everyone knows that against Miracle the best drop is Emrakul.
Gitaxian Probe and/or Thughtseize are necessary against Miracle
Emrakul is good against pretty much every deck, what a ridiculous statement.Originally Posted by Poron
Thoughtseize is good from Omni against miracles, but far, far from 'necessary'. It doesn't do anything vs Counterbalance.
for Counterbalance there is Boseiju given that no one plays Wasteland or Blood Moon against them, they just wait...
Questions about Punishing Jund: are there any sideboard cards aside from Blood Moon, Rest in Peace, and Surgical Extraction that would help mitigate this matchup?
Do people prefer to leave Counterbalance in here, or side it out?
Also, I suppose that 12-Post is just an auto-loss, unless we get mega-lucky. That said, is there any particular card we could run that would deal with them? It it just Blood Moon?
I've not actually played this MU from the Miracles side, only Jund, so take this with a grain of salt. I'm interested in other peoples boarding too.
If you have RiPs to board in, I'd keep Counterbalances. Both permanents are high impact enough to warrant a Decay. If you don't have RiPs, then I'd board out Counterbalance and strand Decays plus potential Golgari Charms. When playing Jund I never SBed Charms in G2, but would bring them in G3 if I saw RiP and CB still in the deck.
Generic removal like Council's Judgment and Wear//Tear for Liliana, Sylvan Library, Null Rod and other troublesome permanents should come in too.
Entreat was always what I was most afraid of, so put all resources into hitting land drops and keeping the board stable. I know that's easier said than done, but at least it's a goal.
As Joe nicely put it, 12-post = lunch break. Enjoy it :) If you're dead set on beating it though, the best SB cards are Ruination and Blood Moon probably. Be the maniac you always wanted to be and Ruination people, it's great fun!
Ruination is just great against 12 Posts
It's great, and hilarious. But you're not going to face 12-post anywhere near enough for it to warrant a SB slot. I'd prefer to accept the loss and have a card that's more impactful in the currant meta. SB slots are so valuable.
Poron's metagame seems to be entirely MUD and 12-Post, so as far as I can tell Ruination and Null Rod are perfect sideboard slots for him. You could also run Back to Basics but I'm not sure that's better than Blood Moon in general.
The debate is really between blood moon vs ruination. The actual argument is that you can flashback ruination, while Blood Moon can get played around if BUG player searches for Basic.
From my testing, there're just so many issues with Blood Moon. Against BUG or BURG, you don't want it in your hand due to discard, hence there's a tendency to want to float Blood Moon in the top 3. However, this can deter the original game plan if you need to break fetch to look for answer or a counter. Also, if your opponent is savvy enough, they would find at least 1 basic in the SB games, that in combination with DRS and decay, can minimize Blood Moon.
But then again, if Claudio can SB one Blood Moon and win GP with it, I guess it's good enough.
No, his metagame is whatever corner case he thinks up for the day.
I believe Blood Moon should mostly be seen as a supplemental piece. The problem with blood moon as a wincondition are:
- you need at least two blood moons to see find them regularly.
- opponent cant have:
- discard to get rid of it
- decay with mana up
- no counter
- -you cant be too far behind on board
With that being said, you need to play a 4 ponder list in order to still find removal for things that come through. I think one blood moon is the most you can play due to sideboard slots.
However the reason for playing traditional 4 ponder miracles is pure consistency, other miracles builds can be more powerful for sure. Often you just cant play the blood moon because your too far behind on board.
Blood moon is also certainly better in mentor miracles where you should always try to overload decay targets and you daze to weather the first storm.
12 Post aint even too bad with mentor. you just need to drop him turn 3 and have a couple of forces and top.
I would think of Blood Moon in a similar vein to something like Relic of Progenitus vs. decks like BUG Delver and other Decay decks. Essentially, it is a hinderance that they need to deal with. For Relic, they do this by overloading their GY to a point where it makes more sense to pop relic rather than let them get DTT or Angler or whatever mana. For Blood Moon, while BUG delver might not be able to do anything about it, as mentioned by Decan, Shardless and other control decks can play around it effectively enough.
For proper play of Blood Moon, I am reminded of Reid Duke in I think an SCG Open. He spent a very long time in the game he was playing to cultivate a board that Blood Moon can be pushed onto and be effective on. I think that the best time to place down Blood Moon is right after, say, a resolved Terminus. I'm fabricating a good situation here, ofc.
In the vein of "you need to not be behind on the board", I think the question is raised regarding whether or not Blood Moon is considered "Win More" or if it's considered another angle at which to lock your opponent out of the game. I think WRT being ahead, that you don't necessarily need to be AHEAD on the board, but you need to place the moon into play when you're almost guarenteed to stick it, and not have your opponent untap and kill you or just get rid of the moon. As long as you've been cultivating your mana base in such a way as to make the moon as effective as possible, grabbing your basics and whatnot, and making sure you are able to effectively manipulate your deck regardless, then you can always get a moon down to help prevent further pressure from your opponent and Terminus at a later time, keeping your life total in check, but using the points as a resource.
They banned Top, so now I play Grixis Delver.
