Purely from a outsider opinion(since my sideboard is a bit different) I would never take all punishing fires against Miracles, even less if its Mentor Miracles. I would go with -1 PFire -2 Mox(not sure if correct against Mentor) -1 Ooze -1 Loam -1 Maze -1 Shaman. If I am really afraid of the Mentor I might bring Deluge+Charm but I am not sure its necessary.Originally Posted by pocari79
Against Grixis Control it really depends on the version. If it is the version with Shamans and Anglers I bring the Leylines, if not I wont bring them. I believe the matchup is quite good for us.
I believe you need the Deluge and Charm in this matchup
3 Punishing Fire
No way this is correct. You wanna board out like 1-2 against normal miracles, and it is better here.
1 Sylvan Library
If the deck plays out anything like normal miracles, (control rather than tempo) Library is amazing. Only cut it in matchups like infect where you literally can't take a turn off the whole game.
1 Scavenging Ooze
It is a dumb beater and you don't need dumb beaters.
2 Life from the Loam
Typically against miracles I leave 1 in. They do play non-basics and in the late-game Loam > Jace.
How have people been liking Slaughter Games against "tempo miracles"? It feels like they are actually just playing tempo against us and The T3 mentor is their biggest thing. As a non-blue deck things have to go pretty well for us to play Games before they play mentor, and afterwards the card does not help.
Still not enough testing but they feel kinda off. When you are able to cast 1 early game is great but since it goes to a more aggressive game they don't feel as awesome as they are against regular miracles
I've seen this more than a few times with regards to various match-ups, but as I have yet to take out a single Mox in any game ever, I'm still thoroughly confused. Why take out Mox Diamond against Miracles (or DnT or whatever)? I am never not thrilled to see a Mox.
In other news, as to boarding preferences...
I don't like bringing in the full complement of Leylines against any variety of Grixis. If you want to gamble with a singleton, go ahead. But Leyline is not critical in the slightest, and seeing it outside of your opening hand can be devastating for you. And God forbid you ever see multiples of it.
I liked Slaughter Games a lot more against "old Miracles" than I do against "new Miracles". I went back down to only a single copy in the sideboard after Mentor started getting to be the norm. Casting Slaugher Games and naming either Monastery Mentor or Sensei's Divining Top still feels amazing, but the old style of Miracles was such that you could just cast Slaughter Games after Slaughter Games completely at your leisure to the point where they no longer had a deck. And that's not the case anymore. Getting laden with two or three Slaughter Games isn't the slow-roll godsend it used to be. I do still bring in my one copy, but only the one.
Try hitting tokens with Punishing Fire rather than the Mentor himself. It's easy for them to defend the Mentor, but you can usually trim back the tokens fairly easily. Not the most efficient path to victory, but it will give you enough breathing room to come up with a hard solution for Mentor.
How do you make room (ie; what to cut) against 1) Reanimator and 2) Omni-Tell? I don't know what I should be pulling.
Because I'm testing this deck out AND the SB is a pile/tinkering, I just need to know what I can realistically cut for G2/3 space.
Reanimator (1-0 online) - pulled Gaddock (1), Decays (3), Pfires (3) = 7 slots
Omni (0-2 online) - pulled Pfires (3), pulled a Sylvan (1), Maze? (1) = 4 or 5 slots
Cockatrice is not a good barometer, but it certainly helps shake the rust. Beat a UWx landstandstill deck easily. This deck is just value city.
With your sideboard, I would board like this against Mentor Miracles (GP Lille Winner):
-1 Sc. Ooze
-1 Loam
-2 Mox Diamond
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Punishing Fire
+1 Rec. Sage
+1 Sl. Games
+1 Choke
+1 E. Plague
+1 S. Elemental
+1 Thalia
If you could link a sample decklist to a Grixis Control list I can also give you my opinion to that matchup ;)
@Warden:
Considering the SB suggested by pocari:
Omnitell:
-1 Maze of Ith
-3 Fire
-3 Decay
-1 Loam
-1 Liliana
-1 Ooze
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Choke
+1 Golgari Charm (I would like to have the second Charm here over the Deluge!)
