I'm curious as to what you're losing against. I don't really see how losing to Elves even half the time is possible with the config green gets you. They are forced to go aggro, which more often than not, sucks for that deck. I'd like to take on some Infect pro to see what trouble besets the DnT player like you've mentioned. I can't get behind the fact that every Infect player I've beaten is, in fact, bad. The matchup is a challenge, but I never feel straight overwhelmed.Originally Posted by Bahra
You obviously know how to pilot DnT, but damn, I've never not come away with a winning record with Wg. I have to assume something went horrible awry.
Isn't this white and green deck you guys are talking about called Maverick?
Maverick is based around GSZ and mana dorks, while Wg Taxes uses Port and Vial, among other things.
Ah ok I'm sorry. I've been out of Magic for about a year or so. Has the mono white version of this deck been performing poorly lately? Is that why there is so much talk of splashing red and green?
No, it isn't. It started literally as a splash, primarily for 1-2 Gaddock Teeg, but now the builds typically use 1-2 Qasali Pridemage in place of 1-2 Phyrexian Revoker thanks to OmniTell and maybe a 1-of Sylvan Library in the absence of something nifty like Recruiter. The sideboard uses a couple Choke, but nothing else G. That is a long way from Maverick and, despite predictions with the original build, which was a response to the introduction of Dig Through Time and Treasure Cruise, it hasn't inevitably led to Maverick.
Is it better than Imperial Taxes? Aside from what has been said about specific match-ups, which is what we have to reckon, probably not. Turning your opponent's mana into Mountains only is pretty awesome. So is tutoring the right thing at the right time. Mana denial + tutor is a ton of power in a very clear way that can shut down whole decks (good luck casting anything in BUG at that point...), whereas Teeg + Qasali with a singleton Sylvan Library is more about the soft lock and some extra aggression. Unlike Imperial Taxes, a protectable Teeg finishes off Miracles if you play right, whereas against a smart Miracles player, turn 3 or 4 Magus may not be much of anything. Wg is also better against Omnitell. Against Elves, especially after siding into an excellent sweeper, well, as good as Teeg is there, you still have to fend off an endless array of weenies when you take away their tutors and you need to find equipment quickly. And again, against something like BUG, a resolved Magus with a Mom out is kinda GG since they can't fetch or cast their relevant removal.
I like them both, despite the inherent risk of the mana base, and even though no one has played it, the Mono-W version from the Big Magic Open in Japan is still an awesome build, and one I don't think any of us really tried out very much. There is something really nasty about locking down fetchlands turn 2 and then having 8 land destruction lands plus 4 Rishadan Port. I'm pretty sure Infect and Omnitell will have problems with that, and so will Elves, since they will have a hard time ever fetching. Oh yeah, and Ghost Quarter can destroy basics...
So for my part, I think Death and Taxes is not only still one of the strongest anti-meta decks in Legacy, it also has enormous variety right now, compared to when I started playing it in early 2013(?) when we talked about the 5 flex slots and everything else seemed locked.
@Everyone
I am very interested in Vryn Wingmare. I know 2W isn't great, but being able to stack Thalia's effect feels better against everything except Elves and Merfolk, and a flying 2/1 isn't bad.
For example, I would immediately take it as a 1-of over Aven Mindcensor because it stacks a specific, powerful taxing effect, and it would function like Mindcensor does with Leonin Arbiter. Making every cantrip after turn 3 cost 2U feels pretty good.
Not sure what comes out though or if it could be played outside the mono-W build.
DnT, the "Thalia rides a Wingmare, your argument is invalid" edition?
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Vryn Wingmare
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
6 Plains
4 Flagstones of Trokair
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Council's Judgment
1 Cataclysm
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Or going BMO...
7 Plains
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Eiganjo Castle
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Mother of Runes
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Aven Mindcensor
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Vryn Wingmare
1 Flickerwisp
1 Serra Avenger
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Ęther Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Cataclysm
2 Containment Priest
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Council's Judgment
1 Path to Exile
1 Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 Council's Judgment
1 Grafdigger's Cage
I have to wonder what people are playing against. I mean, this ain't no pissing contest or anything, but I'm very confident about taking on any non-Belcher/Tin Fins matchup. Just as mentioned earlier, BUG with Toxic Deluge maindeck - somewhat rare - is the only fair deck I'm having to really struggle to grind out.
Keep in mind I'm approaching the meta are more or less GP decks to beat. That means Choke is viable A LOT of the time, and especially against decks like Miracles - by far the most winningest deck overall right now according to MTGTop8 - a superior option to Magus of the Moon. This shouldn't be about, 'does Wg or Wr do better against random deck X or deck y', it should be about 'which does better against the top of the field?'
Right now that is:
1. Miracles
2. OmniTell
3. Grixis
4. BUG Delver/Midrange
5. EsperBlade
6. ANT
Miracles is at about 15% and the rest hover at around 8-10%, which means this is over half of what you want to prepare to beat. For Miracles, OmniTell, and Grixis - top 3, mind you - Choke is better than Moon effects. For the first two, you're going to see a lot of basic Islands, and against Grixis, changing their lands into mtns with a deck full of Lightning Bolts might be very short lived.
