only been playing online so I can't test out super weird versions.

unfortunately I've been tied up with law school so I don't have anything significant to report as I've only managed to play scattered games.

[adrieng]

I have been testing a version with probe main and cabal therapy side.
I went 4-1 first on twenty and 2-3 drop (losing twice to omni show and one to RUGdelver with side repeal*2 and DTT which was gamebreaking).
I didn't like the probe version. I think i'll be back with pyroblast version those pyro are quite good against combo decks
and carpet is not fast enough to race them anyway.
Also the maindeck one mishra is really worth it saved me from diabolic edict twice in the twenty manners tornament.
It was also good at stalling creatures and attacking planeswalker worth the slot (in one duress main)

I have been gaining one slot recently in side playing one golgari charm one pyroclasme and one toxic deluge in side instead of 2/2 pyro/deluge.
I like it so far, I feel like it is better.

[apple713]

I have been testing a version with probe main and cabal therapy side.
I went 4-1 first on twenty and 2-3 drop (losing twice to omni show and one to RUGdelver with side repeal*2 and DTT which was gamebreaking).
I didn't like the probe version. I think i'll be back with pyroblast version those pyro are quite good against combo decks
and carpet is not fast enough to race them anyway.
Also the maindeck one mishra is really worth it saved me from diabolic edict twice in the twenty manners tornament.
It was also good at stalling creatures and attacking planeswalker worth the slot (in one duress main)

I have been gaining one slot recently in side playing one golgari charm one pyroclasme and one toxic deluge in side instead of 2/2 pyro/deluge.
I like it so far, I feel like it is better.

Are you still running creeping tar pit +1 mishras? I woukd agree mishras has applications and can aply pressure in a sale game state. additionally it can be copied and used as a blocker.

[adrieng]

I don't run creeping tar anymore just one mishra maindeck it has proven to be good.

EDIT : I am wondering about Living wish just cutting one dark depth and one vampire might be enough and it opens space to reclamation sage for omni show/blood moon and faerie macabre for reanimator.
I think it might be worth testing cutting 2 scrying one depth and one vampire for 4 LW.
I first rejected the card because I though we needed to cut three cards and side issue but didn't test it extensively.

[apple713]

I don't run creeping tar anymore just one mishra maindeck it has proven to be good.

EDIT : I am wondering about Living wish just cutting one dark depth and one vampire might be enough and it opens space to reclamation sage for omni show/blood moon and faerie macabre for reanimator.
I think it might be worth testing cutting 2 scrying one depth and one vampire for 4 LW.
I first rejected the card because I though we needed to cut three cards and side issue but didn't test it extensively.

I wish Living wish had a place here because i have 4 foil ones i've been hoping to use but, as both you and I have mentioned before, living wish slows down the deck by decreasing the number of cards you can naturally draw into during normal game play.

for the reasons you mentioned including Living wish, it is really only great if you get it T2 and can cast it. After that, its likely to be too late to be effective. Yes games to go past T2 but ideally if you're on the draw and you get to cast living wish on T3, that means the opponent has 4 turns to do whatever without being affected by it.

However, if you are using moxes then you might be able to justify it because you can cast it turn 1 and that's fantastic.

I might have included our discussion on cost/benefit of living wish in the primer.



Looking over some of the posts regarding Living wish, it would allow the use of silver bullets. If you cut the cards you suggested, you don't lose any of the 9 variable slots that are typically dedicated to discard / pyroblast. I could see running a full discard suite making living wish significantly more powerful because they can buy you that extra turn you need to cast it and have an effect on the game.

T1: discard
T2 living wish -> haddock teeg
T3: teeg with 1 mana open for crop rotation to protect it...


here are some wish boards i pulled from tcdecks.net

1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shriekmaw
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Duress
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dark Depths

list 2

2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Containment Priest
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Wasteland
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Maze of Ith
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Peacekeeper <--- one deck used this

most lists using living wish use similar cards, such as swords to plowshares, abrupt decay, discard, liliana, and Knight of the reliquary. This finding suggests that it is slow.

