[Deck] Death and Taxes

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Yup, there's been a lot of interest in Teeg and Pridemage over on MTGS. Sylvan Library is always great too, especially with Stoneforge and a couple of fetches to shuffle.

Just want to say, the water's nice over there regarding the green splash. I had called for Teeg after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time came out, and I think we can safely say DtT has staying power after TC's ban. That kind of advantage is what you get blown out by, or lose a game you had within grasp, something the Wg build aims to stop.

I think it's better than mono white in general. But it's slightly worse against delver and significantly worse in the mirror ... Mono white also doesn't stand a chance against a good UWR stoneblade player, with Wr I've beaten it countless times.

This is pretty much my assessment too, inserting "Wg" in place of "Wr". Stoneblade folds to Moon effects, and I'm taking them on with Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Sylvan Library and Choke. Stoneblade will just beat mono-DnT now more often than not with True-Name Nemesis and Dig Through Time to contend with; one of those cards may be fine for mono, but both is just trouble.

So we're approaching it with the opposite opponents of blue: red and green. I think it's safe to say black and blue are inferior choices for a splash far as the weaknesses of mono and what a splash color intends to correct.

Btw Wg is nasty good against the mirror. Recruiter and Moon, I can see why they don't jive as much when someone is playing mono-white tempo back at you, but while Teeg is dead in the mirror, Pridemage and Sylvan are usually game deciders. I can tell you with many games of Wg under my belt now that the only real weakness for Wg is hardcore BUG control with maindeck Toxic Deluge, which mono would lose to as well. I assume Wr has some fun here with the Moon effects.

Mono, I fear, lacks oomph against Stoneblade, OmniTell, and to a lesser extent, Miracles, which are all big deals now. Elves is less popular, but green takes the cake there (red also does quite well I'm sure). Green definitely pads the % points against other combo that mono-DnT isn't necessarily lacking against like Dredge, Sneak Show, and ANT, but better is better. I'm more than willing to concede a few % points to one of the best matchups in RUG Delver for all those other advantages.

[Bahra]

Just want to say, the water's nice over there regarding the green splash. I had called for Teeg after Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time came out, and I think we can safely say DtT has staying power after TC's ban. That kind of advantage is what you get blown out by, or lose a game you had within grasp, something the Wg build aims to stop.


This is pretty much my assessment too, inserting "Wg" in place of "Wr". Stoneblade folds to Moon effects, and I'm taking them on with Gaddock Teeg, Qasali Pridemage, Sylvan Library and Choke. Stoneblade will just beat mono-DnT now more often than not with True-Name Nemesis and Dig Through Time to contend with; one of those cards may be fine for mono, but both is just trouble.

So we're approaching it with the opposite opponents of blue: red and green. I think it's safe to say black and blue are inferior choices for a splash far as the weaknesses of mono and what a splash color intends to correct.

Btw Wg is nasty good against the mirror. Recruiter and Moon, I can see why they don't jive as much when someone is playing mono-white tempo back at you, but while Teeg is dead in the mirror, Pridemage and Sylvan are usually game deciders. I can tell you with many games of Wg under my belt now that the only real weakness for Wg is hardcore BUG control with maindeck Toxic Deluge, which mono would lose to as well. I assume Wr has some fun here with the Moon effects.

Mono, I fear, lacks oomph against Stoneblade, OmniTell, and to a lesser extent, Miracles, which are all big deals now. Elves is less popular, but green takes the cake there (red also does quite well I'm sure). Green definitely pads the % points against other combo that mono-DnT isn't necessarily lacking against like Dredge, Sneak Show, and ANT, but better is better. I'm more than willing to concede a few % points to one of the best matchups in RUG Delver for all those other advantages.

Did the Wg list win anything? I mean, is there a solid list? I want to try it out in a daily.

[Barook]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter*
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

[Tylert]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter*
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

you already know the answer :) SMF is better because it does not require Vial and mother of runes to be sure to get card advantage. Also, it can put the equipement into play, avoiding counterspells.
I like the card, but not for D&T (nor legacy in general).
And do we really want 6 stoneforge mystic in the deck?

[Mackan]

Just some thoughts regarding the green splash...

If you are to play green to have access to Gaddock to beat decks with DTT I have some cards which you could also consider.

1) Winter Orb. In a low-curved deck with Aether Vial this is an awesome tool to take advantage of ppl running tops and cantrips to filter their draws.
2) Carpet of flowers. In combination with the above to more or less get a one-sided effect out of the orb.
3) Sword of feast and famine. Maybe this is win-more but the untap-effect is actually pretty good if you can't use your mana otherwise.