My issue with Blood Moon is that it's just too awkward to have to play around yourself. The theory is that you likely run basics more than your opponent, so it hinders you but cripples them. But that's only looking at the effect it has on mana-producing lands; the real question is whether it's worth turning off your main source of shuffle effects in the hope that your opponent will get caught with their pants down. I used to think it was, but I feel like the matchups I was bringing it in against were already OK for me even without the Blood Moon. And as mentioned, having to float it on top of your deck in the first 2-3 turns is super awkward and there's a good chance you'd have to shuffle it away anyways.
So it's most effective when you (a) have it in your opening hand and can land it turn 3, and (b) are facing a deck with 0 basic lands, and (c) are facing a deck with no discard. What decks meet those criteria, other than Stoneblade (which you already are favoured against)?
I like this discussion on Blood Moon. I don't particularly like bringing the card in, either, but its effect is just so backbreaking against many decks we have unfavorable MUs against (MUD, Jund, Loam variants, 12Post, basically any unfavorable MU that relies on a greedy manabase.) I don't like using Back to Basics because I'd rather my duals tap forinstead of running on 6 lands for the rest of the game (though we can do that). BtB also doesn't stop them from making mana before never untapping, which can allow them to cast that 1 spell without
EDIT: Currently I have 2 Spell Pierces, mainly for stuff like Chalice and Library and sometimes Thoughtseize/Cabal Therapy and Lili (despite not seeing a whole ton of Legacy play right now). Would you guys advise going to a 1/1 split of Pierce/Snare? I find that a lot of the non-creature spells I care about are CMC 2 anyway (Chalice on 1 costs 2), plus being able to hit a Teeg or Bob without needing to waste a Swords seems pretty good.
Last edited by CutthroatCasual; 08-07-2015 at 03:10 PM.
I'd keep the Pierces, but I'm a huge fan of Pierce so I'm probably biased. I'm happy to Swords a Teeg or Bob if I see one early, so having my counter to a T1 Chalice or T2 Sylvan Library also counter Lilianas, Aether Vials, etc. is worth it.
I played in a small local tournament this past Saturday. It ended up being 5 rounds of Swiss with a cut to Top 4. I ran with a the stock GP Lille winner list of UWr Mentor Miracles with the following changes:
MD:
-2 Pyroblast
+1 Vendilion Clique
+1 Council’s Judgment
SB:
-1 Jace TMS
+1 Izzet Staticaster
-1 Clique
+1 REB
I figured there might not be as many Blue decks around based on previous tournaments, and lately I have been kinda unimpressed with Jace – a 4 drop is hard enough to resolve against Stifle/Wasteland/Pierce/Daze etc., and being *Blue* is actually a liability against most other Blue decks these days due to the near-ubiquity of Pyroblast. As for Staticaster, tt seems also that there are so many decks with X/1 creatures and it handles opposing Mentors without damaging your own army.
My matchups:
2-1 TES (Storm combo)
2-0 UWr Ponder Miracles
2-0 Esper Control (w/ Mentor)
2-1 UWr Mentor Miracles
1-1-1 4c Loam/Chalice (game 3 went to time, I probably would have lost, but tbh the game I lost was largely due to poor draws rather than misplays)
In top 4:
2-1 Rwb Painter (splashed for E.Tutor and SB E. Plague)
2-0 UWr Ponder Miracles
[first place!]
I am happy with the deck. I finally got to see how absurd Daze is in the list, it saved me from defeat a number of times and provided savage beatings against opponents that were tapped out for FoW. I would definitely recommend NOT cutting it from the deck, as it plays perfectly with the general design of the deck and especially with Mentor as the win condition. In fact, the 4th copy might be worth considering if you want to cut a Pyroblast from the GP Lille list.
Monastery Mentor, by the way, is an absurd card. Even if it gets killed, it leaves behind virtual copies of itself. This card pushes the deck into a whole new tier of competitiveness, as if it were Tier 1 and everything else is Tier 1.5. I know that sounds hyperbolic, but seriously… Until people start packing more copies of stuff like Dread of Night, I think Mentor is simply the best threat for a control deck to be playing in Legacy right now.
Counterbalance is likewise absurd. If an opponent burns a FoW to counter it, it's practically like a Hymn to Tourach. If it counters only 1 spell, it functions as a Counterspell. If it counters 2+, then you've achieved card advantage, if not a soft-lock. Even against decks with Abrupt Decay, it's still great -- it forces them to burn this on CB instead of Mentor, and you can always deploy multiple copies of CB anyways to lock them down. Amazing, amazingly busted card that should probably be banned (that, or SDT).
let me say that about B. Moon
it's like 3 mana win the game...so why shouldn't i play it?against all those MU like BGx deck i'll side in Vendilion wich hits Decay and than drop my Moon...probably i would go for the second copy!
Thank you Claudio.
It is so good in current meta (greeedy mana base and 3,4 colors) that I would try it even 1-1 or 0-2.
2 is a fine number anyway
If the meta goes towards more greedy manabase decks (Loam, BUG, Blade Control) then 2 in the SB seems strong. But when the DTB is Mono U Omnitell, having Moon take up more than 1 SB slot is inefficient use.
Just got back from Washington D.C.
Made Day 2 with Miracles. Decided it's not worth the time to try to cash on Day 2 after the 4th loss, spent the rest of day 2 at smithsonian museums instead.
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