Below is a list that takes a very unconventional approach to dealing with creatures. exploration lets him play 2 lands, flagstones + chasm, and recur them with loam so that he can prevent all damage during opponents turn and advance his lands by sacrificing flagstones to chasm. That way he can eventually supreme verdict the board and play stage depths in 1 turn... Main deck FOW helps little against combo but sideboard supports it heavily. It also enables him to run the silver bullets in the sideboard. I think that we've seen this list before but dismissed it because its slow and clunky. It also seems easily disrupted.



Instants [16]
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
4 Force of Will
4 Intuition

Sorceries [12]
2 Life from the Loam
3 Ponder
3 Supreme Verdict
4 Living Wish

Enchantments [4]
4 Exploration

Artifacts [2]
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Explosives


Lands [26]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Maze of Ith
1 Wasteland
2 Flooded Strand
2 Savannah
2 Tundra
2 Windswept Heath
3 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Tropical Island

sideboard
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meddling Mage
1 Peacekeeper
1 Reclamation Sage
3 Spell Pierce
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Dark Depths

[adrieng]

for the reasons you mentioned including Living wish, it is really only great if you get it T2 and can cast it. After that, its likely to be too late to be effective. Yes games to go past T2 but ideally if you're on the draw and you get to cast living wish on T3, that means the opponent has 4 turns to do whatever without being affected by it.

Living wish is immediately active against reanimator (faerie macabre) and omni-show/sneak show where you can fetch reclamation sage/karakas as for myself i test gilded drake I think it can answers more things and better vs griselbrand.
I am testing the following main/side configuration :



4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Forest
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Maze of Ith
1 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Library
4 Pithing Needle
3 Vampire Hexmage
2 Sylvan Scrying

4 Living Wish

4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Vampire Hexmage
SB: 1 Dark Depths
SB: 1 Faerie Macabre
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Minister of Pain
SB: 1 Maze of Ith
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Gilded Drake
SB: 1 Golgari Charm

Maybe a one off containment priest/aven mindcensor in side but i feel faerie macabre is better vs rea and gilded drake vs sneak show
cause priest is not directly active and you have needle for sneak attack. ; Vs elf Minister of pain might be as good.
I like the fact you can fetch sulfur elemental vs deathand taxes. I am not sure if it a waste slot because of minister of pain having both cards might be worth it. I didn't want to put too many lands from main in side just the essential Second maze which is moved from main to side ; depth and vampire.
Not sure of the canonist either ; a one off evoke destroy artifact might be good because of needle but as you have access to vampire I didn't feel it was a must have. What I like about LW is that it is both disruption (vs combo) and tutor(ftw).

[adrieng]

Went 5-0 with the following list beating miracle 2-0, grixis 2-0, infect 2-0, storm 2-1 !, UWRdelver DTT 2-0.

Back to pyroblast LW is too space consumming and doesn't solve omni because the new version can go off even with reclamation sage trigger on the stack. So i prefer having a good side. Pretty common list with some slight changes on the side.
Slaughter games were gamebreaking against miracle like mishra ; trinisphere was great against storm but it was more for omni-show




4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Mana Confluence
2 Maze of Ith
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Expedition Map
4 Crop Rotation
4 Sylvan Scrying

4 Sylvan Library
4 Pithing Needle
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast

SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Golgari Charm
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
1 Marit Lage

[adrieng]

went 3-1 on modo with a different list but unoptimized.
I think right now I would play 6 reb maindeck.
faced poison 0-2 shardless 2-1(lejay), grixis 2-0, omnishow 2-1
I am testing regrowth as a 3 off for reb backup/library backup against miracle and omni which are the tiers.
With these changes the deck has a good miracle/omni matchup.


