Originally Posted by jandax
I agree with what you said, Omni-tell is a pain... sadly I'm not sure what we can do about it either, it's hard to cover both angles at the same time... maybe even impossible, it's also really easy for them to switch the line of play quickly. I would much rather play Sneak and Show then Omni-Tell, Sneak and Show is easier to disrupt. Miracles I think is entirely winnable, and I've had success against Miracles (Limted times playing them of coruse, but success none the less). I'm not sure if the new Monastary Mentor build will change that.
Rando thought of the day. If everyone is trying to win with 1/1 tokens (Monastary Mentor / Young Pyromancer / Lingering Souls), perhaps we should splash black for Illness in the Ranks. The black splash also opens us up to discard / Slaughter Games (which seems like a good way to shut Omnitell down, should you get a chance to cast it).
If you read back in the last couple of pages, splashing black has been pretty good for me with the exact cards you mention. I have yet to try any discard, and would like to hear feedback from anyone who decides to try it, in particular Cabal Therapy.
What about Sharpshooter?
I think all the points made about that in the DnT imperial taxes discussion apply to sharpshooter here. The biggest one being that it doesn't kill mentor or tokens if they have a spell, and that it doesn't have haste and is easy to kill.
Canonist is your ticket to the Omnitell match, the same way ensnaring bridge is to sneak and show. You let the show and tell resolve and hope they don't plop down emrakul. With canonist out you have time to beat them down and/or find backup protection or extra canonists. It's really that important because it stops their combo cold. They maybe have one or two answers they could cunning wish for, wipe away is a pain, but that's why multiple canonist are really the only way to go. Also, grindstone fucks with their ant combo because you can just mill their emrakul and break up the chain.
With this in mind id honestly rather play against Omnitell than sneak attack. One can tweak the list to better combat one or the other. In the end we have silver bullets in canonist for Omnitell and bridge for sneak attack. They have wipe away, maybe two, and tutors and can trips to find it. Show and tell should be countered when one doesn't have a hate piece in hand, otherwise I'd gun for their tutors and dtt and even brainstorm+fetch if you have an extra blast.
Just like miracles, it's winnable and very skill intensive.
My $0.02
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Got a chance to play a bit with a Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the deck yesterday, and my first impressions are overwhelmingly positive. It is extremely valuable as a tutorable removal spell that also buys several turns, and eliminates certain outs when you're at a low life total.
In particular, I played an insane game against BUG delver involving bridges and welders, and Pia allowed me to make sure I would not die to a topdecked deathrite shaman over the course of like 15 turns of being at 1 life. In addition, she managed to kill a previous DRS, chump block a lethal delver, shoot that delver, next turn, and kill a Liliana in the same game. Obviously this is a lot more value than would be typical, but the card has tremendous utility, and made every crap lotus petal, extra grindstone, etc. very good.
Played in a local 40-man for duals this week. Had a hard time deciding what deck to play, it was between Omni, Grixis Tempo with DRS green splash, Miracles, or this. Omni is popular right now but not a lot of people in the Seattle area are fans of the deck. We have a shitload of miracles and crazy 4-color brew/delver players though, so I thought painter would be a good position. It was also my first Legacy deck and I hadn't played it in a while.
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City or Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great furnace
4 mountain
5 fetchland
4 recruiter
4 painter
3 welder
2 simian
1 revoker
1 jaya
1 ethersworn canonist
1 magus of the moon
4 moon
4 stone
3 top
3 petal
1 bridge
4 pyroblast
3 red blast
2 tutor
sideboard
1 enlightened tutor
1 reb
1 crypt
1 rip
1 thorn
1 trinisphere
2 bridge
1 magus of the moon
2 firebolt
2 koth
1 sphere of law
1 manic vandal
Round 1 Reanimator 1-0
Very hard matchup, and I knew what he was on as he was a friend/local player. I decided to go for the T1 blood moon g1 and it got forced. Proceeded to scoop to an animate dead'd griselbrand on t3.
Game 2 I manage to land an ethersworn canonist and painter on blue early in the match. 3 red blasts stop his attempts to combo and I grind him out I think turn 5 or 6.
Game 3 he drops an underground (perhaps on purpose to bait me, he is a smart guy) and passes and I go for the turn 1 moon again. It gets forced. He gets a reanimation target in his yard with a careful study turn 2 (I think tidespout.) I tutor for RIP eot and land it turn 3. There's a bit of draw go, I think I land a stone and a top but no painter, I top into crypt for backup and then top into a canonist. It's a pretty nice lock. I eventually get there with painter/stone.
