The future of Legacy?

[Krimson Viper]

I really wish Legacy could just part ways with WotC and ignore all of their announcements and tournaments and be its own company because WotC doesn't want them and Legacy doesn't want WotC, but that's a pipe dream.

Back on topic, my Legacy scene is actually getting more active as time goes on, and I'm from the Bay Area of California. NorCal, pretty notorious for not having interest in Legacy when compared to SoCal. In the last year though, it's gone from one event a month at one store, to three stores and one of them having almost weekly tournaments for Legacy, so long as there's nothing major coming from WotC that weekend, like prereleases, PPTQs, etc. I have to drive thirty minutes or more to get to them, but they're there and I'm enjoying them.

To be honest, I'm glad SCG dropped Legacy streaming. The format has been unhealthy for awhile, and it's hard to tell when that really happened. The streams from SCG were boring, even with commentary from Ceddy and Sulli. Everything just got bland and i could actually put SCG on the screen so it could lull me to sleep, and the best part was that I could wake up an hour later and say "sweet! I didn't miss anything!" Since the same deck was being piloted by a different player. I just really wish SCG didn't get their grubby little paws on this format and rape it before letting it go.

Now I've picked up streams like SouthFloridaMagic and Tuskvision for my Legacy fixings, but they provide interactive commentary -and- show a variety of decks on camera. They are showing different decks in the swiss, but in the reality of things, top eight will have SCG event-like decks because they really are the best decks. I believe Legacy, as a whole, is hurting. In certain areas, it's thriving. In the next year or two, we will really see what gets happen to Legacy.

It can go either way for me, really. I am beginning to hate WotC as a company, and some of its "pro players" can really S my D. I'm already thinking about leaving this game because fuck both of them.

[UnsungHero]

My legacy scene has Ebbs & Flows in terms of format participation. Over the years we have people come and go with interest in the format. We have a core group of 8-10 people who travel to small events, mainly just to see other people who play the format. If SCG suddenly gets ride of legacy it will be a bummer, but not the end of the world. The people who are really passionate about legacy are the people you want to play and enjoy the format with, rather than a bunch of wanna-be pro players.

One thing my playgroup has considered is making a giant proxy box. I'm not talking a box of already made decks, but a box of proxies that copies contain multiple format staples (like have like 30 of each dual or forces or whatever.) This way people can try and test new decks and concepts without having to drop money on cards and if they truly are committed to the format maybe they will buy their own cards and play in the random tournaments that come here and there. Even if they don't buy in, it is still an interesting way to get people to at least try the format, and play something different as well as having new opponents. You can't sanction it with DCI, but who the hell cares because the only sanctioning it some stupid ass planeswalker points that doesn't mean shit to the average player anyways.

Legacy (like vintage) is a grassroots format, people want to keep it alive and are usually the ones working hard to create events and they create unique and fun atmospheres that are excellent alternatives to the SCG tournaments.

[cheerios]

Most of the casual legacy players in my area moved into EDH and modern.

I don't even know if we will see a significant increase in player base with a hypothetical dual lands reprint. The current state of legacy has more problems than availability. Modern players (mostly new players) hate mana denial, turn 1 kills, etc. These guys grew up playing a different "version" of magic. We're used to good counterspells, mana denial, while they grew up with cancel, big creatures etc. Sadly, most of the guys with the legacy cards have outgrown the game

Cheers

[wcm8]

This is an interesting idea, but I still think you'd need a supplemental ban list. Jitte isn't banned in this format unless you count the special GP printing. And Top isn't unless you count FTVs, which means Stoneforge Countertop Thopters would probably be brutal.

And if you do count FTVs, FTV: 20 really guts this format, taking out Dark Ritual, Swords to Plowshares, Hymn to Tourach, and Green Sun's Zenith, not to mention Lotus Petal, Aether Vial, and Berserk in other FTVs.

You're not wrong about the mythic rarity messing with Legacy though. Omniscience is a cute Timmy card in any format except those where S&T, Eureka, Hypergenesis, and Academy Rector are legal.

You're right, there would be a supplemental ban list to hit the cards that are obviously broken. I think I would also add Snapcaster Mage to the banned list since creatures like Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant are banned. I'd also probably ban ubiquitous cards like Brainstorm and Lightning Bolt, considering Swords to Plowshares and Hymn to Tourach are banned.

I think I *would* include FTV, because the point of banning All Mythics is to force this hypothetical format to look quite different from existing alternatives. So getting rid of those cards would force players to play weaker alternatives, and would also eliminate some of the problematic decks.