Here is the list I would have played if I had all the cards :
in modo I played only
-1 maze +1 scrying
-1 reb +1carpet of flower
side -2 trini +2 sphere
-1 deluge +1 charm

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Forest
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe

3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pithing Needle
3 Regrowth
4 Vampire Hexmage

SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

[komondor]

I've been playing this to a 7-1 record except with 4 pyroblast MD. I think I'm going to up to 6 as well. I have also been running 1 bojuka bog main and 1 side because I like having access to 2. so basically this -3 regrowth -1 SDT for +1 bog, +1 thoughtseize, +1 IOK, +1 Slaughtergames.

went 3-1 on modo with a different list but unoptimized.
I think right now I would play 6 reb maindeck.
faced poison 0-2 shardless 2-1(lejay), grixis 2-0, omnishow 2-1
I am testing regrowth as a 3 off for reb backup/library backup against miracle and omni which are the tiers.
With these changes the deck has a good miracle/omni matchup.


Here is the list I would have played if I had all the cards :
in modo I played only
-1 maze +1 scrying
-1 reb +1carpet of flower
side -2 trini +2 sphere
-1 deluge +1 charm

4 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Copperline Gorge
1 Ghost Quarter
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mana Confluence
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Forest
1 Mishra's Factory
2 Maze of Ith
1 Sejiri Steppe

3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Library
4 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Scrying
1 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Pithing Needle
3 Regrowth
4 Vampire Hexmage

SB: 2 Pyroclasm
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 3 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Golgari Charm
SB: 1 Toxic Deluge
SB: 2 Slaughter Games
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Trinisphere
SB: 2 Ratchet Bomb

[Lio]

I've just returned back from small tournament where I play adrieng's version of Depths with minor changes: +1 Thoughseize, -1 Pyroblast and SB:

3x Slaugher Games
3x Pyroclasm
1x Toxic Deluge
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Krosan Grip
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Maze of Ith
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Trinisphere (I would play 2, but didnt get my hands on it)

My matches were as follows:

R1: Jund - 2:1
R2: Miracles - 2:1
R3: Bug Delver: 2:1
R4 - ID
R5: Infect 2:0
Top8: Infect (same player) 2:1 (I would've won 2:0, but made several mistakes in a row and forgot blue infect guy in unblockable..)
Top4: Miracles 1:2

I made several mistakes during the course of tournament due to my inexperience. I haven't played Dark Depths since February, but deck worked as well-oiled machine. I am concerned with Miracles. I have lost both games in top4 to the new tech - Monastery Mentor. I slaughter his Swords to Plowshares away as he has to sideboard Terminus out and leave him without protection against token .. only possibility is Jace and chump-block with Clique... which happened :). Back to Monastery Mentor. He kills fast, reliably and it's difficult to hose. Our only option is Toxic Deluge or RAtchet Bomb. And boarding Toxic Deluge is mostly wasted slot. Do you have any ideas how to deal with it? With Mentor in play, our Mishra's beating plan has serious holes all the sudden. Any ideas?

Overall I am happy with the maindeck (3discard/5 reb split seems working) and I will play this version on Sunday at Prague Eternal.

Edit: how do you change your gameplan if you play against miracles and you you switch to the Misrha's Factory beating? No searching for combo?

[adrieng]

Nice plays !
As for monastery mentor there is always sulfur elemental which adds to the beatdown plan and kills the white token (cutting into deluge/pyroclasme).
Good luck for prague, hope you'll crush them !
I am personnaly concerned about the omni matchup which is very hard to win. I am trying differents brew as you can see in the titania-plug subject, basically a dark depth.deck
with titania and orcish lumberjack. But I am not too sure about it yet, so you'ld better play solid stuff.

As for the beatdown mishra's plan, it really depends of the situation i go for it most of the time unless if I am locked with CB in the case I go all in in the token (game one).
But other way you have to guess whether there is no CB.lock or entreat coming. Most of the games are lost by CB.lock or entreat jace can be handled most of the time (vampire/needle/reb/mishra's beatdown).
The miracle matchup is very hard though and dependant of how you draw that's why I added some reb which are close to always better than discard.