Rule change: Drawing extra cards illegally

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Game loss seems much simpler for 90% of the cases

[Lord Seth]

So.... Long Term Plans, Unexpectedly Absent, Insidious Dreams, Brainstorm... I assume these work more-or-less as described by the above scenario?

Yes.

This feels cheatyfacey as fuck.

Well, the purpose of it is to prevent people from changing the location of known cards when penalty shuffling.

[Michael Keller]

[TsumiBand]

Well, the purpose of it is to prevent people from changing the location of known cards when penalty shuffling.

The purpose is clear; the result remains to be seen.

[ThiefSlayer]

For some very clear reason, this thread reminds me of this one:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...e-of-the-game)

And actually I see this change as a potential to something good. Sometimes it happens naturally and will be much better than a gameloss, and sometimes it will suck that your opponent is the scum of the earth.

But actually the fact that the previously position known cards in the library will go back to their positions will be a huge restrictive factor to the cheating that may happen. The fact that people may cheat from something like this make me sick, I have to hope it won't be possible, or at least not something profitable for the cheater.

I just have one doubt, let's say you "mistakenly" drew a card from SDT and the 2 cards below the one that was bought were known (from top spinning). The cards will be separated, the deck shuffled and then will they be the 1st and 2nd cards or will they be the 2nd and 3rd again, while the 1st will be a random card?

EDIT: Thinking a little bit more about this I came to 2 possible cheating scenarios, to each one of the possibilities I said before: the 2 cards below go to the 1st and 2nd positions and you draw the cards faster; or they go to the 2nd and 3rd positions and you have a chance to drawing the card you needed to win. I got to the conclusion that I'm also sold to the game loss here.

[barcode]

This is a fantastic change. Players have had the game locked up and made a dexterity error, or a second-long lapse in concentration and then they lose.

Having the opponent shuffle a card away is WAY better than losing the game on the spot.

Players can still concede before revealing their hand in this way (you still get the warning).

Feel bads? Come on, would you rather take a game loss?

[TsumiBand]

This is a fantastic change. Players have had the game locked up and made a dexterity error, or a second-long lapse in concentration and then they lose.

Having the opponent shuffle a card away is WAY better than losing the game on the spot.

Players can still concede before revealing their hand in this way (you still get the warning).

Feel bads? Come on, would you rather take a game loss?

It shouldn't even BE a dex roll though, that's the thing. Draw one fscking card at a time, Brainstorm-resolving opponent; do NOT just swipe a fan of three-ish cards off the top and jam them in your hand with the consummate *smap smap smap* that like 70% of players do before they survey their hand and toss back "roughly two" cards. This isn't even a time-consuming operation in the grand scheme of things, and yet players shortcut it to the point that I can't watch a match online without wondering how many cards were actually drawn. It's really really bullshitty, and yeah a game loss is absolutely appropriate here.

[Aggro_zombies]

Feel bads? Come on, would you rather take a game loss?

The argument seems to be that the rule is prone to abuse because it lets you deliberately draw an extra card to generate a shuffle effect. Giving the opponent an effectively free Thoughtseize may or may not be worth it if the need is great enough.

Personally, I don't care for this change much. Prior to scry becoming evergreen I would have said it was 100% better for Standard and Limited play since the worst-case scenario (you concede to prevent the opponent from seeing your hand) is the same as the previous penalty (you lose), and this at least gives you an out to an honest mistake if you're ahead. Now that scry is around forever, though, players will know the location of certain cards in their libraries, so this creates big headaches for judges who will have to determine what does and does not get shuffled - in every format. Yowch. Possibly they will change the policy of setting aside known cards from the library and simply make it a straight shuffle, but that remains to be seen and probably won't happen right away unless people start complaining.

Also remember: this comes with a warning. Warnings are tracked. If it turns out that you're "accidentally" drawing an extra card a whole bunch, bad things will happen to you.

[jrsthethird]

I'm just worried how this new change affects MODO.

[Sloshthedark]

wtf? how this is better exactly? looks like we need to put more excitement to ... grvs

not to mention how dangerous lower penatly for drawing cards and free shuffle is

imo the game should have clear unchanging rules in it's competitive form, clear lines, not a lottery, - just just can't draw a card - gameloss=bad thing - easy, memorable, and you won't again // well if you've drawn extra card lets - xyz and a whoolahopa dance, however memorable you have no idea what happened and carry on with you careless game which can occasionaly result even into an advantage...

every update makes it worse for people who do not play that frequently and follow the updates (whom should more soft and friendly rules benefit the most), just having the same rules would prevent most of the violations (not about drawing extra, I'm looking at you triggers)

[Asthereal]

... and free shuffle ...