Notable Legacy/Vintage cards banned due to their elevation to Mythic Rarity via FTV printings:
-Lotus Petal
-Mystical Tutor
-Goblin Lackey
-Skullclamp
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Green Sun's Zenith
-Berserk
-Strip Mine (obviously would've been banned regardless)
-Trinisphere
-Aether Vial
-Mox Diamond
-Grove of the Burnwillows
-Ancient Tomb
-Boseiju, Who Shelters All
-Dryad Arbor
-Maze of Ith
-Vesuva
-Dark Ritual
-Swords to Plowshares
-Hymn to Tourach
-Venser, Shaper's Savant
-Armageddon
-Cataclysm
-Firespout
-Rolling Earthquake
-Tinker
-Terminus
-Wrath of God

Other notable cards that are Mythic Rare via online reprints:
-All is Dust
-Bazaar of Baghdad
-Bitterblossom
-Cephalid Coliseum
-Channel
-Cursed Scroll
-Demonic Tutor
-Dream Halls
-Fastbond
-Forbidden Orchard / Oath of Druids
-Grindstone
-Knight of the Reliquary
-Mana Drain
-Memory Jar
-Mishra's Workshop
-Mox Opal
-Pernicious Deed
-Recurring Nightmare
-Smokestack
-Sol Ring (not to mention other Vintage fast mana: Moxen, Lotus, Mana Vault/Crypt, etc.)
-Survival of the Fittest
-Time Vault
-Tinker
-Tolarian Academy (would also include Gaea's Cradle)
-Vedalken Shackles
-Yawgmoth's Bargain / Will

Some decks/strategies that would cease to exist due to the elimination of certain cards:
-Storm (no Dark Ritual, Time Spiral, Past in Flames, etc.)
-Show and Tell
-Reanimator (very few worthwhile targets at normal Rare)
-Stoneforge Mystic (not having broken equipment makes her lackluster)
-Elves would be quite a lot worse without GSZ or broken Natural Order targets
-Tarmogoyf
-Dark Confidant
-Punishing Fire (worthless without Grove)
-Miracles/Counterbalance (bad without SDT)

Not having Planeswalkers, nor access to the broken and ubiquitous cards that define Vintage/Legacy/Modern whilst still allowing for a deep cardpool might make for an interesting format. We'd still have the Dual/Fetch/Wasteland scenario, but I think the format would probably go towards midrange strategies since there'd be less fast combo and efficient sweepers.

[Megadeus]

You're right, there would be a supplemental ban list to hit the cards that are obviously broken. I think I would also add Snapcaster Mage to the banned list since creatures like Tarmogoyf and Dark Confidant are banned. I'd also probably ban ubiquitous cards like Brainstorm and Lightning Bolt, considering Swords to Plowshares and Hymn to Tourach are banned.

I think I *would* include FTV, because the point of banning All Mythics is to force this hypothetical format to look quite different from existing alternatives. So getting rid of those cards would force players to play weaker alternatives, and would also eliminate some of the problematic decks.

Notable Legacy/Vintage cards banned due to their elevation to Mythic Rarity via FTV printings:
-Lotus Petal
-Mystical Tutor
-Goblin Lackey
-Skullclamp
-Sensei's Divining Top
-Green Sun's Zenith
-Berserk
-Strip Mine (obviously would've been banned regardless)
-Trinisphere
-Aether Vial
-Mox Diamond
-Grove of the Burnwillows
-Ancient Tomb
-Boseiju, Who Shelters All
-Dryad Arbor
-Maze of Ith
-Vesuva
-Dark Ritual
-Swords to Plowshares
-Hymn to Tourach
-Venser, Shaper's Savant
-Armageddon
-Cataclysm
-Firespout
-Rolling Earthquake
-Tinker
-Terminus
-Wrath of God

Other notable cards that are Mythic Rare via online reprints:
-All is Dust
-Bazaar of Baghdad
-Bitterblossom
-Cephalid Coliseum
-Channel
-Cursed Scroll
-Demonic Tutor
-Dream Halls
-Fastbond
-Forbidden Orchard / Oath of Druids
-Grindstone
-Knight of the Reliquary
-Mana Drain
-Memory Jar
-Mishra's Workshop
-Mox Opal
-Pernicious Deed
-Recurring Nightmare
-Smokestack
-Sol Ring (not to mention other Vintage fast mana: Moxen, Lotus, Mana Vault/Crypt, etc.)
-Survival of the Fittest
-Time Vault
-Tinker
-Tolarian Academy (would also include Gaea's Cradle)
-Vedalken Shackles
-Yawgmoth's Bargain / Will

Some decks/strategies that would cease to exist due to the elimination of certain cards:
-Storm (no Dark Ritual, Time Spiral, Past in Flames, etc.)
-Show and Tell
-Reanimator (very few worthwhile targets at normal Rare)
-Stoneforge Mystic (not having broken equipment makes her lackluster)
-Elves would be quite a lot worse without GSZ or broken Natural Order targets
-Tarmogoyf
-Dark Confidant
-Punishing Fire (worthless without Grove)
-Miracles/Counterbalance (bad without SDT)

Not having Planeswalkers, nor access to the broken and ubiquitous cards that define Vintage/Legacy/Modern whilst still allowing for a deep cardpool might make for an interesting format. We'd still have the Dual/Fetch/Wasteland scenario, but I think the format would probably go towards midrange strategies since there'd be less fast combo and efficient sweepers.

