[Deck] U/R Delver

[Richard Cheese]

I don't. I really don't like playing situational cards. Exception made for price of progress of course.

But being burn, isn't Fireblast kinda less situational than Vapor Snag?

[Andrew.Schneider]

But being burn, isn't Fireblast kinda less situational than Vapor Snag?

I'm confused. I want vapor snag in my sideboard for the situational purpose of bouncing a 20/20. I thought he was stating he wanted Fireblast in the main deck and accidentally quoted the last person's post. If you meant you wanted Fireblast in the sideboard, well sure. It is nice to have burn to bring in over the counters, but if that is the case I'd rather have spike.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm confused. I want vapor snag in my sideboard for the situational purpose of bouncing a 20/20. I thought he was stating he wanted Fireblast in the main deck and accidentally quoted the last person's post. If you meant you wanted Fireblast in the sideboard, well sure. It is nice to have burn to bring in over the counters, but if that is the case I'd rather have spike.

Nope, I missed that you were talking about Snag in the board. My bad!

[now]

4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills

Why do you still run 18 lands? Seeing as how the Treasure Cruise build got away with 17, then 16, then (in some cases) 15 lands, is it really necessary to play 18? I realize that Wasteland is much more prominent again, but it seems that one or perhaps even two lands could be cut for those last one or two Ponders.

[ThiefSlayer]

Thanks! Let me start off by saying I took a bit of a magic break during Treasure Cruise legacy (not because of Treasure Cruise or anything, my life just got much busier) so you all have way more time in with the deck than I do.

Board centered approach: I honestly don't think this is much more "board centered" than the list I used to play. Basically I just cut the 3rd Ponder, the 4th Goblin Guide, and the main deck Lavamancers from my old list to make room for the 4 swiftspears. I think this change really helps the consistency.

Assuming you meant Dig Through Time for the 2nd question: I really don't think my version needs/wants dig through time. All of the cards do essentially the same thing right (except for the awful counterspells)? I'm not really sure what I'm in the market to tutor for. Especially at the cost of having a card in my hand that I can't cast for a good part of the game. It feels very wrong to me.

Ponder: Cutting ponder doesn't feel good and I don't have a good response. Ponder is one of the best cards in the deck past turn 1 and I'm sure I'll start to notice the shave at some point. That said, I think I'd rather have the consistency of having a one drop over having the 3rd/4th ponder, but its tough.

Eidolon: I didn't test it or anything. It just seemed good against Elves and Storm. Those are both decks that I've played against a ton at previous invitationals. Not that I thought those matchups needed help I just had 2 slots available. I do think I'll want something like Vapor Snag in the future. I can't think of anything more versatile that can handle a 20/20.

Artifact Removal: Its all because of the UWR stoneforge/spell pierce deck. I would love to play Smash, but as long as that deck is around I am going to be playing smelt. It does make you WAY worse against chalice, but that's a gamble I'm ok with making. I would never call it wrong for someone to play smash instead.

Surgical: I think the only non graveyard deck I bring it in against is High Tide. If you can surgical their hightides before they timespiral you're in a really good spot.

Lavamancer: It depends on the matchup. First out always are the 6 counterspells. Then probably a guide or 2 depending.

Noxious Revival: Haha, I have not thought about that card before. It seems a little like a 5th snapcaster right...only way way worse :)

I'm glad you gave a thought about my post! About the questions:

I know probe is really good, giving you info, draw and the possibility of getting CA with SCM for 2 mana, but I wouldn't play with less than 4 ponders, it helps you so much with good draws along the game (in tournaments people always thought I was lucky about my draws, but with so much redundancy and cantrips on this deck, the topdeck feels really nice), lowers your mulligan count, etc. If you had to cut something for the extra 2 ponders, what would you cut? I think 2 probes is a good ammount as you already have 8 cantrips on the MD.

Eidolon: It would be really good against those matchups, I guess I will give it a try in some trainings, it seems to be really risky but with potential to be amazing.

Noxious revival is just a fun idea, it's good against some grave decks, may work well bringing back snapcaster for value or even giving a dead draw or responding to counterbalance trigger. Still, I don't hope it to be a thing, may be fun in a 4fun deck but doesn't seem to be in competitive legacy level.

PS.: The ones I didn't respond, I either agree or fully understood your point. Thank you for your patience!

Why do you still run 18 lands? Seeing as how the Treasure Cruise build got away with 17, then 16, then (in some cases) 15 lands, is it really necessary to play 18? I realize that Wasteland is much more prominent again, but it seems that one or perhaps even two lands could be cut for those last one or two Ponders.