Round 2 Death and taxes 1-1
Game one was crazy. I won't go into detail because it was really long and grindy, but basically the board state at then end of the game on his side is 3 mother of runes, batterskull, jitte, sofai, 2 revokers on grindstone, 2 aeither vial, a bunch of beaters (no fliers though). I have blood moon, magus of the moon, 3 recruiters, 2 painter, grindstone, top, revoker on mother of runes, 2 goblin welder. There was probably more I'm forgetting. I also blasted an artifact early so I as able to weld one artifact away per turn (but not two, which is why I couldn't weld both revokers away). Basically I only needed blast to win (blast one revoker, weld the other away) and I never found it. Eventually he got a third revoker on welder and that sealed the game, he could get jitte online and start picking away at my board.
Game 2 he rolled over me pretty quick, I didn't draw any relevant interaction and he swords everything I played.
Round 3 Sylvan Plug with loam lock tech 2-1
Game 1 I land a moon which turns off most of his loam tricks and titania. He lands a chalice on 1 before I can play stone or welder. I try to get painter + jaya to blow it up but he manages to stop it. Beatdown plan time. It grinds on until we both have like 9 lands in play. At one point I recruiter for recruiter for recruiter and start beating, he finds that spell that destroys a land and gives all opponent's creatures -1/-1. I beat him down to 3 and he gets enough blockers and wins with board control.
Games 2 and 3 I manage to moon him and grind him out fairly quickly.
Round 4 Punishing Jund Loam Chalice madness 2-2
This is a rough matchup. Every game I had a moon, and every game he had mox diamond to generate non-red mana and a decay to break the moon lock. Chalice on 1 both games. Jaya, welder, revoker all die to p-fire. Couldn't break his lock and he didn't care about mine.
Round 5 nic fit miracles hybrid 3-2
This guy was good but new to playing control. My blasts, moons, and combo were really good here every game. 2-0 grinded him out in the first 6 turns. I had the best pairings out of the 3-2's so I was locked for top 8.
Cut to top 8 - Punishing Jund (same opponent from R4)
Read above. Horrible matchup.
Got a fourth plateau for my trouble. It was a fun day. Favorite game of the day was my first loss to D&T, so much fun and crazy.
My experiences with Punishing Jund have always been OK, but they never had Chalice so there's that. That does seem annoying. This seems like a place where Manic Vandal can do some work, since you don't have to worry about it being countered, though you do have to worry about discarding it.
Also Engineered Explosives / Ratchet Bomb work pretty great against Chalice. Perhaps try to find room for one main or in the side?
against chalice.decks or couterbalance.decks, I use to side in Vexing Susher. It could help
Are any of you guys playing in the Richmond Premier IQ? Also I am considering not playing the W/R version and just play mono R.
I've had some success with this deck over the last 2 weeks. Played in my local Legacy tourney last week and went 4-0. Played against RUG delver, Tezzerator, OmniShow and Manaless Dredge. The RUG and dredge matchups were actually on camera...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKaXgNx8DeQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaLVNhj8Wy8
I also played in the MTGO daily today and won my first 3 matches before dropping to URW Stoneforge in the finals. I did beat Omnishow and Miracles tonight.
I will say that the black splash with Slaughter Games and Engineered Plague have definitely done some work in those MUs.
Here is the list I am currently playing:
Lands
3 [ZEN] Mountain (3)
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MR] Great Furnace
1 [UNH] Plains
3 [EX] City of Traitors
4 [V12] Ancient Tomb
1 [B] Badlands
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
2 [B] Plateau
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
2 [JGC] Goblin Welder
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 [NPH] Spellskite
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [CH] Blood Moon
1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [V09] Lotus Petal
3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
3 [THS] Magma Jet
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 1 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [B] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [M15] Phyrexian Revoker
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [EVE] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [GTC] Assemble the Legion
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [LRW] Thorn of Amethyst
SB: 1 [AL] Pyrokinesis
SB: 1 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 2 [RTR] Slaughter Games
SB: 1 [LG] Chains of Mephistopheles
Magma Jets have also been ALL STARS in the deck and I think finishing off the last 2 points with jet has gotten me two games against Miracles and Omnishow. The spellskite has also been fantastic, as you can see in the MU against RUG delver.
The only cards I'm currently not sure about are the Chains of Mephistopheles and the 4th red blast in the board, although the 4th blast has actually been pretty good. I actually still have yet to play the chains and would never tutor for it. I'm wondering if there is another card that has good game against combo...specifically ANT, OmniShow and maybe splash against stoneforge. I'm wondering what cards exist that don't allow opponents to search decks, such as Aven Mindcensor. Any cheap enchantment that does something similar? Or is there another black enchantment that really hoses blue? Also, would bitterblossom be better than Assemble? It comes down faster but obviously has the downside of damage and only one token per turn.