So you're proposing we essentially just play modern with duals and wastes? This proposed format sounds awful Tbh. You're banning a lot of sweet cards, not for their ubiquity or power level, but for their rarity. Just go play pauper

[wcm8]

So you're proposing we essentially just play modern with duals and wastes? This proposed format sounds awful Tbh. You're banning a lot of sweet cards, not for their ubiquity or power level, but for their rarity. Just go play pauper

I own a playset of pretty much every Legacy and Modern staple. I'm not proposing this format as a personal cost-saving measure; it's simply an idea about a format that's based around an arbitrary restriction, much like Tiny Leaders (CMC 3 or less) or Pauper (only Common).

Sure, many 'sweet' cards are banned in this hypothetical format, but so too are a bunch of WotC's mistakes. It would offer an alternative that's somewhere between Legacy and Modern, where overplayed and ubiquitous cards are banned.

[iamajellydonut]

where overplayed and ubiquitous cards are banned.

So that other cards can become overplayed and become ubiquitous. All of those buzzwords you're throwing around are completely relative. From concept to ideology to execution, I stand respectfully opposed.

Politeness filter engaged. -zilla

[chris_acheson]

Just go play pauper

This is my plan if my local Legacy scene fizzles out. Pauper is a lot of fun. I'm working on putting together a whole library of decks that I can use to introduce people to the format.

[wcm8]

So that other cards can become overplayed and become ubiquitous. All of those buzzwords you're throwing around are completely relative. From concept to ideology to execution, that's the dumbest fucking idea I've ever heard of.

OBVIOUSLY any format will eventually devolve into a most played/ubiquitous card/archetype. 'Non-Mythic' as a format would simply be an alternative Eternal format option. Nothing more, nothing less, and I never implied it to be such. I also never offered it as a 'solution' to the future of Legacy or anything like that, merely as an aside to the discussion in this thread regarding Eternal Formats in general. This format wouldn't appeal to everyone, in the same sense that not everyone sees the appeal of Tiny Leaders, EDH, Pauper, etc. It might appeal to the people in the B/R thread complaining about seeing Brainstorm all the time, because it would arbitrarily force players to build decks around currently lesser-played cards.

Response to flames removed. Totally reasonable points, but only gets us more off topic. Please just report the post next time. Thanks. -zilla

[Emo]

From my experience Modern has begun to attract many legacy players because modern is in a healthy state of flux right now: everyone is in the honeymoon period, rogue decks are extremely viable, and interactive decks are more prominent than have been in the past for modern. Grixis, RUG, and BUG strategies are creeping up everywhere and the modern metagame has yet to settle. This may definitely change but for right now modern has captured many brewers' imaginations and many games promise a high-level of interaction (i.e. Gerry Thompson was posting daily about the "rogue" decks that won dailys). In contrast, I do not believe Legacy is in the greatest shape even though it is the most skil-l intensive and rewarding format. Before DTT and to a much lesser extent, True-Name Nemesis, legacy had a considerable amount of diversity (I do not have hard data to back this up, I base it off the decks I observed in SCG opens I played in). The last time I was on Modo I played 4 miracle decks in a daily and then the next daily I played in, I played against was 2 omnitell decks and 2 miracle decks. Right now I belive it is almost impossible to have a Rogue brew and top 8 at a large event in Legacy.

Like many have said I believe it boils down to the financial incentives of WOTC. Modern Masters 2 sold like Hotcakes and by having WOTC and SCG promote more Modern events, Many competitive players have easier access to modern IQs and PPTQs. Sadly this is my case now. I have been to 4 modern IQs in the last two months and there has only been 1 Legacy IQ in the area. Do I like legacy more than modern? of course. But I play more modern now because 1) I know more ppl that modern (standard converts + legacy converts) and I am almost always guaranteed to find a modern IQ within 50 minutes of my area every 2 weeks.

[Admiral_Arzar]

From my experience Modern has begun to attract many legacy players because modern is in a healthy state of flux right now: everyone is in the honeymoon period, rogue decks are extremely viable, and interactive decks are more prominent than have been in the past for modern. Grixis, RUG, and BUG strategies are creeping up everywhere and the modern metagame has yet to settle. This may definitely change but for right now modern has captured many brewers' imaginations and many games promise a high-level of interaction (i.e. Gerry Thompson was posting daily about the "rogue" decks that won dailys). In contrast, I do not believe Legacy is in the greatest shape even though it is the most skil-l intensive and rewarding format. Before DTT and to a much lesser extent, True-Name Nemesis, legacy had a considerable amount of diversity (I do not have hard data to back this up, I base it off the decks I observed in SCG opens I played in). The last time I was on Modo I played 4 miracle decks in a daily and then the next daily I played in, I played against was 2 omnitell decks and 2 miracle decks. Right now I belive it is almost impossible to have a Rogue brew and top 8 at a large event in Legacy.