The TC build ran 16 cantrips, with 4 ponders among them (finding lands in the beggining if needed) and 4 TC (drawing 3 cards, big odds of drawing lands). This list also runs 4 snapcaster, which is 2-4 CMC (from probe to price of progress), in a meta with some ammount of wasteland it's really risky to run fewer than 18 lands.

I tried to run the deck with 16 or 17 lands, but 18 seems to be the perfect ammount as you really don't want to be low on resources in the beginning of the game.

Just remembering, the Treasure cruise played a very different game than UR Burn Delver (which is the name I think describes this deck the best).

[Andrew.Schneider]

I'm glad you gave a thought about my post! About the questions:

I know probe is really good, giving you info, draw and the possibility of getting CA with SCM for 2 mana, but I wouldn't play with less than 4 ponders, it helps you so much with good draws along the game (in tournaments people always thought I was lucky about my draws, but with so much redundancy and cantrips on this deck, the topdeck feels really nice), lowers your mulligan count, etc. If you had to cut something for the extra 2 ponders, what would you cut? I think 2 probes is a good ammount as you already have 8 cantrips on the MD.

Eidolon: It would be really good against those matchups, I guess I will give it a try in some trainings, it seems to be really risky but with potential to be amazing.

Noxious revival is just a fun idea, it's good against some grave decks, may work well bringing back snapcaster for value or even giving a dead draw or responding to counterbalance trigger. Still, I don't hope it to be a thing, may be fun in a 4fun deck but doesn't seem to be in competitive legacy level.

PS.: The ones I didn't respond, I either agree or fully understood your point. Thank you for your patience!



The TC build ran 16 cantrips, with 4 ponders among them (finding lands in the beggining if needed) and 4 TC (drawing 3 cards, big odds of drawing lands). This list also runs 4 snapcaster, which is 2-4 CMC (from probe to price of progress), in a meta with some ammount of wasteland it's really risky to run fewer than 18 lands.

I tried to run the deck with 16 or 17 lands, but 18 seems to be the perfect ammount as you really don't want to be low on resources in the beginning of the game.

Just remembering, the Treasure cruise played a very different game than UR Burn Delver (which is the name I think describes this deck the best).

Your points on Ponder are very valid. I don't like shaving it but I don't know where to fit them in. I really like the 4 probes. I'll probably stick with the configuration I have for now, but its hard to argue against someone going up to 4 Ponder.

And I agree with your points on the land count. Honestly, I played 19/20 lands for a long time. 18 seems low to me!

[ThiefSlayer]

Hey guys, I've played in a state legacy championship here in Brazil yesterday with about 28 players. I won't make a detailed report since my memory is very bad for it, but I would like to make some considerations. Here is the list:

Cantrips (10)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

Creatures (14)

1 Goblin guide
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage

Counters (6)

3 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce

Burn (12)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
3 Price of Progress
1 Forked Bolt

Lands (18)

3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard (15)

2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Divert
2 Searing Blaze
2 Pithing Needle
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will

I felt swiftspear was kinda awkward sometimes. Guide is more constant, as we don't want to be playing a lot of spells during our turn, before attacks. Hit "downside" helped a lot of times for knowing what the opponent was up to. Also, I'm not sure if I want the 5 copies of them in the board. That, allied with the fact that lavamancer overperformed, made me think I'd like to play at least 2 copies of lavamancer on the MB and 1 on the SB against delver and small creatures decks.

I felt like playing the 3/1 POP splash between MB and SB, but then I realized it's a very dead card until the opponent lands at least 3 nonbasic lands. It's very powerful, but it's the kind of card we want to be drawing during the game, in the initial hand it's really not good. I think I'll make a 2/1 splash from now on.

Spell pierce felt really good, specially against combo decks where we would like to flash it back with snapcaster. Still, I think daze is really that good in the first turns of the game, I'm leaning towards running daze along spell pierce. Also, I'm really thinking about leaving FoW in the SB only against combo matchups. It's more of a meta call, it's really low on combo decks lately, and I think it will be for a while. Maybe 4 daze and 3 spell pierces are enough to hold them back a little, and are also good for not getting outsourced against other aggro matchups.

Divert and searing blaze didn't sound great. Having to have 2 open red mana AND the landdrop to play searing blaze effectively really made it sound like a situational card. Divert sounds good in theory, but there are just too many scenarios where it's not good at all, even against matchups where it was supposed to be good.