Thoughts?

[Finn]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter*
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

I have a thought on Relic Hunter. I think we can all agree that it is not as good at fetching equipment as Mystic. I think that this is a different card though. It hits once and then it is a 3/3 - one of the bigger dudes in the deck. The opponent has to block it. D+T does not have much in that realm at the moment. Mom can of course help out plenty by deploying the equipment he fetches. I think this guy works along side Mystic too.

I think the card is not as powerful as Mystic. It's just that D+T has the foundation to make him work well.

[Curby]

Just some thoughts regarding the green splash...

If you are to play green to have access to Gaddock to beat decks with DTT I have some cards which you could also consider.

1) Winter Orb. In a low-curved deck with Aether Vial this is an awesome tool to take advantage of ppl running tops and cantrips to filter their draws.
2) Carpet of flowers. In combination with the above to more or less get a one-sided effect out of the orb.
3) Sword of feast and famine. Maybe this is win-more but the untap-effect is actually pretty good if you can't use your mana otherwise.

Thoughts?

My sig. Where do you find the room? Splash lists are really tight, and we're already cutting staples like beef (Brimaz/Crusader/Avenger) and tricks (Flickerwisp/Mangara/Revoker) to fit the off-color cards. More specifically:

Worb effectively invalidates Port, a key part of our tax strategy.

Carpet of Flowers could only be in the side due to matchup requirements. I'd rather run Choke, and my sig prevents us from running both.

[Barook]

I have a thought on Relic Hunter. I think we can all agree that it is not as good at fetching equipment as Mystic. I think that this is a different card though. It hits once and then it is a 3/3 - one of the bigger dudes in the deck. The opponent has to block it. D+T does not have much in that realm at the moment. Mom can of course help out plenty by deploying the equipment he fetches. I think this guy works along side Mystic too.

I think the card is not as powerful as Mystic. It's just that D+T has the foundation to make him work well.

Assuming we play it on T2, we can clear the way with a StP on T3 and then play the fetched Jitte, or clear the way with a Flickerwisp. Both aren't unrealistic scenarios.

It might have potential in the MonoW list, but I would wait for testing results first since it doesn't make sense to look at it in a vacuum. For Imperial Taxes, Recruiter should be better as CA engine since it can also grab SFM.

[dcosiem]

I haven't been on the forums in a long time. I hear some chit chat about splashing colors. If people really want to splash colors in this deck try making a new threat and leave the talk out cause its pointless to talk about it here. On second note, congrats to Evan Smith on the 2nd place finish in Indy. I really love his deck. It's almost similar to mine but mine is probably better. I would definitely run Absolute Law over Circle Protection from Red because Circle of Protection from Red doesn't guarantee you a win. I've lost against burn with it on the field because simply he had more spells to play and it constricted me of resources to play my own spells. Dnt is such a limited mana source deck. I may want to run 24 lands some time. Aven Mindscensor so good right now. I can see the Armageddon for Lands but I rather run the 2 of Cataclysm and a playset of Flagstone in the main to thin out my deck on draws instead. But, I suppose it Armageddon works. Good job though. Has anyone thought of running Cursed Totem in the side against Elves? That's what I'm doing.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Did the Wg list win anything? I mean, is there a solid list? I want to try it out in a daily.

Unfortunately for everyone in the Southwest, SCG has abandoned the Legacy scene here, so what we get are smaller tourneys, though I will be taking Wg to GP Seattle. In the meantime, I took 2nd of 37 at a SCG IQ in March with a less refined version of the deck here.

Last week I placed 8th with a way better build at a 42 man tourney at Knight-Ware. Results from those usually get posted to The Council and MTGTop8.com, but this one hasn't yet, so here's the list directly from the store site.

The second list is much much better than the first. I was knocked out of the playoffs by Merfolk, which is somehow like my one nemesis deck even though most other DnT players agree it's pretty even matched to favored. I just always get hit with 2-3 TNNs per game, just my luck.

[Bahra]

I just swapped the plateaus for savannahs and the magus of the moon with Qasali Pridemage, the Imperial Recruiters with Gaddock Teeg, the Sudden Demise with Chokes and the Leonin Relic-Warder with Sylvan Libary.

I 3-1'd the daily losing to Omniscience in 3 games where I feel like I got pretty lucky throughout the match and I still lost. Beat Esper Deathblade, ANT and Manaless dredge.

