Miracle Control

[mort-]

Venser isn't a spell, its an ability from a permanent. so it should work, iirc.

Correct.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

Do you all realize that, if not countered they win with a single Cunning Wish at that point?

Against Miracle which has no clock at all, do they rush in SnT without Omniscience in hand?

Wear/Tear for W or Reb blasts is as good as that. It stops them from playing sorcery speed things

Moreover, Vendilion Clique played with SnT shuts them off of the Emrakul plan in case thay have both in hand.

Really, I prefer
Canonist
Meddling Mage
Red Blasts
Cliques

all more than Venser in this matchup

Obviously, but Venser lets you hold your counter for the Wish instead of fighting over snt.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

[Poron]

and, with Omniscience they cast it back again cheating 1 more turn.

Venser is good only in Boseiju situation. you bounce SNT to hand, if they play it again then you can counter it.

Anyway, that's the only situation in which I can find it usefull (from turn 6 on then)

[Poron]

Obviously, but Venser lets you hold your counter for the Wish instead of fighting over snt.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

as well as more REBS or Wear/Tear.

which are 1 mana instead of 4

[mort-]

and, with Omniscience they cast it back again cheating 1 more turn.

Venser is good only in Boseiju situation. you bounce SNT to hand, if they play it again then you can counter it.

Anyway, that's the only situation in which I can find it usefull (from turn 6 on then)

Now I'm also thinking you're just a really good troll.

[Poron]

The best plan against them is

Canonist/Meddling Mage
REBs (many, really many. like 4)
Karakas

[Poron]

Now I'm also thinking you're just a really good troll.

there will never be a player idiot enough to play Show and Tell into Emrakul against Miracle.

[stnikolauswagne]

I am now just truly confused what you are even talking about. What are they "casting again"? It's definitely not the omniscience you just bounced and it is not the Show and Tell that is now in the Graveyard. And Karakas as a good answer? What? They will always hardcast Emrakul, so bouncing it is quite useless unless you are in turn 5 of extra turns.

[Poron]

you really have opponents who play SnT to Emrakul against Miracle?

Lol they get exposed to Council and Terminus as well in that case.. it can just happen online against veeery new players.

[mort-]

there will never be a player idiot enough to play Show and Tell into Emrakul against Miracle.

Ok, so in that context:

Karakas is good.

So they cast Emrakul via Omniscience. Get a Time Walk. You bounce with Karakas. They cast Emrakul again, get another Time Walk. Your Karakas is now tapped.

And you asked why Venser is so good in that MU, not if there are better cards. We explained it to you. And you're like "ok but this all sucks, I'd rather play other cards". Well, by all means, play them. But please do not look down on players that have actual experience with the card.
Also, they will obviously try to rush SnT. Because the longer the game goes, the higher the chance that the Miracle pilot will establish a lock of sorts.

[CutthroatCasual]

These past 4 pages have probably lowered my IQ by at least 15 points.

[PhyrexianLibrarian]

Poron I feel like you're seriously misunderstanding what people are saying:

Opponent casts Show & Tell.
They put in either Emrakul or, more likely, Omniscience.
You put in Venser.
Venser's trigger goes on the stack and bounces their Emrakul or Omniscience back to their hand.
If they cheated in an Emrakul, they're back to square one.
If they cheated in an Omniscience, and they Cunning Wish for a Trickbind or something, you counter the Cunning Wish.
If they counter your counter, they had a hand with Show & Tell, Omniscience, Cunning Wish and counter backup, and that is basically the stone nuts for that deck and of course it'll beat you. For all your opponent knows, you have a hand with Venser and 6 counters, and if they lose a counter fight they're done for.

You don't bounce the Show & Tell with Venser, and you certainly don't try to Karakas their Emrakul!

[Poron]

Ok, so in that context:

Karakas is good.

So they cast Emrakul via Omniscience. Get a Time Walk. You bounce with Karakas. They cast Emrakul again, get another Time Walk. Your Karakas is now tapped.