I'm thinking about changing my list to something like this:

Cantrips (10)

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe

Creatures (14)

1 Goblin Guide
+3 Goblin Guide
+1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Grim Lavamancer
-4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage

Counters (6)

-3 Force of Will
+4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce

Burn (12)

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Price of Progress
-1 Price of Progress
1 Forked Bolt

Lands (18)

3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire

Sideboard (15)

2 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
-2 Divert
-2 Searing Blaze
2 Pithing Needle
1 Price of Progress
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Smash to Smithereens
+1 Smash to Smithereens
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Force of Will
+3 Force of Will

Again, the FoW exchanges are really a meta call. There are just too many matchups where the card disadvantage is pretty bad, and also the blue cards are the best in this deck, I don't feel really well by removing some of it to pitch for FoW.

[GoblinZ]

I wonder why this thread has been so silent for quite a while？

ALso startled by the fact that there is no one in source shows any interest in Grixis delver, which is essentially ur delver splashing black.

[Tokugawa]

I wonder why this thread has been so silent for quite a while？

ALso startled by the fact that there is no one in source shows any interest in Grixis delver, which is essentially ur delver splashing black.

Grixis burn had some good results in recent months. It saids that Grixis is popular in Japan and becoming a dtb contester. And it has actually no primer on source…

[redesign1991]

Grixis burn had some good results in recent months. It saids that Grixis is popular in Japan and becoming a dtb contester. And it has actually no primer on source…

I too was surprised to see that there was no primer available or to find out more about it in this thread.

[ThiefSlayer]

Yeah, tbh I thought the same from the beginning, I don't think this topic should be so quiet, but I guess people can get a good basis from discussions made before in here. I mean, UR Delver isn't that complex.

About the list I posted before (UR Delver Burn, not the Pyro version), the only thing I can say is that you really don't want 4 snapcasters if you don't have FoW in the MD. Also, with FoW being cut from the MB, you sometimes can't stay ahead in the beginning of the game, and the card disadvantage it causes can be compensated with snapcaster's card advantage. I'm going back to 3/4 snap + 3/4 FoW in the MD, I'm just not sure about how to fit it back in the deck.

Lavamancer is great, but I guess my list sacrificed combo matchups by sneaking in 2 lavamancers and changing fow for spell pierce/daze in the main. I think that going back to 3 or 4 FoW in the MB, lavamancer isn't that big of a deal against combo matchups.

Btw, is someone here having results with the UR Delver Burn list? I'd like to know, since I'm on TES for a while, but may come back later to UR Delver.

[JDK]

UR Delver Burn? You mean the traditional (pre-TC) lists, right?

I was never a fan of the TC-lists and I am not a fan of the DTT-builds (yes, Grixis is basically UR Delver with DTT and Therapy - maybe a Tasigur here and there) either. I had a quite successful run with my GG + SCM builds (cashing in - iirc - every tournament in 2014), but for the Austrian Legacy Championship (3rd place) at the end of last year I decided to try a different apporach with less aggressive, more robust und disruptive elements. The list should be here somewhere (German report can be found here). I've tried it in a couple of FNMs since then with a pretty good winrate.

[ThiefSlayer]

UR Delver Burn? You mean the traditional (pre-TC) lists, right?

I was never a fan of the TC-lists and I am not a fan of the DTT-builds (yes, Grixis is basically UR Delver with DTT and Therapy - maybe a Tasigur here and there) either. I had a quite successful run with my GG + SCM builds (cashing in - iirc - every tournament in 2014), but for the Austrian Legacy Championship (3rd place) at the end of last year I decided to try a different apporach with less aggressive, more robust und disruptive elements. The list should be here somewhere (German report can be found here). I've tried it in a couple of FNMs since then with a pretty good winrate.

Yeah, that's how I use to call the traditional list. About your approach, I use to think less aggressive UR Delver decks have a different way to play the game, aren't other delver decks like UWr/BUG better at playing a less aggressive list? That's really my thoughts, though you seem to have had quite a good result with this one.

This is your list, right?

Lands (19)

4 Scalding Tarn
2 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Mountain

Sorceries (7)

3 Ponder
3 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt

Instants (20)

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Price of Progress

Creatures (14)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer

Sideboard (15)

3 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Vapor Snag
3 Pyroblast
2 Flusterstorm
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Price of Progress
1 Pithing Needle

As you have a lot of response to a lot of things, isn't gitaxian probe something to aim for? I mean, you get valuable info for 2 life, flips delver, can make snapcaster have some value by casting for 2 mana. I'd cut 1-of somethings to fit in at least 2/3 gitaxian probes. Also, as your deck plays slower, wouldn't DTT be a good addition to your deck? Not more than 2 of, but I think as a 1-of it sounds quite interesting.