BUG I'll concede is easy mode with Moon effects, and Wg has to play more like mono-DnT, which is still favorable. [A quick check of the most recent BUG lists, Delver, Cascade, or otherwise, shows very little maindeck Toxic Deluge, if included at all, as most favor playing True Name Nemesis.]
Esperblade, with Choke and Pridemage vs. Imperial Recruiter, we *have* to be talking a wash in favorability here, if Wg possibly more so, but as it pertains to ANT, Teeg is a much better option than Recruiter or Magus.
So there you have it. I don't doubt Wr is good against that field, but I have to believe Wg pulls off those particular matchups better. And those are the ones that matter most right now.
Also, you'd save about a grand not having to buy Recruiters.
Not if you play on MODO.
(Who am I kidding? I don't play this deck. I just saw your username on the latest posts and had to say I love it.)
I think you're overlooking some things, so I'll just go over the DtB one by one;
1. Miracles
Gaddock Teeg is very good obviously, protect it with mother of runes and/or Karakas and that's probably game, Qasali Pridemage is mostly useless. More 2 drops means less resiliency to counterbalance without a vial draw.
Imperial Recruiter is absolutely unbeatable for miracles if coupled with equipment or even by itself sometimes. Imperial Recruiter finds Imperial Recruiter that sits in the hand until the first one is hit by Terminus, and you then fetch up the first one again etc. Magus of the Moon often shuts off double white and/or double blue, it shuts off fetches that miracles are very good at abusing with top. It can win games on its own but can also be completely useless or even detrimental to your gameplan
2. OmniTell
Gaddock Teeg is reasonable, Qasali Pridemage is good but keeping up the mana from turn 2 to blow up omniscience can be a pain. And even then they can still have Cunning Wish -> Trickbind or the Emrakul in hand.
Magus of the Moon does basically nothing. Imperial Recruiter finds Thalia, Leonin Relic-Warder or Ethersworn Canonist. Coupled with vials it makes for very versatile answers to the various problems that Omnitell presents.
3. Grixis
Gaddock Teeg shuts down Dig Through Time, that is it. Qasali Pridemage does nothing.
Magus of the Moon shuts down Dig Through Time and makes it so that they can only cantrip once a turn. Imperial Recruiter out grinds them and finds answers.
4. BUG Delver/Midrange
Gaddock Teeg does basically nothing, Qasali Pridemage does nothing.
Magus of the Moon wins the game on the spot, Imperial Recruiter does the same.
5. EsperBlade
Gaddock Teeg does very little, Qasali Pridemage is good against the equipment.
Magus of the Moon wins the game on the spot 90% of the time, Imperial Recruiter does the same.
6. ANT
Gaddock Teeg wins the game on the spot. Qasali Pridemage does nothing.
Magus of the Moon sometimes buys time and with Phyrexian Revoker it can lock the storm player. Imperial Recruiter is too slow.
I think that's a more fair assessment of the match ups. I didn't comment on the sideboard cards because I don't think you can argue that match ups are good based on 1 sideboard card that isn't even uncounterable OR tutorable unless you want to spend an Enlightened Tutor on it which is really bad if it gets countered.
If you instead played 3 Chokes then I'd give you that your stoneblade match up is probably pretty good. But you're still stonecold to Elves and Infect which also makes up a considerable amount of the meta.
Some pages back when infect was everywhere after Tom Ross one back to back invitationals and made top 8 at GP New Jersey, people where asking "what do you do about infect?" and "I keep losing to infect what should I do?".
I had problems with infect too, what I did was add 2 Gut Shots to the board and that seemed to magically fix all my problems. Now I have Magus of the Moon and Sudden Demise, and all of a sudden I'm never losing to infect.
Infect is such a problem because they're too fast and all their threats present a unique problem.
Glistener Elf comes down on turn 1 and you have to have Mother of Runes or Swords to Plowshares on turn 1 and even then you are still dead on turn 2 to the right combination of cards.
Inkmoth Nexus cannot be removed sorcery speed which means that a Vines of Vastwood is always great on it except if you play removal on it in the end step which means it connected.
Blighted Agent is almost impossible to interact with, it really takes advantage of the fact that we only have 4 removal spells and no way to find them. More than half the time we are just straight up dead to Blighted Agent.
Vial is mostly too slow, same for Jitte and they have tons of answers for Jitte after board which makes it a poor and expensive gameplan. Of the 3 threats Inkmoth Nexus is the easiest to deal with because we also have 4 Wasteland 4 Rishadan Port. But Blighted Agent is such a gigantic beating, and they do have Brainstorm and Ponder to find it as well.
could the new pegasus enters in the imperial taxes build Mark ?