Anyone else having any further success with the black splash?
I don't think we should dip too far into black as we also got a splash of white, but I sure as hell love the 2 Slaughter Games and 2 Engineered Plagues in my board. However Chains of Mephistoteles also seems like a nice thought, did it have any real game changing effect on any of your games?
As for the anti-search, we do have Leonin Arbiter to be fetched with Recruiter, or Stranglehold to be fetched with Enligthened. Both's a bit slow, but seems like decent options to shut down ANT if you're not facing a Turn 1-2 kill. I believe Canonist, Thorn or Trinispheres still is the real answer thought.. the potential turn 1's are too crucial.
I am going to try it out in a few weeks at the local. Dunno about your list specifically but def with the black splash
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Chains seems like it might be cool, I'd certainly try it, preferably before buying it.
Speaking of $$$ legends enchantments, I've definitely considered a SB The Abyss before as well, as it doesn't really kill our combo, but certainly helps break parity in long games against things like DnT, BUG, etc. which really just can't beat it.
I haven't really tried it though, as those matchups aren't terrible to begin with, and spot removal has been fine (I'm running Sudden Shock, which owns DnT).
I'm not sure that Leonin Arbiter actually does anything against ANT or Omnishow. The 2 mana payment isn't very had for them to make when they are going critical. It might slow them some, but I don't think it's powerful enough to see play.
My guess is Stranglehold is too slow to actually help. This card is very intresting but I do think for it to be useful we would want to speed up our mana a bit more deck a lot by running even more fast mana sources. Crome Mox or Mox Diamonds perhaps...
Another (bad) option is Shadow of Doubt
Why not just play Aven Mindcensor if you want this effect, yes you can't suprise them as much, but you can tutor for it with Recruiter.
Also on the subject of Engineered Plague, why Plague over say Illness in the Ranks or Dread of Night. It's clearly the more versatile card, but it's also got a higehr CMC.
Illness seems fine if your concern is Mentor / Young Pyromancer tokens, does nothing about DnT
Dread of Night seems fine if your concern is Mentor / DnT, does nothing about Young Pyromancer
Plauge can in theory do more in more matchups but depending on the actual goal might just be a more expensive Illness or Dread.
Sometimes having a card that is more versatile is absolutely worth it, but sometimes I find that the value of more versatility is deceptive and can have you play suboptimal cards for small marginal value increases that don't happen with enough frequency to justify it. Just a thought, Plague could be 100% right.
Just throwing in my own two cents, Plague can hurt Elves and Goblins, even if it doesn't shut them down.
I do also believe the shuffle-cutters aren't worth it (as I also commented), just threw in some options as requested. But yes.. Leonin was a terrible suggestion indeed.I'm not sure that Leonin Arbiter actually does anything against ANT or Omnishow. The 2 mana payment isn't very had for them to make when they are going critical. It might slow them some, but I don't think it's powerful enough to see play.
My guess is Stranglehold is too slow to actually help. This card is very intresting but I do think for it to be useful we would want to speed up our mana a bit more deck a lot by running even more fast mana sources. Crome Mox or Mox Diamonds perhaps...
I believe the versatility is king, being able to handle DnT and Mentor as well as the opposite Pyromancer decks is relevant. As mentioned it also hits tribals (+Merfolks), and especially Elves is a MU I'd give no regrets to cover a lil bit more.Plauge can in theory do more in more matchups but depending on the actual goal might just be a more expensive Illness or Dread.
The cost isn't really an issue, as you most of the time want them to drop some some targets before slamming it, or dry their hand beforehand depending on MU. The only matchup were I'd want a faster drop is a turn earlier against Elves, which neither Illness nor Dread hits at all.
Yes, this exactly. Plague is just so much better against tribal decks and it can kill true-name. It is also actually really good against the new Miracles deck. Name Wizard and 80% of their win conditions are dead.
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Anyone have any additional Parents testing? Purely based on speculation alone and the freeing of spots, I'm strongly considering playing one in the board to make up for Koth's worse position with Yung P and Mentor everywhere and the need for a pseudo alternate wincon. I'm considering Parents over Assemble just because the line A) of Moon -> Recruiter -> Parents is much easier to assemble and harder for the opponent to deal with than line B) dancing around with etutor and trying to get five mana and wondering if dropping a moon early is still even the right play.
Strawberry Shortcake
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...erry-Shortcake
What a brainstorm do? Draw card and activate on draw effects fix hand, removing woods
#FreeNedleeds
Haven't got the games in yet but planning to test out mom and dad in the next two weeks. I'll try to let you guys know how I feel before scg dc. A
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