[JDK]

I don't think probe is as good in this slower list, as your life points become more relevant and you don't need to go all in. You also want more removal/burn than just 4 bolts, but I could definitely see me cutting some Chain Lightnings, depending on the meta (iirc I was playing more Forked Bolts the last time). If I'd need any more slots the Dazes would probably be next in line. I'm not a fan of delve in a deck with SCM und Lavamancer though.

[meffeo]

I too was surprised to see that there was no primer available or to find out more about it in this thread.

Actually, there's a Grixis' thread in the New and Developmental Decks section. There you are: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...ontrol-Thieves

[JPoJohnson]

That's Grixis control, not Grixis delver. Two very different decks with different play styles.

[rhames]

Hey guys!

Some thoughts on my decklist will be appreciated. The thing is, that my deck is more control than tempo deck, some would say its monoblue control splashing red for bolts...

so here is the list


3x volcanic island
1x tundra ( for sideboard purposes)
4x wasteland
4x scalding tarn
7x other fetches

4x delver
3x grim lavamancer
4x true-name nemesis
1x clique

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x daze
4x fow
4x stifle
4x lightning bolt
3x spell pierce
1x fire/ice

1x jace

Sideboard:

as i said.. i am splashing white mana to be able to get some more of my sideboard... current state includes 2 meddling mages

.. also I am running vapor snag over submerge... but thinking about using chain of vapor over vapor snag

other sb consist of classic ur sb cards

Record I am having with this decks - well .. it depends... its really good against other delver decks, good against combo and creature decks.

Suggestions - thinking about playing maindeck blood moons - over jace and other fillings.

I am preparing myself for legacy GP taking place in Lille, France .. so I want my deck really to be as tuned as possible.

Thank you guys on your thoughts.

R.

[Sunday Funday]

Hey guys!

Some thoughts on my decklist will be appreciated. The thing is, that my deck is more control than tempo deck, some would say its monoblue control splashing red for bolts...

so here is the list


3x volcanic island
1x tundra ( for sideboard purposes)
4x wasteland
4x scalding tarn
7x other fetches

4x delver
3x grim lavamancer
4x true-name nemesis
1x clique

4x brainstorm
4x ponder
4x daze
4x fow
4x stifle
4x lightning bolt
3x spell pierce
1x fire/ice

1x jace

Sideboard:

as i said.. i am splashing white mana to be able to get some more of my sideboard... current state includes 2 meddling mages

.. also I am running vapor snag over submerge... but thinking about using chain of vapor over vapor snag

other sb consist of classic ur sb cards

Record I am having with this decks - well .. it depends... its really good against other delver decks, good against combo and creature decks.

Suggestions - thinking about playing maindeck blood moons - over jace and other fillings.

I am preparing myself for legacy GP taking place in Lille, France .. so I want my deck really to be as tuned as possible.

Thank you guys on your thoughts.

R.

Don't think you need 4 TNN as they can get clunky at 3 cmc. I played a similar deck before with 3 TNNs and it got very clunky as I was seeing it a lot in the early games through brainstorm and ponder. From my personal experience, TNN is a rather slow finisher with no equipment. You might want also cut down on grim lavamancers and add DTT. Since all your creatures are not too resilient, I would highly recommend young pyromancer and maybe even a few probes. I would also replace a fetch or two with a basic island. Also depending what your SB looks like, there may be further changes.

[now]

Has anyone tried a list with 4 Eidolon of the Great Revel over 4 Snapcaster Mage? One running it took second place at an SCG Super IQ, which isn’t saying much, but it’s a card that pressures most decks rather hard while they’re being beaten down by Goblin Guides and Monastery Swiftspears. (I’d rather run Goblin Guide than Young Pyromancer.)

[pateuglow]

Has anyone tried a list with 4 Eidolon of the Great Revel over 4 Snapcaster Mage? One running it took second place at an SCG Super IQ, which isn’t saying much, but it’s a card that pressures most decks rather hard while they’re being beaten down by Goblin Guides and Monastery Swiftspears. (I’d rather run Goblin Guide than Young Pyromancer.)

I just recently started running UR Delver (maybe 2 months) but Goblin Guide was a choice that I was considering over Young Pyromancer - although the resiliency of YP is good, I think I like the aggro of GG