Actually you need to find 4 mountain x 2 Val -> 24 dmg (2 can be in play) . Tested land configuration and with so many cantrips I didnt had problems with card selection. Anyway to minimalize risk with wastelands/sinkholes (who play it ?!) better add 1.
Anyway I found this deck is... slow, sure it's very stable with protection and CA (DTT) which isn't normally in combo decks. It can be compared to OmniTell since you also need two cards:
Explorer and R. Leap, but... you also need more mana - 1G for Leap, then 1 for Explorer and 1 more for activation, what is much worst compared to OmniTell - you doesn't win after, you need to Dig/Burning Wish/natural draw Scapeshift and more over cast it for 2GG.
In Sum to combo out you need:
3 key cards - Explorer, R. Leap, Scapeshift
Resources - 1G, G, G, 2GG.
It's just slow you can't combo out before turn 4 which is sometimes slower then Elves, sure you have a lot of tools, additional you running removal, but I don't think it can compete with Tier 1 decks.
Mana engine also require running at least 7 basic forest with is quite huge drawback - opening game with forest only lands isn't good unless we rebuild deck for mono-green one.
Scapeshift require at least 6-7 mountains, which restrict a lot manabase.
I'm off this project It won't work.
I didn't saw the appeal of running a pure Scapeshift deck anyway.
Why not run Leap normally and just sometimes get nut draws with Explorer? Maybe even Academy Rector to fetch Leap/Recurring Nightmare to get your engines going? Trying to build around combo-hyperramp sounds like a "danger of cool things"-case, as awesome as it might be.
Probably for the same reason we don't run Birthing Pod. It's too slow, durdles too much and just doesn't propel you forward enough.Originally Posted by Barook
Read Valakut. If there aren't at least 6 mountains in play, you get zero triggers.
There are a few important differences though. Leap is cheaper to cast, activates at instant speed, and can be used multiple times per turn. The obvious downside is that you don't get to choose what you get, and it goes to your hand rather than into play. It's also pretty horrible in multiples, but not really worth running at 1-2 copies. Anyway, the only reason Pod isn't horrible in multiples is because of the tapping and timing restrictions. Leap at least seems worth testing.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
He's saying if you have 6 mountains total, 2 of which are in play, then you can Scape for 4 mountains and 2 Valakuts, which will deal 24 damage. When the 4 mountains come into play, each one will see 5 other mountains, so the triggers will go off.
Running duals to trigger Valakut seems pretty weak to Wasteland. Valakut only deals damage if there are at least 5 other mountains in play. So all your opponent has to do is Waste the dual mountain that will be the first Valakut trigger to resolve and the rest of the triggers will fizzle. So you Scapeshift for 6 mountains and a Valakut, you Waste the first to resolve, take 3 damage, and the other five triggers fizzle because there are no longer 5 other mountains in play.
"Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle's triggered ability has an "intervening 'if' clause." That means (1) the ability won't trigger at all unless, at the time a Mountain enters the battlefield under your control, you control five or more Mountains other than that new one, and (2) the ability will do nothing if you control fewer than five Mountains other than that new one by the time it resolves."
Yes, one would be stupid to play Scapeshift right into an untapped Wasteland and not taking that into account.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
Derp, thanks.
Hi. Need SB advice. Long time no see any tournaments but in july I'll go to one. Here's my Pfire list:
Creatures:
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
2 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Primeval Titan
1 Free slot
Planeswalkers:
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Vraska the Unseen
Spells:
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei’s Divinig Top
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Slaughter Games
Lands:
4 Grove of The Burnwillows
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
3 Forest
3 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Kessig Wolf Run
Looks quite typical ;) 1 creature slot is free (don't have thrun, courser not even a thragtusk ;p) second bayou eventually will be, a overgrown tomb (or better to stay with 3 swamps)
Last time meta was:
2 reanimators
1 miracles
3 delvers (RUG BUG RUB)
1 Omnitell
1 Dark depths combo
1 Dn'T
I think about
3 carpets (still need to buy ;p)
3 Duress
2 nihil spellbomb
1 golgari charm
4 reb
that gives 2 free slot
help plx ;)
I think you're all falling for the too cute solves no problems conundrum. Evolutionary leap solves no problem the deck has and only constrains the way you build nic fit. The deck doesnt need anymore turn four help which is all it really does, so you can play a huge non creature spell ie 7-10 up to two turns earlier. Aside from scapewish no varient gains anything and scapewish gives up a lot of constancy and tutor options to cut zenith and all creatures for a two card combo that ramps, it doesn't actually win it doesn't speed up your clock and it doesnt fix combo matches. Walkerfit is the only thing I can see gaining from the card and I don't think its enough without doubling season and rector. I wish I was wrong and would love to be proved as such. If someone can show me why playing a turn two evolutionary leap is better then jamming a stoneforge or zenith> explorer > therapy is better in anygiven matchup im all ears. We're playing legacy not magicalchristmasland.tcg
Totally agree with @uncletiggy. It doesn't resolve any problems, it doesn't speed up enough so we don't see advantage to running it.