@Bahra:
I don't agree with many of your assessments with regards to Grixis and BUG, since apparently you completely overlooked what the opponent will do to fight you, especially post board. I'm not familiar with the MODO meta, but in paper most tempo/midrange black decks run multiples of -1/-1 sweepers (Dread of Night, Zealous Persecution, G. Charm, Sulfur Elemental) that Wr can be very weak against, seeing that you're running full sets of Flickerwisps and no way to interact with a Dread of Night in the mainboard (and only Warder in the SB, which can be killed easily and shuts off the rest of your creature base except the magi and SFM) for example.
One of the biggest strengths of Wg is how all of the creatures the green splash provides are resistant to these effects, and Qasali Pridemage is not only a mere piece of removal but also pushes for damage very early in the game, allowing you to go mor eaggressive than in other versions of DnT. You don't need to durdle around, just drop a Pridemage and a Serra Avenger and start beating and wait for the opponent to react. The deck can straight up race most of the field even when not disrupting the opponent's game plan at all, while still having the tools to do it just like mono-W does. Wg is less about spending the early game setting up the perfect lock than is to play a couple creatures and just clocking the opponent for 3-5 every turn and it's in the opponent's hand to find an answer while shutting down the most obvious ways for him to dig himself out of the hole (equipment, chumpblockers and high CMC spells) since you have the same mana denial package as mono-W does coupled with maindeck artifact removal.
The Grixis matchup is in fact very favorable thanks to the faster clock of the creature base, and having only 8-10 X/1's makes your matchup against BUG/Deathblade much easier than you might think looking at the cards alone. In these matchups more often than not the individual abilities of your creatures matter less than how beefy they are. You can straight up run 4 Pridemages and 4 Avengers without sacrificing much of the Wg gameplan and beat much harder than the opponent's puny Pyromancers and TNN's. And those creatures are very hard to kill especially when your opponents brings in all of the -1/-1 effects expecting an easy victory. Wg also has a slightly lower curve than mono-W or Wr, making you less susceptible to Daze and Wasteland effects if you don't have Vial.
Grixis/BUG also bring in artifacts post board to deal with our kit, namely Null Rod and Pithing Needle. So Qasali Pridemage with its activated ability is still a very relevant card in those matchups.
Hi all, it has been spoiled yesterday I believe, but nobody is mentioning it. Do you think Hallowed Moonlight can replace Containment Priest?
Ksmith, some bits on how Death and Taxes (and most nonblue creature-centered decks) runs...
-You want to try hard not to let your opponent's turn end with any untapped lands on your side. That is, you want to be using all of your lands each turn. You can't be waiting around for an opponent who may or may not cheat a creature onto the battlefield that turn.
-You want to use creatures whenever possible to do the job of other kinds of cards. You need creatures to influence your opponent (and attack). Your creatures can be vialed in. Thalia makes noncreature spells painful. And so on.
This has been my long way of saying that Containment Priest is almost certainly the better choice.
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"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Maybe I was thrown off by the fact that it can exile Entreat tokens and draws a card.
Yeah, I commented on MTGS how Red's leaning more towards control and Green more towards aggro. Red seldom runs Avengers, usually has fewer Brimazi/Crusaders, c2232 dropped maindeck Batterskull, etc. Some can be explained away by Recruiter grabbing a late-game finisher, but sometimes D&T has to apply early pressure and chaining through recruiter takes pressure-sapping time (or mana).
A lot of Magic comes down to play style and preference. It's useful to develop both splashes, be honest about what their relative strengths and weaknesses are, and provide potential players with options. It's a good thing that the deck can be tuned to better fit the aggro or control roles. There doesn't have to be a single winner (but I like the debate just the same).
I think so.Sure it draws a card, but oftentimes costs more, isn't an enduring effect, doesn't come with a free 3/1, etc. Generally speaking, Moonlight is worse. But feel free to test it!
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
Exactly this!!! I really dig the red splash and will be looking to play it again in the DC Open. Im interested in the green splash and will probably try it out a few times...... As long as we have Thalia we have everything!
Was the red splash and/or Magus of the Moon a liability for you in the tournament at all? Where, say, the Plateau was worse than a Plains and/or the Magus was just a Grey Ogre?
the plateaus were never a problem at all, i thought i would be hurting for double white but that was never the case. Magus has some effect in almost every game, burn, goblins and other mono colored decks probably wouldnt be bothered by it but you never see those at the top tables.
You could imagine that the plateaus being wastelandable plains, could be a liability from time to time and they are. But it is extremely rare, and having played a ton of matches with the deck by now I can assure you that you will not run out of red sources if you play your lands correctly. In my experience, people aggressively wasteland the Plateau(s) because they think they can take you off red, but that just doesn't happen if you play it right.
In my experience with the deck, I sometimes try to bait a wasteland w/ a plateau - that wasteland isn't hitting a more powerful land like a port or karakas, and you have relatively few red cards, all of which (g1) come on via vial at 3 anyway (or via a fetch you've been saving for when you actually need the red.)
You do have to play around stifle w/ your early fetches though, that's more relevant (it can affect your sequencing) than the plateaus themselves. But that's also not limited to the red splash.
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