Like many have said I believe it boils down to the financial incentives of WOTC. Modern Masters 2 sold like Hotcakes and by having WOTC and SCG promote more Modern events, Many competitive players have easier access to modern IQs and PPTQs. Sadly this is my case now. I have been to 4 modern IQs in the last two months and there has only been 1 Legacy IQ in the area. Do I like legacy more than modern? of course. But I play more modern now because 1) I know more ppl that modern (standard converts + legacy converts) and I am almost always guaranteed to find a modern IQ within 50 minutes of my area every 2 weeks.

This actually parallels my experience on a local level. In the last 4 months or so, I have been to one Legacy IQ (the only one available). I have also played at States, a GPT, and 4 or 5 PPTQs for Modern during that same time frame. There have been other available events that I haven't attended due to laziness and/or distance that were still easily doable. Strangely enough, that Legacy IQ had similar turnout to any of the Modern events - so the player base is there. The problem is the events aren't there, and I don't see most of those players at the one weekly event that does fire consistently, so our numbers have been pretty pitiful lately.

[hymnyou]

From my experience our local scene has exploded the last couple months in Atlanta. We went from 10-15 to 26-36+. We were at the lowest numbers when SCG was in its prime. We responded to SCG changes with a stream and people are pumped in Atlanta about Legacy. We have Legacy 5 nights a week in Atlanta, including a FNM. We have IQ's every 2 months and most of us travel to events like this upcoming Eternal Weekend. Our legacy scene kicks ass- I feel blessed and I'm glad I don't have to touch Modern because I have 0 interest.

[Doishy]

Our Legacy scene (Bristol UK) is starting to take off pretty fast. Where previously we had only 1 event a month that is leaping to 3 a month on average with the playerbase building up interest. The only downside is the lack of close to home large scale events with Lille being the last proper one. A UK base large scale legacy event would be lovely :)

[jrsthethird]

I'm getting back into the game after selling out 4 years ago. I have a couple decks built on MTGO, but all I have in paper is a binder full of random playable cards I got from reasonably-priced eBay lots. I've yet to turn any of them into a deck, so I'm still clueless on what's happening in the local scene. Plus, I'm looking at an apartment in NYC and moving next month, so digging back into it here is fruitless.

It's kind of disappointing to see how it's dwindled. I'm finally getting the hang of the format the way it is now, so it hasn't been stale for me yet (although seeing the conversations on here compared to 5 years ago, I can understand the idea.).

I don't have the patience for Standard, but I'll dig into Modern eventually. Just like I'll dig into Vintage if I had the opportunity for Power. No matter what, Legacy is where my heart is and I hope I can find some decent Legacy players in NYC once I get settled in. If not, there's always MTGO. (Ugh...)

[presquepartout]

I don't get all of the Modern love in this thread. Modern is terrible.

[dzhu4500]

After following this thread for a bit, an interesting idea came to me and I'm interested to see what people think...
I think the direction modern/legacy is headed will depend on which format is healthier. I think legacy has not yet fully adapted to dig through time and thus the format is going through some growing pains and people turn to modern. When pod was in modern there was noticeably more legacy love, and I think there's potential in the future for modern to get into a rut with a bannable but not quite card. People then come back to legacy and so on and so forth, especially as "tier 1" modern gets more expensive. Thoughts?

[tianyuan2k4]

[Lord Seth]

One thing that is worth pointing out--though I don't know how much this necessarily affects things--is that Legacy starts an hour before Modern on Sunday. For anyone who's driving a significant distance to get to the tournament, the fact Modern lets them sleep an extra hour could be a factor in which they want to go to. I sure know if I was uncertain which one to go to, I'd definitely go for the later one.

Why do they start at different times, anyway? That always struck me as a bit odd. Why not start both at 10 instead of Legacy at 9 and Modern at 10?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Are you so insecure that you actually care about modern attendance vs legacy attendance?

[tianyuan2k4]

I don't have the patience for Standard, but I'll dig into Modern eventually. Just like I'll dig into Vintage if I had the opportunity for Power. No matter what, Legacy is where my heart is and I hope I can find some decent Legacy players in NYC once I get settled in. If not, there's always MTGO. (Ugh...)

It's like 20+ players on Monday weeklies in NYC (Twenty Sided Store). I hope you could find some decent challenge there. (At least you will see Roland Chang there)