What's the status of Junk at the moment? I'm playing a legacy FNM and want to see what others have been doing. I'm wondering if Sylvan Safekeeper is worth a slot as its only real merit is being paired with Titania. I'd also like to show some planeswalker action, but is running just 1 enough? Elspeth, Garruk Relentless? Shit even Vraska could do work.
I'm considering cutting the 1 Recurring Nightmare as it rarely sees play, but it's so good with any number of my creatures.
I'm also wondering how you board against MUD? My listed SB can certainly be edited. I'm probably running too much GY hate anyway
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
3 Seige Rhino
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Titania
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Eternal Witness
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Path to Exile
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 GSZ
3 Top
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
3 Forest
3 Swamp
2 Plains
SB
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Leyline of the Void
2 Leyline of Sanctitiy
2 Golgari Charm
3 Thoughtseize
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Gaddock Teeg
Love the list,
against MUD all you really have to do is resolve a deed before they smokestack you to death. The deck really is not fast enough to compete. If they have forge master than even better because most lists play artifact lands as well.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
There's lot of gravebase decks so a Extirpate or Surgical Extraction. Maybe can be good agansit omni-tell to remove show and tell or win cards.
Two Slaughter Games against combo. I don't think you need 4 reb, 3 is good.
Infinite Obliteration
1BB
Sorcery
Name a creature card. Search target opponent's graveyard, hand, and library for any number of cards with that name and exile them. Then that player shuffles his or her library.
Some juicy Show and Tell hate.
If I was going to explore the power of evolutionary leap I'd begin with a creature package of 1-2 dryad arbor 4 explorers and 1-2 academy rectors with leaps over zeniths. Id go doubling season and walkers only lightly splashing white for plows rector and maybe elspeth suns champion maindeck.
In light of GP Lille, pros have begun discussing (and have seemingly been in favor of) a Sensei's Top ban in legacy. I will not go into detail as to my thoughts on the matter, save to note that I do believe a ban is probably necessary and I do not believe that Top is the correct one (nor am I part of the Brainstorm hype train); I also will admit that Top is a card Wizards has expressed dislike existing in [formats] for a multitude of reasons, some of which I agree with and some of which I don't.
Considering this, it is prudent to note here that there is a decent (~40%, in my mind) chance that Top will be banned, regardless of the implications on the format.
Obviously, a potential Top ban is VERY serious for us. Even many blue versions typically run at least 1 copy (I rather like the 3-2 brainstorm-top split, personally). For the blue versions, there are many other card quality/filtering devices (or even just raw card draw) that can be used in lieu of Top. However, there is somewhere of a lack of decent replacements for Top for the white and red versions, and I would like to steer discussion away from a very silly card towards a much more serious topic.
------
Interlude: I have purposefully left out my thoughts on Evolutionary Leap up to this point, because I have nothing positive to contribute to the discussion at all. You're talking about dedicating 4 slots of your deck to something that you only ever want to draw 1 copy of, the entire game, which is then useless after 1 turn. In addition, you also cannot then run things like Cabal Therapy as backup engines because you no longer have the requisite creature density -- AND at the earliest, you can't "go off" with Leap until turn 3.
In no way, shape, or form do I feel this is a viable option in a traditional Nic Fit shell. If something like Vampiric Tutor is unbanned, for some godforsaken reason, you MIGHT be able to convince me to at least try it, because then you'd run 4 Vamp Tutors and 1 Leap, which would be okay. Enlightened Tutor is too many colors, before that is brought up.