+1 Plague (Do not like this, second Charm would be better to board in)
Reanimate:
-3 Fire
-2 Loam
-2 Library
-1 Teeg
-1 Decay (you need some for P. Needle)
+3 Leyline of the Void
+2 Slaughter Games
+2 Thoughtseize
+1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
@schniggaz
Do you think canonist is good vs reanimate? I usually find it lackluster, eould probably prefer sage over it
As a DNT player, how should I be siding? There's so many angles to your deck. I feel like I want 2 rip, e tutor, needle, absolute law. I play green splash so I also want library.
Is thalia and Wingmare an issue for u guys? Do I bring in aageddon? Really hoping you guys can shed some light.
I've only played the deck once
Taxing effects are good when you attack our mana, you know that we are probably shaving CotV so you wont be needing disenchants. I like RiP, Absolute Law and Needle here. If you can do a tempoish game, attack our mana with a thalia on board and another beater I think you are good to go.
Ever since GP Lille I have been playing this deck and I like it a lot. I am still having issues with the Miracles matchup. Between a few tournaments my records are 2-1, 3-0 and 2-1-2. The two losses and two draws have all been against various flavor of miracles.
I seem to win game 1 based on attrition, chalice and wastelands. Games two and three seem atrocious. The last event I lost every game two and often had <10 minutes left for game threes.
All of my game 2/3s seem to play out the same way. Since they know my general game plan, they bring in blood moon, wear/tear, rest in peace. I prefetch a forest and let blood moon resolve. Usually from there on out, I'm trying to dig for an answer to bloodmoon while they try to land a threat.
When is the best time to call it quits when you fall behind?
For games 2/3 I've been shaving loams and thinning punishing fires. I also sideboard out a knight for a Thrun, since he doesn't rely on the graveyard and requires them to find terminus pronto.
I've been boarding in: choke, Golgari charm, Thrun, rec sage and slaughter games.
- I've been unimpressed with choke. It's basically a card that slows them down but can be dealt with. Has anyone tried boil in this spot?
- Lilliana is a house against them, but near impossible to cast under a
- Likewise, if you slaughter games, what do you name? Usually their threats are well diversified, so it doesn't do much. Obviously it's good against the mentor version
- Lastly, I've been toying with the idea of changing a barren moor into a basic swamp, to help mitigate against the blood moon decks. Lands only plays two cycles, why do we play 3?
Thanks for all the responses!!! Will definitely test out all the recommendations.
@schniggaz
I am not sure what my opponent's exact grixis control list was but it did have multiple True-Name Nemesis, some Jace, Mind Sculptors, Young Pyromancers, Gurmag Anglers, Dig Through Times, Dack Fayden and no Deathrites. Game 1 I pretty much just lost to a True-Name cause I couldn't stick a Liliana to kill it and Game 2 I tapped out for no good reason and got Blood Mooned even though I had an abrupt decay in hand and was thinking I should leave up mana for it.... I did have a basic forest in play and was waiting for a Mox Diamond to cast a decay but then he played a sideboard Null Rod and that was it. I did have the turn 0 leyline against him and he said after the game that it did cripple his deck so it seems like a legit card to board in if it makes an impact like that.
@maCHOOga
I also feel like wanting to replace a cycling land with a basic swamp. In all my games during the weekend, I either pitched the cycling lands I drew to fuel the Mox Diamonds on turn 1 or I just cycled it as soon as possible to try to dig deeper in the deck. I know it's meant to save your Life from the Loam against cards like Surgical Extraction but I hardly got Loam and the cycling lands in my hand/graveyard at the same time so maybe I'm just using the cycling lands wrong?
Cycle lands
I think you guys are expecting a bit too much of individual cards. The cycle lands are there because there isn't too much else to spend a single mana on, and they make loam better in a couple of ways. It isn't "meant" for any kind of higher purpose. The reason we play 3 cycle lands and Lands plays 2 is the same reason D&T plays 4 Thalias and Maverick plays 3.
Choke V Boil
When are you playing your Choke? The card wins games. If they tap out on turn 2 and you land a choke they are basically half dead already. I'd play boil or Tsunami if they also turned all future islands into lotus petals.
Blood Moon
The "blood moon decks" all suck against us. Basically keep a fetch on the play or a mox in your opener and you win. Just getting to cast our spells against these decks is good enough. The decks that bring in moon (Miracles and Grixis) can be harder. This is mostly because blood moon is a humility for lands rather than color screw. As always, zenith for rec sage is not something they can take away from you.
