[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Stevestamopz]

Played in a small 4 round with r/w yesterday.

Round 1: Punishing Jund: 1-1 Draw
Round 2: Four Horsemen sideboard into Show and Tell: 2-1 Win.
Round 3: Elves: 2-1 Win
Round 4: Dredge 1-2 Loss (In game 3 with him on the play he hit me for exactly 20 on turn 2 )

The deck I played is posted in my signature but it's pretty much Bahra's with Mangara and a worse sideboard. I need something to replace the SoLaS, any ideas?

[Bosque]

Interesting D&T in 11th place at an SCG IQ (http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=88270).

22 land, the full 4 Karakas, 3 Mangara of Corondor (28 creatures) and no Sword of Fire and Ice in the main is certainly a shift from the majority of recently placing lists.

This list and some other discussion recently makes me wonder if a full on tax environment (4 Thalia 4 Wingmare, possibly some number of Phantasmal Image?) might work well with Mangara and Fiend Hunter as removal rather than StP (probably would want to run some Cavern of Souls on Human).

[Fatal]

It can exist but with few condition:
1. Opponent doesn't start with Delver, counter vial, then waste your land.
2. Opponent doesn't play Jund and have dark confidants.
3. Opponent doesn't play MUD and just played turn 1 Metalworker.

Those conditions aren't so common in world of DTT, where most decks abandon wasteland just to play more cantrips / DTT.

Anyway after testing I can say that Fiend Hunter is turn faster then Mangara. Sure Mangara has more application in taxing but this turn can change a lot.

About Phantasmal Image - it's very good card which is scalable on your skill vs opponent skill. Winning vs elves after he tried to hoof me (Flicker vialed to break the math, and block with BSkull), then cast Image coping Hoof, for Lethal was really hilarious. After that I realized that If opponent use his Symbiote better (not to block but to remove hoof in resp to etb trigger) that would change all game.

[Luca Grease]

Hoof isn't an elf, so there's no way he could bounce it with symbiote...

[Fatal]

..sorry if I wasn't write it enough easy:

Opponent bounce some random elf to untap his hoof to block my weenies boosted by Phantasmal Image (Hoof), instead of answer etb which Phantasmal create to target it with Symbiote.

[c2232]

Played the Richmond Premier IQ with the green splash..... I feel like a have been trolled. The green splash did little to nothing and sometimes less. I will not be playing the green splash again.

[Luca Grease]

..sorry if I wasn't write it enough easy:

Opponent bounce some random elf to untap his hoof to block my weenies boosted by Phantasmal Image (Hoof), instead of answer etb which Phantasmal create to target it with Symbiote.

I still don't understand... Target what in response to the image's etb trigger? The hoof? Isn't that what he did anyway?

[Bosque]

It can exist but with few condition:
1. Opponent doesn't start with Delver, counter vial, then waste your land.
2. Opponent doesn't play Jund and have dark confidants.
3. Opponent doesn't play MUD and just played turn 1 Metalworker.

Those conditions aren't so common in world of DTT, where most decks abandon wasteland just to play more cantrips / DTT.

Anyway after testing I can say that Fiend Hunter is turn faster then Mangara. Sure Mangara has more application in taxing but this turn can change a lot.

About Phantasmal Image - it's very good card which is scalable on your skill vs opponent skill. Winning vs elves after he tried to hoof me (Flicker vialed to break the math, and block with BSkull), then cast Image coping Hoof, for Lethal was really hilarious. After that I realized that If opponent use his Symbiote better (not to block but to remove hoof in resp to etb trigger) that would change all game.

I guess I should have qualified this with some statement of "I think running more 3 cmc creatures looks really slow but..." ;)

[from Cairo]

I think what's being said is that when Fatal cast Phantasmal Image copying Craterhoof Behemoth his elves opponent responded to the +X/+X trigger by using Symbiote to untap Image triggering it to sac and the Behemoth trigger then resolves for +X-1/+X-1, where instead if they'd used Symbiote to untap Craterhoof as a blocker it might have been better... I fail to see how though.

[redtwister]

@C2232
So what happened?
What decks did you play?
What was your list?

[c2232]

@C2232
So what happened?
What decks did you play?
What was your list?

yeah sorry but not really in the mood to give a huge tourny report on it.... i ended up losing to the jeskai deck that won, lands, and goblins.... the jeskai guy was just on a heater though the teegs are pretty piss poor against hiim and every other stoneblade deck, the lands match up is horrible, and i cant even explain goblins other than i had pointless green cards in my deck and fetchlands dealing damage to me for no reason.

[CptHaddock]

yeah sorry but not really in the mood to give a huge tourny report on it.... i ended up losing to the jeskai deck that won, lands, and goblins.... the jeskai guy was just on a heater though the teegs are pretty piss poor against hiim and every other stoneblade deck, the lands match up is horrible, and i cant even explain goblins other than i had pointless green cards in my deck and fetchlands dealing damage to me for no reason.

Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.