I don't know. My bottom line is that it is possible that a Leap deck exists, and if it does, it almost assuredly revolves around Veteran Explorer (or its blue cousin, Noble Benefactor) because that interaction is actually pretty silly. However, I would suggest that this theoretical deck --
A: Does not exist at this time. Either card(s) have to be printed for it to exist, or banning/unbannings need to happen to make it viable.
B: Is out of our temporal budget. There is a limited amount of forum space/poster time to work with, with regards to making a discussion yield a deck, testing it, and tuning it. There is sufficient danger of a Top banning that I would rather see discussion turn towards what we do in event of this happening, because I do not wish to see the archetype just die.
C: Frankly, probably just isn't very good. Everyone who is like zomg turn 4 scaspeshift -- Scapewish can ALREADY do that. Admittedly infrequently, but it does happen. I've done it, as have others in this thread. Scapewish gets to run a much better backup plan and I would argue better protection, while running with a better mana base.
I am in no way trying to stifle anyone's creativity, nor stop people from working on Leap + Explorer. My humble suggestion would be to simply move your discussions elsewhere, so that both Nic Fit and Leaping Veterans (or whatever cutsie legacy deck name you want to assign it) can benefit from a purer, more focused discourse.
------
Back to Top talk.
As I see it, there are a couple of options in a world where Top is banned. Note that I am referring only to our internal consistency, not what will happen to the metagame.
A: Run more Tutors. More Diabolic Intents. Sidisi becomes a staple/core piece rather than a good bro. Grim Tutor is likely something we have to look into deeper at this point, as well as functional wishboards.
B: Run blue. It is entirely within the realm of reason that White and Red variants simply just die. Blue versions can adopt more of the cantrip shell and become part of the problem rather than the solution as we're used to being. I've not exactly kept it quiet that I've been working on Grixis Pyromancer (control variant) lately, and I can definitely say that the Therapy/Probe/Brainstorm/Ponder/Dig shell is pretty insane. What -exactly- that means blue lists end up engendering, I am not sure.
C: Run more hard card draw. I'm talking your Harmonizes here, people. Night's Whisper, perhaps, is better still.
D: Run 3+ Sylvan Libraries and move away from Deed, into Deluge/Damnation (complementing with naturalize bros and maindeck Decays across all versions).
E: Further explore some of the deviant Nic Fit ideas, like Veteran ANT or some kind of crazy beatdown shell.
F: Linear strategies encompassing tutoring/filtering inherently. I put your Birthing Pods and Collected Companies down under this category -- both are strategies that require a ton of dudes in your deck, so if instability strikes, you can frequently still cobble something together from the pile of creatures that you draw.
All of these are possible things that we should be looking into in the event that Top gets banned in a week.
Options A and D seem the most favorable for preserving the decks identity. scroll rack might be worth adding to the list of possible avenues to take. Hopefully tho wizards is smart enough to know top is not the problem terminus and dtt are. Banning top kills miracles banning those two resets the format. They can always play supreme verdict or god forbid devastation tide.
Well i can only coment on the fact that some bannings definetly would be good for the format. Some change and diversity would eb refreshing. Although i think top most likely is too good of a card, it might not be wize to ban top, since it just as arhood is saying further limits nonblue decks in a format almost exclusively dominated by blue decks.
One of the main reason the format is so dominated by blue is ofc the lack of card selection from other colors, therefore banning top would make the situation even worse. Top besides miracles is a big reason decks like 12post, painter, nicfit, jund and to some extend non blue combo decks, just in general non blue decks which diversifies the format. However some restriction or nerf to the dominating miracles deck is imo definetly needed, not only cause its been so dominating but cause CB/TOP is just so amazingly boring to play vs.
Frankly i really hope they just ban counterbalance, imo its just as sad playing (once you've established the softlock) as it is facing.
Then dig through time is clearly way to good since it nullfies all other carddraw in the format, once again shutting down innovation and diversity. Why would anyone ever play say accumulated knowledge, thirst for knowledge or even meditate anymore when clearly DTT is superior in pretty much every occasion. In similair fashion as treasure cruise.
Deck creation concerning blue cards is just to restrictive, cause there is just way to many AUTO-INCLUDES, meaning every blue deck is pretty much the same except from some few exceptions. It's just so non-creative.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