GUYS!!!

Quit that nonsense about free shuffles.
A judge shuffle shuffles only the random part of a deck.
Known cards always stay where they are.
so NO FREE SHUFFLE!

[Lemnear]

GUYS!!!

Quit that nonsense about free shuffles.
A judge shuffle shuffles only the random part of a deck.
Known cards always stay where they are.
so NO FREE SHUFFLE!

as if its so easy to determine. Can you as a judge or opponent clearly say that a Miracles player (Running Fetches, Brainstorm, Ponder, Jace and DTT) has knowledge of his exact top 0/1/2/3 cards without a doubt? I bet, this is going to be complete mess in paper tournaments and ending up with shuffling all cards most of the time as no one is able to tell for sure, if player X has knowledge of the top Y number of cards. It gets even more iffy with tucking effects.

Hell, in Lille I faced a guy who had serious troubles following my manapool when I was casting Rituals in my combo turn and you expect that opponents will keep track about known cards on top and at the bottom of their opponents library?

I'm with Martin here: This WILL result in free shuffles

[barcode]

The argument seems to be that the rule is prone to abuse because it lets you deliberately draw an extra card to generate a shuffle effect.

What you have described is cheating, not drawing extra cards.

[Lemnear]

What you have described is cheating, not drawing extra cards.

Do you dare to differ as a judge? In a Top 8 Elimination? Show me the Judge who's ballsy enough to DQ a player instead of returning the extra drawn card and shuffling the deck

[Julian23]

It's a hard decision to make for any judge, but I see people DQ'ed for that kind of thing several times over the course of a year.

[barcode]

Do you dare to differ as a judge? In a Top 8 Elimination? Show me the Judge who's ballsy enough to DQ a player instead of returning the extra drawn card and shuffling the deck

If I think a player is intentionally breaking a rule to gain an advantage they are going to be DQ'd. I don't care if it's round 1 of a GPT or the finals of a 5k.

[TsumiBand]

If I think a player is intentionally breaking a rule to gain an advantage they are going to be DQ'd. I don't care if it's round 1 of a GPT or the finals of a 5k.

Wait, no sportsballer has ever intentionally fouled against the other team as a strategic tactic?

[iamajellydonut]

While I am vehemently against this policy change, I don't believe it can be consistently exploited to the point of being a major fault of the policy. I mean, take a situation in which your opponent desperately needs a shuffle because they're chilling with nonlands on top of their library and are looking for land or desperately need a shuffle in order to find a specific CMC to flip with Counterbalance. They draw the "extra" card. Now, how hard is it for a judge to look at the remaining top X cards of that players library and their hand and figure out what's up? Granted, there will be corner cases in which someone can successfully cheat, but those have and will always exist regardless of this change.

My main problem is with the honest cases where someone draws a card. Drawing an extra card is, to me, the Magic equivalent of drowning a baby. Whether the cards are drawn accidentally or not, the penalty shouldn't be a slap on the wrist. There is an action. There is an equivalent consequence. And a game loss fits that bill pretty nicely. A warning and discarding back down to handsize just doesn't seem like a good enough solution. The parents of that seafaring baby sure as hell aren't getting community service.

People are posting things like "I've gotten a game loss for drawing extra cards and I think this is a good change because that game loss sucked", but maybe it'd suck less if you just stop drawing extra cards. I've gotten several game losses for decklist errors, gave myself a game loss by making the wrong play after a judge informed me he was giving me a warning for slow play, and had a reeeal long talk with a judge at GPNJ for playing a Chalice of the Void through my own Gaddock Teeg. And, you know what, for all of those and more, I fucking deserved it. There are consequences for being making mistakes.

[Lemnear]

Wait, no sportsballer has ever intentionally fouled against the other team as a strategic tactic?

Clearly no foul, but....

[Lemnear]

Wait, no sportsballer has ever intentionally fouled against the other team as a strategic tactic?

...it however reminds me of this...





...which was also no foul! LMFAO!