If he had TNN and YoungP you definitely need the charm and deluge. When they don't rely heavily on the graveyard(Shaman+Anglers) I usually do not bring the Leylines since a ooze might hurt more and is a beater.
I am not really sure if cycle lands are meant to protect loam, for me it is only a plus. They act as an engine in the late game and I see way to many people afraid of playing them as a tapland.
I have armageddon. Is that worthwhile to bring in?
What do I side out? Random beaters? I feel like I want to leave in pridemages for library and chalice if they're still left in. Revoker on mox and knight seem good. Is teeg x3 worthwhile to bring in?
Teegs only stop 2 GSZ so they ar a no-go.
Without knowing the decklist is hard to say what to take out, and even still I do not play D&T so its kinda hard for me to know what you have to take out.
If you have crusaders they are good, mothers are obviously good, revoker are also good IMO. I have mixed feeling on the armaggedon, I think it is a bit of win more card.
I never lose against D&T when they try to out-grind me. But I lost quite a few times when they opt for a tempoish approach
Oh sorry
4 Mom
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
3 qasali
2 serra avenger
3 Revoker
2 Wingmare
3 flickerwisp
4 vial
4 stp
1 sword fire ice
Jitte
batterskull
Board
sylvan library
3 teeg
choke
1 absolute law
2 rip
3 ethersworn
1 needle
1 E Tutor
armageddon
grafdigger
Well, it is not that amazing, but I think it's fine. At least they can't go nuts in one turn by discarding a creature and reanimate in the same turn or bounce your gravehate and reanimate or cantrip into anything. Furthermore it is a creature you like to play out early to get some damage in. Rec Sage is different. You want to wait on him until there is a Needle out there and this means not getting in for a few points of damage which can definitely make the difference.
+2 Leyline of the Void
+1 Reclamation Sage
+1 Engineered Plague
+1 Choke
+1 Golgari Charm
+1 Toxic Deluge (again: second Charm would be better to randomly destroy Blood Moon)
-3 Abrupt Decay (outside of Blood Moon, there is nothing you can really hit with it, Rec. Sage and two Charm should be good enough while being more versatile)
-1 Gaddock Teeg
-1 Life from the Loam
-1 Maze of Ith
-1 Liliana of the Veil
If his list is just a few cards different, sideboarding may change a lot.
@neddsaurus:
I would not board in the Tutor. There is not a single card that says: I win the game, so the card disadvantage is not worth it.
Otherwise, I do not like giving too many advices how to sideboard against 4c-Loam. Sorry :D
@schniggaz
Thanks for the sideboard suggestions!! I am very surprised that you would want to board out all the decays and just rely on Golgari Charm (which could be countered) to deal with Blood Moon. I understand that the charm can also be used to kill true names, young pyros and the 1/1 tokens but it just feels scary when a charm could get countered when you try to destroy a blood moon as a resolved blood moon feels like it's game over unless you have a couple of mox diamonds in play already.
To the people testing out Sulfur Elemental, how has it been?
My meta does not have Mentor Miracles, and I believe we have some tools to beat mentor against other Mentor decks.
How do you guys feel about one landers?
On one hand, I am pretty aggressive about mulling subpar hands. On the other hand I'm playing 28 lands now and if there is anything I'm favored to draw...
Would you guys keep these hands? Why/why not?
1) Bayou, Zenith, Bob, Decay, Pfire, Chalice
2) Wasteland, Mox, Chalice, Knight, Zenith, Decay, Loam
3) Fetch, Chalice, Knight, Decay, 2x Loam
4) Savannah, DRS, 2x Decay, Pfire, Thicket, Scooze
1) On the play, in the bind I'd be tempted to keep. I think the more disciplined decision is to mull here, but I can see myself trying it. On the draw they will have an easier time killing the arbor so I'd mull.
2) I could be talked into keeping on the play, but I think I'd mull. On the draw it is really close and I'm not sure what I'd do.
3) Pretty uncontroversial mull on the play or the draw. you either play magic or you don't with this hand.
4) The hand is fragile and doesn't have any huge reason to keep. I'd mull both on the play and the draw.
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