Even though I've only played 4 matches the deck seems powerful, I am just worried that it doesn't fix the match ups I was trying to fix with the red splash, namely infect and Elves.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

I just swapped the plateaus for savannahs and the magus of the moon with Qasali Pridemage, the Imperial Recruiters with Gaddock Teeg, the Sudden Demise with Chokes and the Leonin Relic-Warder with Sylvan Libary.

I 3-1'd the daily losing to Omniscience in 3 games where I feel like I got pretty lucky throughout the match and I still lost. Beat Esper Deathblade, ANT and Manaless dredge.

Even though I've only played 4 matches the deck seems powerful, I am just worried that it doesn't fix the match ups I was trying to fix with the red splash, namely infect and Elves.

I mostly have a field day with Elves now. Short of the Turn 2 Heritage Druid Glimpse win, Teeg+Priest and Canonist+Spirit are slowing them down mightily.

I'm sure Sudden Demise is great vs. Infect, which can be tricky but is not a "problem" matchup for even mono-DnT imo. Pridemage kills Inkmoth Nexus, remember, and we can block Glistener Elf. Just leaves dealing with Blighted Agent.

[Stevestamopz]

Thoughts on this new card?

Relic Hunter*
Creature - Human Soldier
Fame 1 (Whenever this creature deals combat damage to a player, if this creature is not famous, put a +1/+1 counter on it becomes famous)
When Relic Hunter* becomes famous, you may search your library for an Equipment card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.
2/2

Lack of evasion sucks. Mom and EoT Vial @2 might help to some degree. It can also benefit from a Cavern set to Humans.

Might be interesting to test as a 1-2 copies past the 4 SFM we already run, but I wouldn't be suprised if they sucked.

Obviously it's not close to SFM (it's pretty much Dark Confidant vs Pain Seer) but being a human is pretty nice.
Something to test, but I wouldn't get my hopes up for this one.

[Bahra]

I mostly have a field day with Elves now. Short of the Turn 2 Heritage Druid Glimpse win, Teeg+Priest and Canonist+Spirit are slowing them down mightily.

I'm sure Sudden Demise is great vs. Infect, which can be tricky but is not a "problem" matchup for even mono-DnT imo. Pridemage kills Inkmoth Nexus, remember, and we can block Glistener Elf. Just leaves dealing with Blighted Agent.

Actually Infect is a problem match up for mono white. We're too slow and they have enough tricks that we're often dead to either of their threats. I'm not gonna go into a deep discussion about why infect is a bad match up for mono white. But if you're not having problems with infect I assure you it's because the infect players you are facing are bad. Simple as that.

[frenadol]

I just swapped the plateaus for savannahs and the magus of the moon with Qasali Pridemage, the Imperial Recruiters with Gaddock Teeg, the Sudden Demise with Chokes and the Leonin Relic-Warder with Sylvan Libary.

I 3-1'd the daily losing to Omniscience in 3 games where I feel like I got pretty lucky throughout the match and I still lost. Beat Esper Deathblade, ANT and Manaless dredge.

Even though I've only played 4 matches the deck seems powerful, I am just worried that it doesn't fix the match ups I was trying to fix with the red splash, namely infect and Elves.

I've been playing the green splash for a while, with a couple tweaks and stuff. The green version is significantly better against decks like Patriot, Esper, RUG, Miracles, etc, blue based decks that rely on board pressure or control. It enhances your even or slightly favorable matchups while not really sacrificing any matchup other than maybe Burn. GW also destroys the mirror because you have access to maindeck artifact removal and heavier hitting creatures, while AFAIK the red version is weaker. With GW I recommend you go 4 Serra Avenger and cut the number of Flickerwisp since you rely more on a stable clock and not soft locks. I also cut the Revokers altogether and replaced them with 4 Pridemage (keeping a sideboard Needle), and it has served me well, you may try it and see if you like it that way. Exalted is a really good mechanic in this deck and the cats are much more resilient, plus still very useful against Delver decks. Pridemage also can destroy Omniscience, where Revoker would just sit there doing nothing because the time for Sneak Show has passed. BUG in particular brings in a ton of artifacts post board, like Needle and Null Rod. Library is also maindeckable as a one-of, and I'm always happy to see it.

I think we don't see many people taking Wg to tournaments because of a feedback loop of "Wg doesn't have tournament results so I don't want to risk it in a real tournament so I'll just bring monowhite" but I'm pretty sure in the current meta Wg is truly much more powerful than monowhite. Unless you lose your first two rounds and get in the loser bracket elohell of $100 burn decks and that guy who still plays Oops, all spells.