[Luca Grease]

I think what's being said is that when Fatal cast Phantasmal Image copying Craterhoof Behemoth his elves opponent responded to the +X/+X trigger by using Symbiote to untap Image triggering it to sac and the Behemoth trigger then resolves for +X-1/+X-1, where instead if they'd used Symbiote to untap Craterhoof as a blocker it might have been better... I fail to see how though.

Oh, so symbiote can target your opponent's creatures, I had missed that. Still, hardly a compelling argument for running phantasmal image

[nevilshute]

So, how have people been liking the new Pegasus? Is it the real deal? A 1, 2, 3 or 4 of? I haven't been playing much D&T lately, but will probably take it for a spin soon (monoW).

[c2232]

Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.

I would say that mono white is just as good as the green splash if not better. I did beat omni-tell, D&T, and a weird pox/lands mash up...... Again though I had useless cards in the D&T and Pox matches.

[SwordsToTimeshares]

Minus stoneblade which I imagine is still pretty good against Wg D&T, I don't really think that the green splash really would have helped you out in any of the matchups that you played against. Sounds like you just lost to variance, and just being very unlucky meta wise.

Absolutely not. Pridemage, Teeg, and Sylvan Library are all relevant against Goblins, Teeg mainly because every Goblins player will side in Pyrokinesis against DnT. Pridemage blows up their Vials, and they plain don't have an answer to Library.

Against Lands, you absolutely want Sylvan Library, and an early Pridemage is great against Exploration, often a reason to keep an otherwise mediocre hand for them. The most relevant cards are still Rest in Peace, Pithing Needle, and Wasteland, but there isn't any discernible net-loss from playing green splash against Lands.

I think Disguruntled Elk is right from before: the only matchups you lose a few % points to is Delver, and those are generally very positive already. I'm of the mind that "loss" might be negligible with Choke coming in, but basically your only real concern is Stifle.

[c2232]

Absolutely not.

I guess it comes down to personal preference. I don't see myself trying the green splash again but that's me, I wish you luck with it.

[Curby]

I guess it comes down to personal preference. I don't see myself trying the green splash again but that's me, I wish you luck with it.

[a] small sample size upon which to base conclusions for performance in a larger context.

You've obviously more experience with the Red splash than the Green. Your results still make a valid data point, but it would be nice to hear from some more experienced Green splash players.

You're also a well-known proponent of the Red splash, which may affect the results. I'm not saying you're trying to sabotage your experiences with Green, but confirmation bias works in subtle ways. (Thoughts like "This can't possibly be as good as Red, can it?" can be a self-fulfilling prophecy.)

I highly encourage you to continue playing red splash if you're adamantly against green. One crash and burn at a tourney does not mean the deck isn't viable.

Roughly how many total games have you played with Green, vs. how many with Red and mono-white? Pilot familiarity is an important factor. It's natural to be discouraged with a poor result, but to let that cast an overly pessimistic view of the deck doesn't do you (or the deck) any favors.

Given that there are a lot of red splash fans here, I'm certainly interested in its further developments. Have you been able to find a way to fit Vryn Wingmare into your builds? If so, how has it performed? Mono-white fans have been going nuts over it, and I think I can fit up to two in the Green splash, though I'm hesitant about what it will do to my susceptibility to sweepers and removal, as they are yet more x/1 creatures.

[c2232]

Roughly how many total games have you played with Green, vs. how many with Red and mono-white? Pilot familiarity is an important factor. It's natural to be discouraged with a poor result, but to let that cast an overly pessimistic view of the deck doesn't do you (or the deck) any favors.

Given that there are a lot of red splash fans here, I'm certainly interested in its further developments. Have you been able to find a way to fit Vryn Wingmare into your builds? If so, how has it performed? Mono-white fans have been going nuts over it, and I think I can fit up to two in the Green splash, though I'm hesitant about what it will do to my susceptibility to sweepers and removal, as they are yet more x/1 creatures.

Mono White I have thousands of matches, green I would say close to 100 or so (I tested it pretty hard in the little time I had), with red I actually have the PIQ I played in Baltimore and that's it. It's not a pessimistic view at all, I gave it a legitimate run and I personally believe it performed poorly in the vast majority of games I played.... I think Teeg should be moved to the sideboard as he is just plain useless in a lot of games, and was usually the first thing I sided out. I'm currently busting my ass to get one more recruiter so I can run red in the DC Open and I feel confident in it, I will be testing the shit out it for the next 1.5 weeks just to make sure I know a bit better.

[Morzas]

So, how have people been liking the new Pegasus? Is it the real deal? A 1, 2, 3 or 4 of? I haven't been playing much D&T lately, but will probably take it for a spin soon (monoW).

I ran it as a 4-of last week at Card Kingdom and went 3-1. Being able to have it and Thalia in play, or even better, two copies of it and a Thalia felt very strong. I didn't miss my Serra Avengers or my one-of Mangara at all. The card strengthens my game against unfair decks, which are the ones I'm more worried about. Serra Avenger is very strong against fair decks but my real haymaker in those games is Stoneforge Mystic, not Avenger.