And you asked why Venser is so good in that MU, not if there are better cards. We explained it to you. And you're like "ok but this all sucks, I'd rather play other cards". Well, by all means, play them. But please do not look down on players that have actual experience with the card.
Also, they will obviously try to rush SnT. Because the longer the game goes, the higher the chance that the Miracle pilot will establish a lock of sorts.

If you feel that your opponent will rush to Snt Emakul, the best card around is Containment Priest.

Ok, anyway, thanks for the explanations.

[Poron]

Poron I feel like you're seriously misunderstanding what people are saying:

Opponent casts Show & Tell.
They put in either Emrakul or, more likely, Omniscience.
You put in Venser.
Venser's trigger goes on the stack and bounces their Emrakul or Omniscience back to their hand.
If they cheated in an Emrakul, they're back to square one.
If they cheated in an Omniscience, and they Cunning Wish for a Trickbind or something, you counter the Cunning Wish.
If they counter your counter, they had a hand with Show & Tell, Omniscience, Cunning Wish and counter backup, and that is basically the stone nuts for that deck and of course it'll beat you. For all your opponent knows, you have a hand with Venser and 6 counters, and if they lose a counter fight they're done for.

You don't bounce the Show & Tell with Venser, and you certainly don't try to Karakas their Emrakul!

as I thought, it wasn't clear.

SnT
Omniscience (and whatever from our side)
he retains priority to Emrakul/Cunning Wish

REB/Wear on Omniscience.

Tap Karakas for Emrakul (in case that was their play. Else you just let them resolve and see).

[mort-]

If you feel that your opponent will rush to Snt Emakul, the best card around is Containment Priest.

Ok, anyway, thanks for the explanations.

I never said they rush SnT Emrakul. But they will try to resolve SnT (into Omniscience preferably) as fast as possible.
Also, after boarding, SnT Emrakul is a legit plan because your only out at that point is Venser (which only a small number of decks play), Karakas (slightly larger number of decks) or Jace. So it can pretty much steal a game.

[Poron]

at that point they have to pass and you can Terminus or Council or whatever as well as Karakas (or Venser for those who play it) the Emmy.

the normal "go off" turn is always with a hand like: SnT, Omniscience, counterbackup and 1 DTT/Cunning Wish.

Ethersworn Canonist helps so much against them.

SnT: Omniscience (him), Canonist (you).
turn done for him.
EOT Wear on Omniscience.

all done for W or R for Rebs.

Canonist also makes any storm deck life a hell.

[mort-]

at that point they have to pass and you can Terminus or Council or whatever as well as Karakas (or Venser for those who play it) the Emmy.

the normal "go off" turn is always with a hand like: SnT, Omniscience, counterbackup and 1 DTT/Cunning Wish.

Ethersworn Canonist helps so much against them.

SnT: Omniscience (him), Canonist (you).
turn done for him.
EOT Wear on Omniscience.

all done for W or R for Rebs.

Canonist also makes any storm deck life a hell.

Care to explain why you would have Terminus in your deck after boarding?

[Poron]

Because something can go wrong and it might be needed.

Because many, nowadays are UR Omnitell who hide the red the first match because they are sure that we will side out Terminus and they play Young Pyromancer G2.

My G2

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Jace
-1 Plains
-1 something
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Containment Priest
+2 REBs (for a total of 4)
+1 Karakas
+1 Enlightned Tutor

[mort-]

Because something can go wrong and it might be needed.

Because many, nowadays are UR Omnitell who hide the red the first match because they are sure that we will side out Terminus and they play Young Pyromancer G2.

My G2

-4 Swords to Plowshares
-2 Jace
-1 Plains
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Containment Priest
+2 REBs (for a total of 4)
+1 Karakas

You have Explosives and/or Staticaster and/or Pyroclasm for that. Terminus is _the worst_ card in that MU. Also, Containment Priest sucks in that MU.

[Poron]

my list is creatures heavy. I don't play Pyroclasm.

EE doesn't kill YP

Also, if something goes wrong, Pyroclasm doesn't help with Emrkul Terminus does