If cheese is your thing (I do certainly like it!) green also has Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. It autowins you the game if he survives for more than a turn, which is pretty doable if you have a Mom in play. He's also legendary and at 2G very easy to cast and pretty hard to kill at 2/3. I also did a pretty detailed explanation of the diverse stuff you can do with the Wg version of DnT over at MTGS a while ago, including Yisan shenanigans. If you want decklists, of whatever type, I believe I can at least point you in the right direction.

[Bahra]

I've been playing the green splash for a while, with a couple tweaks and stuff. The green version is significantly better against decks like Patriot, Esper, RUG, Miracles, etc, blue based decks that rely on board pressure or control. It enhances your even or slightly favorable matchups while not really sacrificing any matchup other than maybe Burn. GW also destroys the mirror because you have access to maindeck artifact removal and heavier hitting creatures, while AFAIK the red version is weaker. With GW I recommend you go 4 Serra Avenger and cut the number of Flickerwisp since you rely more on a stable clock and not soft locks. I also cut the Revokers altogether and replaced them with 4 Pridemage (keeping a sideboard Needle), and it has served me well, you may try it and see if you like it that way. Exalted is a really good mechanic in this deck and the cats are much more resilient, plus still very useful against Delver decks. Pridemage also can destroy Omniscience, where Revoker would just sit there doing nothing because the time for Sneak Show has passed. BUG in particular brings in a ton of artifacts post board, like Needle and Null Rod. Library is also maindeckable as a one-of, and I'm always happy to see it.

I think we don't see many people taking Wg to tournaments because of a feedback loop of "Wg doesn't have tournament results so I don't want to risk it in a real tournament so I'll just bring monowhite" but I'm pretty sure in the current meta Wg is truly much more powerful than monowhite. Unless you lose your first two rounds and get in the loser bracket elohell of $100 burn decks and that guy who still plays Oops, all spells.

If cheese is your thing (I do certainly like it!) green also has Yisan, the Wanderer Bard. It autowins you the game if he survives for more than a turn, which is pretty doable if you have a Mom in play. He's also legendary and at 2G very easy to cast and pretty hard to kill at 2/3. I also did a pretty detailed explanation of the diverse stuff you can do with the Wg version of DnT over at MTGS a while ago, including Yisan shenanigans. If you want decklists, of whatever type, I believe I can at least point you in the right direction.

I don't like cutting the Revokers, they still do a lot against a lot of decks, and they are awesome in the mirror. 4x Pridemage seems like a lot. I played the legacy event on Sunday at GP Copenhagen and there was a ton of elves, and if that's in anyway indicative of the GP Lille meta, then I want to play the red splash. I agree that Wg is better than mono white, and I will add that I also believe that Wr is better than mono white. So I'm definitely playing a splash at GP Lille and almost certainly Wr since I believe in making most match ups even if not favoured, rather than play blow out match ups every round.

[MGB]

If you're playing the green splash, could you just go ahead and play some Collected Company perhaps?

[Curby]

If you're playing the green splash, could you just go ahead and play some Collected Company perhaps?

Costs 5 with Thalia, unplayable with Teeg. Sylvan Library is a much better card advantage engine for the deck.

[haymaker18]

I don't like cutting the Revokers, they still do a lot against a lot of decks, and they are awesome in the mirror. 4x Pridemage seems like a lot. I played the legacy event on Sunday at GP Copenhagen and there was a ton of elves, and if that's in anyway indicative of the GP Lille meta, then I want to play the red splash. I agree that Wg is better than mono white, and I will add that I also believe that Wr is better than mono white. So I'm definitely playing a splash at GP Lille and almost certainly Wr since I believe in making most match ups even if not favoured, rather than play blow out match ups every round.

Is there any way to keep the red splash but add 1-2 Teeg in the 75 (possibly a Pridemage)? Maybe 1 Savannah (main or board)? Can search for both creatures with Recruiter and you have Vial to put into play if finding green mana is hard. Maybe an extra green mana in board and a Sylvan Library. Don't think you really need Choke, but you could play 1 in board. There are matchups where you can't get Magus out of your deck and into your board quickly enough. Bringing Teeg in seems like it may help in some of those matchups.

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[Nihils]

Is there any way to keep the red splash but add 1-2 Teeg in the 75 (possibly a Pridemage)? Maybe 1 Savannah (main or board)? Can search for both creatures with Recruiter and you have Vial to put into play if finding green mana is hard. Maybe an extra green mana in board and a Sylvan Library. Don't think you really need Choke, but you could play 1 in board. There are matchups where you can't get Magus out of your deck and into your board quickly enough. Bringing Teeg in seems like it may help in some of those matchups.

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Not a great interaction, but it is notable that Imperial Recruiter and Teeg are both Advisors for Cavern.